Organics and PH-Lets settle this once and for all?

[guest2012y]

LOL! ^^^ Man of my word, huh?

Stoner

 

[bakelite]

I'd like to share some of my experiences with organic soil and pH.

In my experience pH does matter with organic soil. I had been having deficiency issues on and off with organics. The pH of my tap water runs high (usually around 9.0) which doesn't help. Anyway about 2 months ago I had a bunch of Sour Bubble clones all in the same soil. They were sluggish and somewhat pale with interveinal chlorosis on the newer growth. I had suspected that pH may have been locking out some of the nutes and since I always use dolomitic lime I watered with peat water (pH ~4.5-5) knowing that it would pull the pH back up to where it should be. The plants perked right up within a few days, grew much faster and the new growth was nice dark green.

I have also found that certain ferts (chicken manure and Plant Tone) require at least a 2-3 week hold after mixing into your soil to stabilize. If used earlier they can lock out some of the micro nutes and the result is interveinal chlorosis, sometimes pretty severe. I have reason to believe that this is related to pH as well.

Anyway, just throwing in my $0.02

-bakelite

 

[fishwater]

Everyone is right here, in there own conditions. I would bet that Burn1 has been in the same area for many years, and his water is optimal for his mix and the use of dolomitic lime. He is a lucky man.
Verdant is lucky too, even though he has 9ph water like myself, he has been in the same area and knows how to adjust his water to make it work.
No one is wrong, but, YOU NEED TO LOOK AT YOUR OWN SITUATION before you use a generic soil mix.
I was using a cheap walmart dirt and did miserable. I had used the same stuff at a different location and did great.... So I started researching here. I came accross the LC mix recipie and decided after reading that ph didnt matter I would try that.

Well, my 9 ph water well water wasnt the right thing. Plants did good for about 3-4 weeks, but then after a good watering (plain well water) the next morning the lower leaves were all yellowing and burning.... fuck.....

So, I mixed some more lc mix up, with half the lime, and transplanted everyone again. AND, I STARTED USING MY CITRIC ACID AGAIN, bringing my water down to 6, giving me a runoff of 7, and things have been good ever since. Very good as a matter of fact. But I still have to ph my water.

My hat is off to Burn1 and people like him, for turning me on to the LC mix. Probably not a better combination of things to grow anything with.
My other hat is off to Verdant Green and people like him, who turned me on to the citric acid, and for having the same 9ph water as me to work with. (Although I sometimes substitute molasses for the citric acid, works great)

All of you people have taught me a lot, but it boils down to the fact that you need to figure it out yourself.

Everyones situation will vary because mainly the water they are fortunate or unfortunate enough to use is going to be a major deciding factor. If you stay in one place a long time and get your mix to the point you dont need a ph meter, more power to you... If you have to move around some, like I do, I will have my meter by my side.

I have learned my lessons the hard way, and just want to pass it along if anyone wants to listen...

Fishwater

 

[Stoned Crow]

The results are that he did the experiment and everything else he says to do, but the debate still isn't over. So does he need to even say?

doh!

My point was that some people aren't willing to do the experiment....SC

 

[VerdantGreen]

See, I wouldn't because I already know my water source. Checking pH is a ways down on the list of things I would do to troubleshoot problems. But that's just been my personal experience.

I feel like the systems that regulate pH in organic soil are so beyond what I am able to understand, being a fairly uneducated dummy, that it's not the first thing I would dive into trying to decode. My pH going in or pH running off have never told me much because I lack the knowledge to interpret them.

Now, I'll toot my own horn here... I do consider myself a skilled grower, but I guess my skill comes in knowing how to select a fairly bombproof soil mix.

Maybe it's kinda like the difference between a golfer who is an ace under pressure and always pulls off a big shot after he's gotten himself into the rough, vs. the golfer who never gets himself into the rough. (Half kidding here, and I hate golf, but it's a good anology.)

Dig

hey Dig, again i agree with most of what you say :-

1. there is no substitute for a good soil mix - that is the most important thing in organics. i feel i have a good one and it has served me well for a wide range of genetics - i expect a lot from mine because i seldom add any nutes during the grow, i have never made teas or bubbled anything for my plants ever.

2. given that you've got the soil mix right, make sure you know what you are putting in to it - including the pH and alkalinity of your water source - anywhere around 6 or 7 is not likely to need any adjustment. (i have never pH'ed runoff in my life - just the water that goes in)

if you get those two things right as well as the environment then the rest should follow.

