What Male to use in a cross?

[chef]

nice g13 tip, have needed that tool before.

I figured there was something there after seeing OJD's work recently.

 

[VerdantGreen]

not so sure about g13 being 'transparent'

MMG is sharksbreath x g13haze i believe and the g13 adds a lot more hazyness and speediness to the mix. and the 'white' genes in sharksbreath are pretty dominant usually...

 

[GreenintheThumb]

First of all, welcome back. I'm glad they were true to their word and let you return. For a minute I figured you'd 'slip their mind.'

RE:experimental errors in the 'tent'.

Your tent thing and the intense planting would induce
serious levels of experimental error if this was a SELECTION generation or a PROGENY EVALUATION generation, but since you are just Open Populating the seedlings with LOW to NO SELECTION, that would be fine. Its better than anything anyone else in this group is doing right now.
I got hung up on the idea that you were evaluating plants in the tent.(you actually did but it was supposedly light) As it looks now, you were just making seeds for money and that was a PHOTO opportunity to enhance the sales. Please CLARIFY that.

How do you feel about his assertion that a crowded tent won't effect his ability to appropriately select for resin production?

RE: The forum Gypsy offered.

I flat out told Gypsy that if I led and moderated a forum on cannabis genetic conservation/breeding, the first topic in the forum was going to likely be about him and genetic erosion. I said that The Seedbiz was currently so lacky that I could send in some bag seeds and give it a cultivar name, and it would get typical favorable icmag grower reviews. My nick was banned in minutes; My last post deleted.

Do people really think Im going to cave-in and begin going along, hand-in-hand, with the HACK SEED BIZZ because I was offered a stupid forum? What a WEAK OFFER. Its not going to happen like that.

So dont give me this rhetoric about how I dont want to help cannabis and how I declined such a 'hugely generous offer'. That "offer" was empty.
I Love Cannabis more than everyone under-estimates.... It is the Love of my life, and anyone who knows me personally would corraborate that.
That forum offer was just Gypsy throwing smoke and mirrors into a good discussion that was developing about HIM at the time. Did that really slip past you, VerdantGreen? dammit.

I guess the smoke/mirrors worked a little because a couple members thought I should have jumped at the chance to have "my very own forum", but maybe they dont understand that that wasnt going to happen anyway: You see...If I had begun the forum and the First topic, it is CERTAIN that the forum would be manipulated by Admin, or certain posts muted from viewing like they did to 'hyb', or deleted within hours. It would have been an exercise in futility, people. If you dont recognize the truth in all of this, then these off-topic explanations are wasted on you.

Hahahhaha, I was curious what broke the camel's back. I do want to say I believe you should have taken Gypsy up on his offer. You have a lot to offer this community and perhaps THE BEST thing you could do for the pool you love so much would be to help educate those around us. I find a little strange logic in your idea of what would happen if you were to take up the offer. Surely if they wanted you gone and all your posts deleted, it would have happened. They can just as easily censor you in this thread as in your own forum. In fact, I'd say it's easier in here. Give it some thought.

GitT,
If I passed out one single clone to 10 growers, (which I certainly have seen my clones come back as finished herb), there would be what I consider 'significant phenotypic differences' among the herb samples. You must be kidding to think that all grow rooms are the same. I bet mine is quite different than yours! No two growers have the exact same room, the same environment OUTSIDE the room, flooring, lighting, insulation, environmental controls,
fertilizers, water schedules, media, etc etc etc.: ALL contributions to Experimental Errors, and why you dont select across 200 different growrooms if you want any genetic gain from Selection. Any plant breeding book will tell us that.
Cannabis shows huge plasticity from small changes in environment. In a case where individuals are spread out into multiple differnet environments, there is experimental error in the selection process. Its not "darts at a glossary". lmao. Experimental error is something that real breeders consider. Maybe its a new term for some people 'round here.

