StonerLOL! ^^^ Man of my word, huh?
StonerLOL! ^^^ Man of my word, huh?
The results are that he did the experiment and everything else he says to do, but the debate still isn't over. So does he need to even say?
doh!
See, I wouldn't because I already know my water source. Checking pH is a ways down on the list of things I would do to troubleshoot problems. But that's just been my personal experience.
I feel like the systems that regulate pH in organic soil are so beyond what I am able to understand, being a fairly uneducated dummy, that it's not the first thing I would dive into trying to decode. My pH going in or pH running off have never told me much because I lack the knowledge to interpret them.
Now, I'll toot my own horn here... I do consider myself a skilled grower, but I guess my skill comes in knowing how to select a fairly bombproof soil mix.
Maybe it's kinda like the difference between a golfer who is an ace under pressure and always pulls off a big shot after he's gotten himself into the rough, vs. the golfer who never gets himself into the rough. (Half kidding here, and I hate golf, but it's a good anology.)
Dig
"There have been many studies now, in many places all over the world, where individual growers have been doing the needed steps on their land to get the life in their soil balanced correctly. SFI is involved mostly with regard to testing the biology in the soil, and making sure the organisms get established and then continue to do their jobs.
In these studies, please notice I said balance, and not just numbers, or amounts. The proper BALANCE must be established for the plant desired (we have worked with just about any crop you want to talk about), then the chemistry becomes balanced.
Getting life in the soil to get soil chemistry correct DOES NOT take years. It takes weeks. If you take the steps to get life in the soil balanced correctly, chemistry falls into place.
The Ca:Mg ratio will be right in line so quickly, mineral, soluble pools will fall to medium low levels (and soil chemical salesmen will try to tell you that you won't be able to grow a plant then), but those pools will remain constant, regardless of weather, water movement, etc. Plants control the rate of cycling, and they keep the soluble soil nutrient levels at the place they need. Soluble nutrients are concentrated in the root system, not out in the soil where the nutrients will be lost through leaching.
Soil chemistry is a result of what the organisms are doing. Bad organisms, bad chemistry. The right balance of organisms means healthy plants. Stop worrying about chemicals. Worry about the life in your soil. Simple as that.
Life in the soil....... Something that "conventionally" trained soil chemists have no idea about. They were never trained to consider soil biology. You can tell right away when you talk to someone who doesn't keep up in the current information stream, they do not understand what soil life is all about. They will say things like there's no proof, or no data. That is not the case anymore. They are 10 years out-of-date.
When you get the biology correct, and you get your plants established (who feeds the biology in the soil? who knows what the correct balance is? and adjusts it minute by minute? - oh, the plant!), then the system is set up to maintain itself.
Once you make sure life in the soil is in the right ranges, then chemistry comes into line. You see maximum levels of N and P in the plant tissue, balanced with K, Na, and micros. With the right partners in the soil, plants know how to feed themselves. We just have to stop taking their soil partners away from them.
I have never seen additions of lime or gypsum ultimately, or sustainably, FIX the problems they are being added to fix.
When did addition of lime ever get your pH dealt with? You always end up having to put more on next year. Lime additions didn't solve the problem. It masked some symptoms, but didn't solve the underlying problem. pH may have been messed around with for a short period of time, but the pH problem came right back as soon as the inappropriate life that was present in that soil neutralized the lime. Chemistry by itself is a short term answer, not long term. Get the life right, and since life reproduces, the pH problem will be solved.
You need to fix the problem, which means getting the cause of the problem dealt with. "
" Let's think about what CONTROLS pH in any material where natural processes are taking place.
So, I'm NOT talking about chemistry labs. I'm not talking short-term either. Addition of pepto-bismol
to your stomach may change pH for a short time, but will never solve acid reflex or an ulcer condition.
Short term masking of symptoms never solved the underlying problem.
-------------------------------------
What causes free hydrogen ions to exist in compost, or soil or water, or any substance?
That's what pH is........simply a measurement of the amount of free hydrogen ion.
What influences and changes free hydrogen ion?
The balance of BIOLOGICAL processes.
High amounts of AEROBIC bacteria, the pH will tend to the high pH side (more hydroxide than hydrogen).
High amounts of AEROBIC fungi; pH will tend to the acidic side, but never lower than 5.5
If anaerobic bacteria and fungi (yeasts) are growing; pH will be dropping and can become very low (pH 5....4.....3....2... etc)
so, everyone understands that, correct? The chemical balance in any natural material is a
result of the ORGANISMS doing their jobs. You want to change pH long-term, and not just for a day or two?
You better change the balance of organisms in the material. Do you need more fungi? Or more bacteria?
As long as you have good amounts of bacteria and fungi, protozoa and nematodes, maybe microarthropods,
then addition of foods can select for a shift in pH in the direction you desire. So test to make sure you have a
good bunch of each.......
As long as you have to organisms, then just add simple "green" in order to enhance bacteria.