VG

 

[VerdantGreen]

also i should say that this discussion shows we have come a long way.

6 months ago i felt like i was the only person who was prepared to own up to pHing my water on the organic forum.

 

[Microbeman]

I don't agree with everything Elaine Ingham has to say but I agree with most of the following which are excerpts from posts she has written having something to say about pH.

"There have been many studies now, in many places all over the world, where individual growers have been doing the needed steps on their land to get the life in their soil balanced correctly. SFI is involved mostly with regard to testing the biology in the soil, and making sure the organisms get established and then continue to do their jobs.

In these studies, please notice I said balance, and not just numbers, or amounts. The proper BALANCE must be established for the plant desired (we have worked with just about any crop you want to talk about), then the chemistry becomes balanced.

Getting life in the soil to get soil chemistry correct DOES NOT take years. It takes weeks. If you take the steps to get life in the soil balanced correctly, chemistry falls into place.

The Ca:Mg ratio will be right in line so quickly, mineral, soluble pools will fall to medium low levels (and soil chemical salesmen will try to tell you that you won't be able to grow a plant then), but those pools will remain constant, regardless of weather, water movement, etc. Plants control the rate of cycling, and they keep the soluble soil nutrient levels at the place they need. Soluble nutrients are concentrated in the root system, not out in the soil where the nutrients will be lost through leaching.

Soil chemistry is a result of what the organisms are doing. Bad organisms, bad chemistry. The right balance of organisms means healthy plants. Stop worrying about chemicals. Worry about the life in your soil. Simple as that.

Life in the soil....... Something that "conventionally" trained soil chemists have no idea about. They were never trained to consider soil biology. You can tell right away when you talk to someone who doesn't keep up in the current information stream, they do not understand what soil life is all about. They will say things like there's no proof, or no data. That is not the case anymore. They are 10 years out-of-date.

When you get the biology correct, and you get your plants established (who feeds the biology in the soil? who knows what the correct balance is? and adjusts it minute by minute? - oh, the plant!), then the system is set up to maintain itself.

Once you make sure life in the soil is in the right ranges, then chemistry comes into line. You see maximum levels of N and P in the plant tissue, balanced with K, Na, and micros. With the right partners in the soil, plants know how to feed themselves. We just have to stop taking their soil partners away from them.

I have never seen additions of lime or gypsum ultimately, or sustainably, FIX the problems they are being added to fix.

When did addition of lime ever get your pH dealt with? You always end up having to put more on next year. Lime additions didn't solve the problem. It masked some symptoms, but didn't solve the underlying problem. pH may have been messed around with for a short period of time, but the pH problem came right back as soon as the inappropriate life that was present in that soil neutralized the lime. Chemistry by itself is a short term answer, not long term. Get the life right, and since life reproduces, the pH problem will be solved.

You need to fix the problem, which means getting the cause of the problem dealt with. "

" Let's think about what CONTROLS pH in any material where natural processes are taking place.

So, I'm NOT talking about chemistry labs. I'm not talking short-term either. Addition of pepto-bismol
to your stomach may change pH for a short time, but will never solve acid reflex or an ulcer condition.
Short term masking of symptoms never solved the underlying problem.

-------------------------------------

What causes free hydrogen ions to exist in compost, or soil or water, or any substance?

That's what pH is........simply a measurement of the amount of free hydrogen ion.

What influences and changes free hydrogen ion?

The balance of BIOLOGICAL processes.

High amounts of AEROBIC bacteria, the pH will tend to the high pH side (more hydroxide than hydrogen).

High amounts of AEROBIC fungi; pH will tend to the acidic side, but never lower than 5.5

If anaerobic bacteria and fungi (yeasts) are growing; pH will be dropping and can become very low (pH 5....4.....3....2... etc)

so, everyone understands that, correct? The chemical balance in any natural material is a
result of the ORGANISMS doing their jobs. You want to change pH long-term, and not just for a day or two?

You better change the balance of organisms in the material. Do you need more fungi? Or more bacteria?

As long as you have good amounts of bacteria and fungi, protozoa and nematodes, maybe microarthropods,
then addition of foods can select for a shift in pH in the direction you desire. So test to make sure you have a
good bunch of each.......

As long as you have to organisms, then just add simple "green" in order to enhance bacteria.

Add wide C:N materials - i.e., woody things....to enhance fungi.

=====================

Next thought: How does addition of "foods" influence pH?