Okay, certainly I agree with you. I never said anything about making selections in dozens of different grow rooms, did I? I will say overall, indoor grows are VERY similar. Overall we're selecting (ha, if you want to call it that) for a very narrow environment. Do you worry about this effecting long term adaptability? Or do you think when legalization comes most of these indoor hybrids will just be trashed for outdoor grows anyway.

btw, "shaking babies" is a humorous metaphor for inspiring CANDID debate through aggitation, ya damn crybabies. You dont like the phrase?

WWWWWAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHH!

"shaking seedmaking babies" gets more mileage than outlining un-reachable longterm breeding methods to people who cant even legally perform any, and usually dont have the appropriate facility ANYWAY. Most armchair plant breeders that come to these forums will never UNDERSTAND enough about plant genetics and plant breeding to improve ONE seedline. Ill leave that job to you Tom. Been there;done it.

Well, I really wanted to get into your thoughts about the future of the industry post legalization. But since you claim to have improved a seedline maybe you could just explain how you did it in the current legal environment and without running huge numbers

p.s. I re-post this section again, to reiterate what is my immediate goal, since there seems to be confusion and short-term memory issues..... The goal was never to single you out, Tom. You just happened to take up the cause for the immoral majority.

REPOSTTo Tom Hill)

"My goal is bigger than your few seed hackjobs and one apparent open pollination.

Im getting off track by your labored attempts to justify your personal gene pool actions, when there is a far more important goal. This isnt about You. Youre just the guy who felt the most need to justify his contribution.
Its about the speed hacking seedmarket, that encourages cannabis genepool erosion. And an attempt to re-evaluate what is an approved method of seedmaking and what is no longer approved..And hopefully get people to accept the changes in order to benefit drug cannabis, not just the pimps and the amateur seed hacks.

My focus should be returned to asking for YOUR SUPPORT(et.al.) in making real changes in the gene-eroding seedmarket, in the name of Cannabis. If you decline, then you decline. good bye.

Do you want to HELP make a difference on a scale that is bigger than you? If you dont want to help, ok, youre done here. Sit back and enjoy watching others take the wand, for a run around this hack fest."

havagoodone

I asked it before and I'll ask it again. When we join hyb's Super Friends, what's the plan? How do we help make a difference on a bigger scale? I think you've spoken volumes on what not to do but very little on what we can do tomorrow. I admit the discussion has to start where it did but perhaps we should move it forward before some asshole decides to ban you again.

Welcome back my friend, this place is way more boring without you.

 

[Raco]

nvisionary,
Tom edits his posts more than often ...in fact,he edits his post all the time hehe
I think he´s a perfeccionist and I also believe that he has a lot of respect for you.

 

[JJScorpio]

nvisionary, you're not the brightest bulb on the Christmas tree, are ya?

Seeings you're ban didn't get through to you, let me spell it out. If you can't post without being rude let me know now and I'll save you the headache and ban you now. There's no need for you to even be speaking with Tom. Is that clear? Every post you make sounds like one thing or another I've read in books. Use your own material for once. You're not snowing everyone with your jealous gibberish.

I'm sick of the complaints regarding your attitude. One more thing and your ass is gone. Clear enough? Your attitude is depressing and your posts are always rude. You've had fair warning.

 

[englishrick]

i wish N-Vishon woulda just cut to the chase and explained exactly how to improve 1 seedline atleast,,,,,,

step1 .....obtain germplasm

step 2 ,,,,,get pised off with germplasm

all the way to the end,,,,,

 

[GreenintheThumb]

nvisionary, you're not the brightest bulb on the Christmas tree, are ya?

Seeings you're ban didn't get through to you, let me spell it out. If you can't post without being rude let me know now and I'll save you the headache and ban you now. There's no need for you to even be speaking with Tom. Is that clear? Every post you make sounds like one thing or another I've read in books. Use your own material for once. You're not snowing everyone with your jealous gibberish.

I'm sick of the complaints regarding your attitude. One more thing and your ass is gone. Clear enough? Your attitude is depressing and your posts are always rude. You've had fair warning.

Incase you're too busy reading those books to notice, Tom doesn't have a problem getting in a heated discussion with nvisionary. It's the ignorant noobs who frequent this site that have the problem. Maybe you should ban those people instead?