Add wide C:N materials - i.e., woody things....to enhance fungi.
=====================
Next thought: How does addition of "foods" influence pH?
What kind of food was added" Did it feed bacterial or fungi?
How much food was added?
Too much food, and the bacteria and fungi may grow so fast
that oxygen is used up faster than oxygen can diffuse into the material. the material will become
anaerobic, and then what happens to pH? Look at the statements above if you are having troubles
with that logic.
It is NOT the simple addition of food that will change pH, other than the simple, short-term pH
chemistry of the food material.
The LONG TERM effect of adding anything can only be understood by the effect it has on the
organisms present in the material.
The sooner people get some of these basics straight, the less magical all this compost, tea, extract, soil, etc becomes.
Elaine R. Ingham
President, Soil Foodweb Inc. "
" Please, please understand the effect of sulfur on fungi.
Many fungicides and nearly every fungal antibiotic used in human medicine are based on sulfur as the active ingredient.
The data we are collecting strongly implicates sulfate as an inhibitor and killer of BENEFICIAL fungi.
If you use gypsum, you are, most likely, destroying the beneficial fungal component in your growing medium.
I suggest you need to do some testing to make sure what is being done to the biology in your soil when you use gypsum. If you don't want to do testing, then STOP using gypsum.
Sources of sulfur? It is called COMPOST.
Compost, which contains high amounts of every plant nutrient required. But I'm talking COMPOST, which must, by definition, be made aerobically.
If the "scientific papers" being used to "prove" that compost doesn't contain much S, or N, or P do not document either the organisms present in the compost (i.e., the aerobic organisms), or oxygen content in the pile through the entire composting process, you cannot trust the chemical information being provided. Of course percent N, P, or K is going to be low, if putrid material is tested for N, P or S content.
Organic matter, made by plants, and composted correctly, contains more than adequate S, P or any other nutrient. Composting concentrates all mineral nutrients. How could compost, properly made, not be a good source of plant nutrients?
Compost is a better source of nutrients than any inorganic fertilizer, because all the nutrients come IN BALANCE, and does not stress the plant, or force it to take up an un-wanted nutrient (i.e., toxic levels of that nutrient), in order to take up a nutrient it lacks. The organisms in the compost make sure the nutrients are cycled, at the right rate, in the right form, at the right time, for the plant's needs.
Gypsum? We don't need it. It is a salt: it kills beneficial organisms. If you apply more than about 100 lbs of gypsum per acre, we can detect the loss of beneficials in most soils.
Sorry to be so blunt, but please, listen. And if you don't care to believe me, then at least do testing to prove it to yourself what sulfur-based chemicals do to beneficial organisms in the soil
Elaine Ingham "
The reason I threw away both of my Milwaukee brand PH meters was because often they would give readings that were way off. So I began double checking the readings on my meters with paper PH test strips every time before I made any adjustment. Not for soil but the water for my EZ-Clone. What good is a meter or two if I need to double check them with paper test strips before any adjustment?but i've never understood the notion that throwing away your pH pen is some kind of rite of passage to being a good or proper organic gardener - it's a useful piece of equipment, as is a thermometer or hygrometer.
if you run into problems with your organic grow then one thing you should look at is your water - what is its pH? does it contain chloramine?
VG.
The reason I threw away both of my Milwaukee brand PH meters was because often they would give readings that were way off. So I began double checking the readings on my meters with paper PH test strips every time before I made any adjustment. Not for soil but the water for my EZ-Clone. What good is a meter or two if I need to double check them with paper test strips before any adjustment?
I did not trust my PH meters at all so I threw them away. Not exactly a right of a passage but a way to prevent being lied to. I don't like to be lied to, by people or electronics.
hi EatMoGrass - apologies if you thought my comment was aimed at you, its based on many posts ive read on the boards.
as you say - they are no good if they dont work.
Elaine Ingham's comments are interesting but im not sure that they translate to pot grown plants that are watered with tapwater that can vary greatly. rainwater almost always has a slightly acidic pH and very low alkalinity.
i dont make teas, but presumably that process would encourage acidity?
as you say though, this would only answer the question for the person doing the testing with his/her own unique set of conditions. it wouldnt give a definitive answer to the question for everyone else because everyone's inputs are different - i.e. mainly the pH and alkalinity of their water supply.
also, as has been mentioned - there is a difference between getting away with something and having optimum conditions.
VG.
The question becomes: can soil biology in a container overcome pollution from highly alkaline water?
That's my thinking VG. The variables change when you introduce alkalinity as pollution.
How to solve the problem is another matter.
The question becomes: can soil biology in a container overcome pollution from highly alkaline water?
The question becomes: can soil biology in a container overcome pollution from highly alkaline water?
too much of anything at once is pollution. Even if only a momentary shock, that event was caused by pollution.
and the tool for measuring the degree of pollution (or lack thereof) is reading the ph