as i read and read and read, i get about a 50/50 consensus on whether PH is an issue when it comes to organic soils and nutrient mixes. can we finally settle this for once and for all?
Organics and PH-Lets settle this once and for all?
- Thread starter intotheunknown
- Start date
Organics and PH-Lets settle this once and for all?
Best wishes on that!
Best wishes on that!
My answer is simple: pH is important. period.
do you need to worry about it? rarely - in some cases you are stuck with some difficult inputs - like water with a very high pH. some report they have problems unless they bring it down.
does the pH of the medium overall matter? only insofar as it relates to the pH in the rhizosphere. the greater the difference between the target pH in the rhizosphere and the pH of your medium, the more the microbes have to do.
How do you tell if the rhizosphere pH is off? look at the damn plant. if it looks like shit maybe it's off.
do you need to worry about it? rarely - in some cases you are stuck with some difficult inputs - like water with a very high pH. some report they have problems unless they bring it down.
does the pH of the medium overall matter? only insofar as it relates to the pH in the rhizosphere. the greater the difference between the target pH in the rhizosphere and the pH of your medium, the more the microbes have to do.
How do you tell if the rhizosphere pH is off? look at the damn plant. if it looks like shit maybe it's off.
Honestly, pH is a complex thing in soil-water substrate, and it all comes to down to chemical reactions at the molecular level that create electrically charged bonds (ionic bonds) within the medium.
To settle it once and for all, pH is NOT an issue in a proper mix, proper mix meaning a mix that has a balanced levels of organic matter, humus, drainage, and pH buffering capability (not to mention nutrients, micros, etc etc).
Too little (and in some cases too much) of any of those things and the ability of your medium to buffer potential acidity (and alkalinity) will/can be compromised, this is true for any medium.
When it comes to soil pH I've learned that lime is not a fix all, but only a buffer, and as a buffer it can only take you so far, your pH and pH fluctuations have more to due with organic matter content and organic reactions in your mix affecting hydrogen and aluminum contents.
Lime just buffers the active acidity, if you're getting pH fluctuations in your mix/medium, it's time to revisit the mix and determine if some issue in your medium is causing these fluctuations.
After all my reading and learning on this subject, and I've spent a LOT OF TIME researching it, I've come to the conclusion that as I mentioned above it's all about balance, and balance starts with the right mix.
Mix it right, water it right, feed it right, and you're golden.
My $0.02
To settle it once and for all, pH is NOT an issue in a proper mix, proper mix meaning a mix that has a balanced levels of organic matter, humus, drainage, and pH buffering capability (not to mention nutrients, micros, etc etc).
Too little (and in some cases too much) of any of those things and the ability of your medium to buffer potential acidity (and alkalinity) will/can be compromised, this is true for any medium.
When it comes to soil pH I've learned that lime is not a fix all, but only a buffer, and as a buffer it can only take you so far, your pH and pH fluctuations have more to due with organic matter content and organic reactions in your mix affecting hydrogen and aluminum contents.
Lime just buffers the active acidity, if you're getting pH fluctuations in your mix/medium, it's time to revisit the mix and determine if some issue in your medium is causing these fluctuations.
After all my reading and learning on this subject, and I've spent a LOT OF TIME researching it, I've come to the conclusion that as I mentioned above it's all about balance, and balance starts with the right mix.
Mix it right, water it right, feed it right, and you're golden.
My $0.02
50/50?
Where you getting that number? I have never really came out of a post on organics feeling I need to get some PH drops or a meter.
I have a meter, but I don't use it. What's the point
Water from the tap is 6.8 then it's down 6.3 when I bubble. Gonna give it some kelp.... ohh shit the PH is 10.5 (seriously) then I use some protekt and something else I cant remember and it was 4.9. Then run it through my soil and get what PH?
If the soil mix is sound, with enough diversity then PH shouldn't need to be checked.
I made my first soil mix recently that is water only. Couple people telling me to take the batteries out of my meter.