Banning people for depressing attitudes? WTF is going on in this place?

 

[englishrick]

tom seemed to thrive ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, so did N-Vishon,....

this WAS an amazing thread

in chess,,,, the only way to improve is to play a better aponent!

 

[GreenintheThumb]

They just deleted his post...

What did he even say in there that merited deletion? What the hell? He didn't even shit on anyone.

 

[nvisionary]

PM me if you want to see the post. It will make you smarter.

 

[VerdantGreen]

CANDID debate through agitation

hi nvisionary - nice to see you back - i think you just came up with your new siggy line i even corrected the spelling for you.

if you are right about the offer of a forum being a mere diversion then i guess it kind of worked - perhaps gypsy knew that you would find it tough to work within the system. it might be the case that you are going to have to compromise your style a little bit in order to take this forward, but then again if it is as important as you maintain then surely that would be a reasonable pay-off?

sorry if i fell for the smoke and mirrors but fwiw i still think you should have consisered the offer. there would be nothing to say you had to go straight for the jugular in the first thread - you could start a little smaller, make the forum a popular place and take the longer road to your destination, after all you wouldnt be the first visionary that needed to use a bit of politics and diplomacy to get to where they wanted to go.

cheers

V.

p.s. given that nvisionary's posts can be somewhat transient it might be a good idea for anyone responding to him to quote the relevent part of his prose - then if the post gets deleted the thread may still scan.

 

[Kaneh]

I just came back to check this thread and WTF!!!
Nvisionary is back but his posts deleted, this is getting ridicolous!

Do we need to back up everypost on this thread?
Or should we just go somewhere else?

Nvisionary, I think if you have your own forum here, you can be the only mod and moderate the way you feel like it!
Your attitude sucks, but if Tom is not offended, I don't know why somebody else should give a fuk!

Could someone PM me nvisionarys post?
(I cant believe it has gone to this, LOL)

 

[Tom Hill]

Tom Hill,
Have you edited all your posts to your satisfaction by now??I hope so.. In case you dont know...its pretty chickenshit to go back and make 'after-the-fact edits that are related to our discussion, even IF it was to supposedly 'clarify' something you said before, because others respond to what you JUST SAID, not what you quietly edited it to say later, after you have reconsidered your post. Shit, every time I go back to one of your posts now, its different in some way. Is that what people have to do to have a conversation with you? Keep checking what your post says TODAY?

Heres how that one incident went.(and then Im done with it) I asked you:"Do you have pics of full-grown breeding parents??" You answered:"Here are a few pics of full sized plants during the most recent round of any REAL selections performed on this line (Deep Chunk - 2003)

ok.

I asked you to show BREEDING PARENTS, not fucking clones you selected FROM PROGENY that were nothing more than resinous sisters you kept to grow out.Why did you post THAT pic? And then conveniently leave out the fact that those were clones of progeny and NOT the breeding parents I was asking to see??, and THEN sprinkle it with:

"Here are full-sized plants"... when you knew it was NOT a pic of BREEDING PARENTS?
...and then use the phrase: "REAL selections performed on this line"? ........AS IF they were the breeding parents you know I wanted to see.... ?????

I have already had to decode a bunch of your cryptic posts on breeding; posts which are not very CLEAR when they REALLY NEED to be. I have to wonder why you slip in and out of clarity, as needed. I see GitT is also struggling to get clarity on your posts on breeding now. Im almost done trying to decrypt the shit.

So when you posted (what turns out later to be) CLONES that youd selected, instead of what Id asked you for, my next question on those plants was going to be based on the pic being BREEDING PARENTS. Then, while looking through your Deep Chunk pics in your forum, (oh so DESPERATELY RIFLING ykno...) I noticed the pic that you had just posted above was in another thread from August where you said the plants produced a 1/2 pound of weed apiece, and that the grow in the pic was "an afterthought". Again, I understood the plants in the pic in this thread to be SEED PLANTS/BREEDING PARENTS, so that didnt
sound right to me.