What kind of food was added" Did it feed bacterial or fungi?

How much food was added?

Too much food, and the bacteria and fungi may grow so fast
that oxygen is used up faster than oxygen can diffuse into the material. the material will become
anaerobic, and then what happens to pH? Look at the statements above if you are having troubles
with that logic.

It is NOT the simple addition of food that will change pH, other than the simple, short-term pH
chemistry of the food material.

The LONG TERM effect of adding anything can only be understood by the effect it has on the
organisms present in the material.

The sooner people get some of these basics straight, the less magical all this compost, tea, extract, soil, etc becomes.


Elaine R. Ingham
President, Soil Foodweb Inc. "

" Please, please understand the effect of sulfur on fungi.

Many fungicides and nearly every fungal antibiotic used in human medicine are based on sulfur as the active ingredient.

The data we are collecting strongly implicates sulfate as an inhibitor and killer of BENEFICIAL fungi.

If you use gypsum, you are, most likely, destroying the beneficial fungal component in your growing medium.

I suggest you need to do some testing to make sure what is being done to the biology in your soil when you use gypsum. If you don't want to do testing, then STOP using gypsum.

Sources of sulfur? It is called COMPOST.

Compost, which contains high amounts of every plant nutrient required. But I'm talking COMPOST, which must, by definition, be made aerobically.

If the "scientific papers" being used to "prove" that compost doesn't contain much S, or N, or P do not document either the organisms present in the compost (i.e., the aerobic organisms), or oxygen content in the pile through the entire composting process, you cannot trust the chemical information being provided. Of course percent N, P, or K is going to be low, if putrid material is tested for N, P or S content.

Organic matter, made by plants, and composted correctly, contains more than adequate S, P or any other nutrient. Composting concentrates all mineral nutrients. How could compost, properly made, not be a good source of plant nutrients?

Compost is a better source of nutrients than any inorganic fertilizer, because all the nutrients come IN BALANCE, and does not stress the plant, or force it to take up an un-wanted nutrient (i.e., toxic levels of that nutrient), in order to take up a nutrient it lacks. The organisms in the compost make sure the nutrients are cycled, at the right rate, in the right form, at the right time, for the plant's needs.

Gypsum? We don't need it. It is a salt: it kills beneficial organisms. If you apply more than about 100 lbs of gypsum per acre, we can detect the loss of beneficials in most soils.

Sorry to be so blunt, but please, listen. And if you don't care to believe me, then at least do testing to prove it to yourself what sulfur-based chemicals do to beneficial organisms in the soil

Elaine Ingham "

 

[EatMoGrass]

but i've never understood the notion that throwing away your pH pen is some kind of rite of passage to being a good or proper organic gardener - it's a useful piece of equipment, as is a thermometer or hygrometer.
if you run into problems with your organic grow then one thing you should look at is your water - what is its pH? does it contain chloramine?

VG.

The reason I threw away both of my Milwaukee brand PH meters was because often they would give readings that were way off. So I began double checking the readings on my meters with paper PH test strips every time before I made any adjustment. Not for soil but the water for my EZ-Clone. What good is a meter or two if I need to double check them with paper test strips before any adjustment?
I did not trust my PH meters at all so I threw them away. Not exactly a right of a passage but a way to prevent being lied to. I don't like to be lied to, by people or electronics.

 

[treefrog]

I don't remember what thread it was, but there is a person that goes by "Smurf", I think. They use nothing but compost tea for the entire grow. Those plants not only looked fantastic, but confirm the "all you need is compost" attitude as expressed by Elaine R. Ingham

When are they going to make a $20 pen that will measure the balance and population size of bacteria and fungi?!

 

[Clackamas Coot]

In the classic Steve Martin movie 'The Jerk' the scene in the restaurant where he's holding a cocktail in one hand (with the little umbrella) and pointing at it with his other hand with a really goofy look on his face as he faces the audience/camera.

That moronic expression seems to be the one that you find with the chemical-cocktail grower crowd. "I don't care if my pot has Floramine on it as long as it's PH neutral!"

Sometimes some of the gibberish from the original 'how to grow dope books' from 30 years ago still persists much to the delight of 'da dude' down at Hydro-Schtick Stupidy who appear to make a ton of money by first selling the customer a legitimate problem with their substandard products complete with PH imbalances, mediocre EWC/compost with very low levels of microbial activity, gnats, fleas, etc. so that that the new grower looks to the very same companies for a solution.