Nope, I had to check everything out at first. After 2 days of wringing my hands I gave up on the PH. Now I just throw water at em and they are the healthiest plants I've grown.
Water going in, depending on any additives has PH'd at 4.8-10.5 over the last couple weeks.
Smiley
Where you getting that number? I have never really came out of a post on organics feeling I need to get some PH drops or a meter.
I have a meter, but I don't use it. What's the point
Water from the tap is 6.8 then it's down 6.3 when I bubble. Gonna give it some kelp.... ohh shit the PH is 10.5 (seriously) then I use some protekt and something else I cant remember and it was 4.9. Then run it through my soil and get what PH?
If the soil mix is sound, with enough diversity then PH shouldn't need to be checked.
I made my first soil mix recently that is water only. Couple people telling me to take the batteries out of my meter.
Nope, I had to check everything out at first. After 2 days of wringing my hands I gave up on the PH. Now I just throw water at em and they are the healthiest plants I've grown.
Water going in, depending on any additives has PH'd at 4.8-10.5 over the last couple weeks.
Smiley
we left out polysaccharides here... It's not just stuff you put in that changes pH. And it's not even throughout the mix. More sugar from the roots means more bacteria means more polysaccharides means higher pH means nitrifying bacteria convert NH4 to NO3. Oddly this happens only at 7.0 and above, cannabis prefers NO3, yet organic guys continue to state MJ likes 6.5. ??? You guessed right if you guessed most of the cannabis growing world is clueless, but lucky for us the plant is quite smart.
I never have checked pH, BUT...
How big is your container? If you put water full of alkaline salts, where is diffusion taking those salts? Nowhere. It's a simple pollution issue. You have to find some solution, whether biological or chemical or both.
I never have checked pH, BUT...
How big is your container? If you put water full of alkaline salts, where is diffusion taking those salts? Nowhere. It's a simple pollution issue. You have to find some solution, whether biological or chemical or both.
Castelvetro
Member
decent mix n a tbs of lime n most are off to the races. if your water is terribly of the normal range and is ultra high or extremly low in ph youll have problems though. most tap is alkaline, spring ,snow n rain water is a 6. Ph is important but get your mix right first. then tackle your water.
well i believe ive got my mix down right.
using LC's mix, 6 parts promix hp, 2 parts EWC, 2 parts perlite, @ 3 qts per part= 1 cup sunleaves soil sweetener (pow. dolomite lime). i am as well using guanos, ewc, kelp, liquid karma, and black strap with bubbled tap water, and getting a decent amount of foam.
using #3 containers, because that is a good point, and i did think about the fact of diffusion, so i gave my 6wk old clones some room from the start for that very reason.
i have as well done A LOT of reading and came to the conclusion to use these mixes seeing it made the most sense to me.
and im here to get some reassurance and possibly help reassure others that i or they should or shouldnt waste time and money with RIDICULOUSLY priced ph pens and testers, and just go with the flow and simply follow directions. however may it be a good move to invest in at least a water ph tester?
50/50 comes from basically reading the entire organics for beginners thread. then going back to reading a sticky in the infirmary called the complete guide to sick plants and ph, among many many other threads etc. and thats where things start to get confusing. and im almost positive im not the only one.
A great question. Let me first say that I have a great deal of respect for a lot of the members that frequent these forums, and have received a lot of helpful advice from members who frequent this sub-forums (Organics).
That said, some members may disagree with the following, but I've found it to be beneficial all around.
In my experience it's better to know than to not know, and the only way to overcome a problem is to educate yourself on the subject.
My first time that I run a mix I watch the pH of my runoff as it will tell me how my mix is doing in terms of buffering capabilities. This is less of an issue if you pH balance the nutrient solutions that go into your mix as if there is no acidity in your solution (in) then there's no reason to believe a balanced solution would affect the acidity of your mix. That said I've stopped pH-ing the nutrient solutions that go into my mix as I'm confident in my soils buffering capability.