Then I responded to your un-clear answer and 'slippery' pic of 5 adult plants, asking if those plants in the pic were of an open pollination or NOT?... and rather than give a straight answer, you come off the wall to claim that Im moving the bar around on you. When it is you that is obviously avoiding the Question.

Shortly after I was in your forum, (where you are watching who is "rifling through your threads".LOL), you edited that post above.I think you know what pic I saw (you know I clicked on your Deep Chunk SEEDMAKING sticky thread where the above pic is posted)and you made a quick move to modify your post in this thread to make IT better match the description you gave earlier, AFTER THE FACT of you posting the pic which basically left people to infer that was a real pic of BREEDING PARENTS.You added what I'd seen in the August thread -about the plants being HERB plants, and not seed plants, like your pic posted above ORIGINALLY implied. SO NOW youre claiming that they WERE pollinated(probably another AFTERTHOUGHT) And produced a 1/2 lb of HERB EACH....was that WITH the SEEDS or WITHOUT??? So many twists and turns with you Tom.

ehhh........whatever. I dont even wanna hear what your next story is... There are far more important things to cover. I just wanted to clarify the issue, as I saw it.

Whatta friggen windbag, jeeze Louise and good-night-nurse. You had a week to come up with that and you think it passes for education? You didn't clarify jackshit. Those full-sized plants WERE breeding parents, EXACTLY as you asked for. They were NOT clones, wtf, CLARIFY where you are getting this shit from! By SELECTIONS I mean the same thing as YOU. They were part of a modified mass selection where I pollinate the top 5% with a pollen mix. They (the budshots) were from a couple of plants from a garden of 50, one garden out of 4 similar gardens on that parcel. A parcel that closed in the late spring and so got a late start, hence the afterthought comment. The edit was simply because in the post immediately prior you asked for full grown breeding plants, I edited to make clear their age/size is ALL. In case you don't know, accusing somebody of being a liar for adding clarification that has nothing AT ALL to do with what you quoted is pretty chickenshit too. After the fact my ass, my edits had nothing to do with your posts or you rifling through my forum. I just clicked on your handle and saw you were seeking through my forum, thought it was amusing, and commented. There is no further conspiracy there.

What do you mean

"I think you know what pic I saw (you know I clicked on your Deep Chunk SEEDMAKING sticky thread where the above pic is posted)"

Seedmaking thread where WHAT "above pic" is posted? I believe you're actually looking at several budshots of different plants grown from seed during different grows/breeding cycles and mistaking them for the same plant/clone/pic? lol.

NOW, more importantly,

The only pic Ive been able to locate of an Open Pollination youve personally performed was one where you were making a seedlot for money. I think you took that picture for the sole
intent that the pic would increase interest in, and improve the SALES of, your 'Deep Chunk' release.Do you have pictures of the OPs from the past 24 years when you WERENT into selling seeds?That would get you some mileage from me and Im sure it wouldnt hurt your popularity among seed newbs....Or is that just something youre "going to do from now on"? yeahhhmann..how RICH! how RICH indeed!And, dont YOU think that after all of the questions Ive had for you, and after all of the assumptions Ive had to make based on your cryptic and vague posts, your defiant self-preservation, misleading pics, your desperate attempts to make me look desperate, the quiet post editing.... the no pics of any previous plant breeding.......that I simply dont believe you?I dont believe you have provided any reason for anyone to believe you. You better do better than that. When newbs interpret your pic of more seedlings than they have ever seen in one 'tent', they RUN OFF the road with it. I will need more than that, sir. ONE pic of ONE Seed Boutique SEED CROP is not
indicative of 25 years of anything in my book. And seed makers should be ACCOUNTABLE for what theyre doing. This looks like typical amateur seedmaking bullshit on the Internet...nothing bigger.

I do approve of your ONE documented OP.

I take pics of my work, I feel folks deserve to see how seed is made. I could give a crap about what you think of that. I DO have pics of old OP's as it happens, haha. They are buried below the frost line and snow and 3000 miles away, but I will dig some up for you and scan/post them in the spring, not that I am particularly concerned with mileage. Like an uppity split-tail though (btw, "uppity split-tail" is a humorous metaphor for folk who can't decide what they truly want from others) and true to your mo, I'm sure you'll require something ELSE/MORE immediately after to attain any mileage with you, shifty.