Beautiful - sell you the problem and then sell you the solution. It certainly explains why so many indoor garden clerks are former used car salesman, life insurance reps, day traders, a former career working the glory hole at a local Grecian steam bath house, etc.

CC

 

[VerdantGreen]

The reason I threw away both of my Milwaukee brand PH meters was because often they would give readings that were way off. So I began double checking the readings on my meters with paper PH test strips every time before I made any adjustment. Not for soil but the water for my EZ-Clone. What good is a meter or two if I need to double check them with paper test strips before any adjustment?
I did not trust my PH meters at all so I threw them away. Not exactly a right of a passage but a way to prevent being lied to. I don't like to be lied to, by people or electronics.

hi EatMoGrass - apologies if you thought my comment was aimed at you, its based on many posts ive read on the boards.

as you say - they are no good if they dont work.

Elaine Ingham's comments are interesting but im not sure that they translate to pot grown plants that are watered with tapwater that can vary greatly. rainwater almost always has a slightly acidic pH and very low alkalinity.

i dont make teas, but presumably that process would encourage acidity?

 

[ISP_SmokeTrain]

The water and amendments you add to a tea, help determine wheter is is more acidic or alkaline. Over time as your tea is oxygenated, the pH does shift, then it reaches a point where it becomes stable. I measure before, during and after. But never use chemical pH up or pH down. Instead, I use a different amendment to raise or lower the pH in the desired range. It takes a little more time, but is worth it, IMHO. I prefer optimal conditions, not just adequate.

 

[mad librettist]

hi EatMoGrass - apologies if you thought my comment was aimed at you, its based on many posts ive read on the boards.

as you say - they are no good if they dont work.

Elaine Ingham's comments are interesting but im not sure that they translate to pot grown plants that are watered with tapwater that can vary greatly. rainwater almost always has a slightly acidic pH and very low alkalinity.

i dont make teas, but presumably that process would encourage acidity?

That's my thinking VG. The variables change when you introduce alkalinity as pollution.

How to solve the problem is another matter.

The question becomes: can soil biology in a container overcome pollution from highly alkaline water?

 

[Guest423]

as you say though, this would only answer the question for the person doing the testing with his/her own unique set of conditions. it wouldnt give a definitive answer to the question for everyone else because everyone's inputs are different - i.e. mainly the pH and alkalinity of their water supply.
also, as has been mentioned - there is a difference between getting away with something and having optimum conditions.

VG.

Hey, we have a winner!!

 

[BrotherGanja]

In My Experience PH balance wasn't needed but it definetly depends on the PH of the water you are starting with. I have water at 7.0 so it is balanced to begin with and after adding Molasses, Roots Trinity, Guano, EWC and Maxicrop sea kelp it goes down to 6.4-6.5. If you are growing organic I would still suggest buying a PH Meter and use organic PH buffers.

 

[Stoned Crow]

The question becomes: can soil biology in a container overcome pollution from highly alkaline water?

How do you water ML? I like to water 2x week, and I water until it comes out the bottom holes. How much pollution do you think can build up if you're not using fertilizer infused salts?.......SC

 

[VerdantGreen]

That's my thinking VG. The variables change when you introduce alkalinity as pollution.

How to solve the problem is another matter.

The question becomes: can soil biology in a container overcome pollution from highly alkaline water?

i think i said this earlier in the thread, but i dont see it as pollution. i see it as a solution of essential nutrients that needs pH correction before use
Power Plant is a strain that is very susceptible to Magnesium deficiency - but ive never seen it in my grows - probably thanks to my water alkalinity and the dolomite lime in the soil mix.

VG

 

[mad librettist]

too much of anything at once is pollution. Even if only a momentary shock, that event was caused by pollution.

it's emotionally neutral in my sense.

and yes, today's pollution can become tomorrow's nutrient.

 

[xmobotx]

The question becomes: can soil biology in a container overcome pollution from highly alkaline water?

essentially, it depends on how much pollution one's water source may be

too much of anything at once is pollution. Even if only a momentary shock, that event was caused by pollution.

and the tool for measuring the degree of pollution (or lack thereof) is reading the ph

so once again, in the absence of pollution, we don't need the meter - but, when a problem presents itself it becomes time for the detective work

 

[mad librettist]

and the tool for measuring the degree of pollution (or lack thereof) is reading the ph

not necessarily. Some are tipped off by a fucked up plant.