AFter my first run, provided I didn't notice any pH drift, it's safe to assume the mix is good to go, and it's no longer necessary to pH anything as the mix has already proven itself.
Yeah but there's a price for everything. When I looked at pH pens, I quickly concluded the price was fucking insane for something I really don't need to know. I got some real nice pH paper to use when I ferment EM.
Yah I don't use pens either, same reason. I just use the drop testing kit, it was like $10.00 or something, lasts a long time.
so do you guys think the size of a container has an influence on how sensitive the system is to pH destabilization (just making that up, don't know what you would call that)?
N/M
I do, but it's proportional, meaning provided the mix is still the same the volume of mix used shouldn't influence pH balance. The mix still has the same amounts of reserve and active acidity . . . so the volume shouldn't influence those values.
my 1st grow was messed up by hi PH well water - essentially, it was an unknown variable and when the plants suffered, i had to do some detective work (minus the awesome resources we have w/ sites like this one - no internetz)
well, i figured it out using cheapie PH drops - minus which who knows when it gets solved?
only problem? PH through the roof
so, switching to distilled, i finished those plants out and got a smallish harvest (but a harvest)
also, when i assemble together the resources i will be using since then, i make sure not to get blindsided by this kind of variable. my tapwater is good now and i use rainwater as well.
all that having been said, i havent needed to test PH since that 1st derail (except making sure i am not causing the same thing again)
my take? w/ organic mixes, the buffers (such as lime) should keep your rhizosphere within wanted ranges. mixing appropriate amounts of amendments helps too - as does aging the mix
as long as there's no problems you cant figure readily, you will not need to monitor PH
well, i figured it out using cheapie PH drops - minus which who knows when it gets solved?
only problem? PH through the roof
so, switching to distilled, i finished those plants out and got a smallish harvest (but a harvest)
also, when i assemble together the resources i will be using since then, i make sure not to get blindsided by this kind of variable. my tapwater is good now and i use rainwater as well.
all that having been said, i havent needed to test PH since that 1st derail (except making sure i am not causing the same thing again)
my take? w/ organic mixes, the buffers (such as lime) should keep your rhizosphere within wanted ranges. mixing appropriate amounts of amendments helps too - as does aging the mix
as long as there's no problems you cant figure readily, you will not need to monitor PH
microgram
Member
You sure do, definitely not as much as you'd need it in a synthetic grow. There's a reason why MOST people have one. Coming from a chemistry background, you'd be stupid not to have one. You may not need to use it every time you water your girls (I would, I don't trust city workers), but it's a good idea to establish the range in which you're girls are comfortable with. Not correcting severe PH issues brings on an assortment of huge problems, everything from tiny craptasticular buds, hermies, dead plants.
Like I've read over and over and over again: Simple problems can be fixed with adjusting the PH.
Sure my e-penis isn't big, but for all you who suffer over and over again just because you don't want to test your grow, well, best of luck.
Like I've read over and over and over again: Simple problems can be fixed with adjusting the PH.
Sure my e-penis isn't big, but for all you who suffer over and over again just because you don't want to test your grow, well, best of luck.
Then coming from a biology background, you'd be stupid to approach this from a purely chemistry background. You should also know that testing "the stuff that leaves" does not necessarily say anything accurate about "the stuff that stays". Of course, I know better than to say stupid. My e-penis is massive too. Helps me feel less average.
Anyway, if grows keep failing, exploring all avenues is wise. What if they keep succeeding though?
alot depends on your soil mix. if it includes lime and wormcastings humic and fulvic acid ect then i have seen no benefit to adjusting ph. if i was just using plain soil then i adjust ph.
i threw away all my ph meters. ph is for chem guys. not needed in a well balanced organic soil with all the goodies. i used to have greenhouses and i experimented alot. your results may vary. if in doubt then ph your solution. different strokes for different folks.