Your tent thing and the intense planting would induce serious levels of experimental error if this was a SELECTION generation or a PROGENY EVALUATION
generation, but since you are just Open Populating the seedlings with LOW to NO SELECTION, that would be fine. Its better than anything anyone else in this group is doing right now.I got hung up on the idea that you were evaluating plants in the tent.(you actually did but it was supposedly light) As it looks now, you were just making seeds for money and that was a PHOTO opportunity to enhance the sales. Please CLARIFY that.

Oh, so NOW you understand the difference between a selection round and OP, good. Why when I say selection round do you twist it into clones of progeny and all this other crap that never left my mouth? Clarify what? That I document my seed production? WTF?

Tropical seedlines/ equatorial landraces are useless to grow in upper latitudes and in typical indoor scenarios. You know that. You sure wouldnt use one
outdoors in Northern California, as you have indicated before. Now it sounds like you wouldnt want to use most of your own seeds.lol.Most drug cannabis is produced and consumed in the upper latitudes. The pure land races are of no use for growers in many real-life scenarios, but I would agree they could have some use to BREEDERS some day, but mostly as real F1 Hybrids with other pure lines that are indica, and possibly to seek
repair genes, but ONLY WHEN ITS LEGAL. In the meanwhile, these tropical races have extremely limited application.

Most drug cannabis is equatorial narrows hybridized with hash/broadleafs. Just because what you have is all mixed-up already does not mean that I will have no use for the tropicals in hybridizing to my broadleafs that are not already mongrels, lol. Yes, you have it right, my unhybridized lines will not perform as well as your hybrids in most situations. Are you just figuring this out or what? Preserving inbred lines requires a bit of sacrifice.

Allright. I dont think so, but let's hear about what youre talking about. What kinds of selection are do-able for the paid seedmakers on this site, and that also conserves the genetic material of the genepool? CONVINCE US WITH VIABLE, LIKELY SCENARIOS.

I have lots of ideas regarding that, I have already spoke to some of them while you've been busy running around in circles purposely misunderstanding me. Where are your ideas? We are all still waiting for some type of clarification on what YOU see as appropriate change, a doable change that doesn't change next week?

p.s. I re-post this section again, to reiterate what is my immediate goal, since there seems to be confusion and short-term memory issues..... The goal was never to single you out, Tom. You just happened to take up the cause for the immoral majority.

REPOSTTo Tom Hill)

"My goal is bigger than your few seed hackjobs and one apparent open pollination.Im getting off track by your labored attempts to justify your personal gene pool actions, when there is a far more important goal. This isnt about You. Youre just the guy who felt the most need to justify his contribution.Its about the speed hacking seedmarket, that encourages cannabis genepool erosion. And an attempt to re-evaluate what is an approved method of seedmaking and what is no longer approved..And hopefully get people to accept the changes in order to benefit drug cannabis, not just the pimps and the
amateur seed hacks.My focus should be returned to asking for YOUR SUPPORT(et.al.) in making real changes in the gene-eroding seedmarket, in the name of Cannabis. If you decline, then you decline. good bye.Do you want to HELP make a difference on a scale that is bigger than you? If you dont want to help, ok, youre done here. Sit back and enjoy watching others take the wand, for a run around this hack fest."

Take your hand off your back man, a deep breath, and get down with your pitch then, nobody is stopping you but yourself. Are you done with bringing-up experimental errors in inappropriate scenarios? Pretending that you don't understand me? Chickenshit slandering?

You now approve of my TWO OP's (in two tents each btw) done recently for seed - I am so relieved. Now get on with your important work and lets see if you can actually say something.-T

 

[englishrick]

all i wana know is


where the heck am i supposed to aquire germplasm from????????,,,,,,,,lets emagine cloning is NOT an option!!!

do i want to aquire purebreeds or hetero seeds ???

how do i improve my aquired seedlines,,,han how do i continue the lines apropreatly???????,,,,,,,,

lets emagine i will only aquire 1 batch of seeds in my life,,,,,,,,what do i need in my 1 batch,,,an what am i suposed to do??????/

please teach us

 

[JJScorpio]

I just came back to check this thread and WTF!!!
Nvisionary is back but his posts deleted, this is getting ridicolous!

Do we need to back up everypost on this thread?
Or should we just go somewhere else?

Nvisionary, I think if you have your own forum here, you can be the only mod and moderate the way you feel like it!
Your attitude sucks, but if Tom is not offended, I don't know why somebody else should give a fuk!

Could someone PM me nvisionarys post?
(I cant believe it has gone to this, LOL)

Believe it. The most of us left junior high along time ago and don't want to listen to his childish comments. He comes back and his first post is right back to instigating. Not real bright.

He's more than welcome to make posts and leave out the jabs and nonsense. If he can't, he can find another site to spew on. And you and the others that like reading the garbage can go there with him.

 

[nvisionary]

GitT:"I find a little strange logic in your idea of what would happen if you were to take up the offer. Surely if they wanted you gone and all your posts deleted, it would have happened. They can just as easily censor you in this thread as in your own forum. In fact, I'd say it's easier in here. Give it some thought."

>>> uh..hello? I find it very strange that you didnt think I would be censored. Now what do you think? haha

Scorpio??? Why do you keep reading the thread if it doesnt interest you? Im not hurting anyone. This is good shit!!
Do you have something to ADD, or are you just here to keep me saying what YOU want to say? Why dont you give your opinion on the topic instead of being a complete ?

Tom,

I didnt think youd come forth and I was right. You took the pics to sell seeds.

TH:"nobody is stopping you but yourself.....(edit) Now get on with your important work and lets see if you can actually say something.-T"

>>>I was doing my thing...and you needed to chitchat about all your good work and try to absolve yourself. If youre done now, I will be happy to continue spreading the important messages I have for this community. Are you done?

I think youre done.

 

[Tom Hill]

"I wish Chimera and Tom Hill et.al. would post and either defend their methods of seed production or admit to being another seedhack. As it is, it looks like the silence is lending to the latter."

>>> ^^^ That was you "doing your thing".

And yes, I'm about all done here, unless and until you require further spanking for being out of line and taking things completely out of context.

 

[Tom Hill]

I do approve of your ONE documented OP

There was two, very similar, and thanks man. Like I said, such a relief.

Please carry-on brother. Biglove. -T

 

[mean mr.mustard]

I'm so glad you've returned with your wisdom, knowledge, and completely jaded babble... I have yet to see any new techniques from you nvisionary.

Where's the chase and how do I cut to it?

If you're only offering us messages then I think we've all heard the only one you've brought to the table too many times.... what would the next one be?

Talking in circles about damage done and preservation isn't addressing how to MOVE FORWARD instead of retreading this muck.

 

[GreenintheThumb]

GitT:"I find a little strange logic in your idea of what would happen if you were to take up the offer. Surely if they wanted you gone and all your posts deleted, it would have happened. They can just as easily censor you in this thread as in your own forum. In fact, I'd say it's easier in here. Give it some thought."

>>> uh..hello? I find it very strange that you didnt think I would be censored. Now what do you think? haha

Uh...hello. If you read that you'll see I said they can more easily censor you here than in your own forum where you're moderator. Take them up on the offer if you have more to teach and want to help the pool. If you want to keep playing games with Tom, fine. It isn't going to save our pool.

Here's what I've asked of you:

Well, I really wanted to get into your thoughts about the future of the industry post legalization. But since you claim to have improved a seedline maybe you could just explain how you did it in the current legal environment and without running huge numbers

I asked it before and I'll ask it again. When we join hyb's Super Friends, what's the plan? How do we help make a difference on a bigger scale? I think you've spoken volumes on what not to do but very little on what we can do tomorrow. I admit the discussion has to start where it did but perhaps we should move it forward before some asshole decides to ban you again.

Tom-
Way back a few days I had some more questions for you on your selfing programs. I wouldn't mind continuing to chat about it