Vegan Organics with Professor Matt Rize
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This thread has been an adventure. 
After reading through everything the only comment i have for now was concerning H2O2 use. Due to the general reactivity of peroxides and it's effects on living tissues (well in more concentrated amounts) and organisms i definitely side with the opinion of not using it to try and add more O2 to media.
While i am sure that pre-germination inoculation of seeds with beneficial microbes is a good strategy, sometimes i don't know the source of my seeds and then i like to soak them in a very dilute solution of H2O2 to kill off fungal and microbial spores. For me, besides cleaning and possibly using some during cloning, that is the most useful of application of H2O2 for plant cultivation.
Wonderful contributions all round. There are some unanswered questions thought it seems.
Clackamas That specific thermal compost you mentioned sounds uber healthy. I'm slowly sourcing stuff around here.
After reading through everything the only comment i have for now was concerning H2O2 use. Due to the general reactivity of peroxides and it's effects on living tissues (well in more concentrated amounts) and organisms i definitely side with the opinion of not using it to try and add more O2 to media.
While i am sure that pre-germination inoculation of seeds with beneficial microbes is a good strategy, sometimes i don't know the source of my seeds and then i like to soak them in a very dilute solution of H2O2 to kill off fungal and microbial spores. For me, besides cleaning and possibly using some during cloning, that is the most useful of application of H2O2 for plant cultivation.
Wonderful contributions all round. There are some unanswered questions thought it seems.
Clackamas That specific thermal compost you mentioned sounds uber healthy.
I'm slowly sourcing stuff around here.
Matt Rize
Member
Bioboost is not a N supplement
Bioboost is not a N supplement
Bioboost is a plant extract designed to be used in conjunction (in addition to) with plant food. If the boost had a ton of N in it, that would eff up the whole system. It is primarily designed to be foliar fed with food during flower... so again a high N content wouldn't make sense.
Thanks for looking up the links and posting.
Al - paranoid delusions only perpetuate negative stereotypes about the community. I don't even get a discount from them. Cha. "Vegan and organic just makes too much sense for medicine" Agreed.
Bioboost is not a N supplement
Bioboost is a plant extract designed to be used in conjunction (in addition to) with plant food. If the boost had a ton of N in it, that would eff up the whole system. It is primarily designed to be foliar fed with food during flower... so again a high N content wouldn't make sense.
Thanks for looking up the links and posting.
Al - paranoid delusions only perpetuate negative stereotypes about the community. I don't even get a discount from them. Cha. "Vegan and organic just makes too much sense for medicine" Agreed.
Matt Rize
Member
LAME post
LAME post
Well, which one is it? To each his own or just flaming?
And they laugh at you for being so proud of your ignorance.
"The earliest records of vegetarianism as a concept and practice amongst a significant number of people concern ancient India[2] and the ancient Greek civilization in southern Italy and in Greece.[3] In both instances the diet was closely connected with the idea of nonviolence toward animals (called ahimsa in India) and was promoted by religious groups and philosophers." f
from stupid wiki so i won't link it as this is common knowledge, just pointing out how clueless you are regarding mankind's relationship with vegetarianism.
LAME post
Well, which one is it? To each his own or just flaming?
And they laugh at you for being so proud of your ignorance.
"The earliest records of vegetarianism as a concept and practice amongst a significant number of people concern ancient India[2] and the ancient Greek civilization in southern Italy and in Greece.[3] In both instances the diet was closely connected with the idea of nonviolence toward animals (called ahimsa in India) and was promoted by religious groups and philosophers." f
from stupid wiki so i won't link it as this is common knowledge, just pointing out how clueless you are regarding mankind's relationship with vegetarianism.
Y
Yankee Grower
Spurr:
1. I never said anything about microbes being flushed out of the medium. My comments were directed at, what I feel, is the less than optimal environment created when peeps flush and mainly about lowering the medium's O2 levels especially when they continually dump water and keep the medium over-saturated. I'm with Tom Hill about what can typically happen immediately after watering and the short term lag experienced.
2. Yeah I don't think I ever read anything about/from Luebke about using H2O2 and only rH and ORP. Bob Pike at Pike Agri Labs communicated directly with Siegfried so maybe another source of info for you?
3. I'm not advocating using H2O2 but if peeps do then I encourage them to regulate applications by monitoring ORP. Regarding using H2O2 in agriculture maybe contact Solvay Chemicals? I know they have done research regarding their calcium peroxide product...which does rock in ag use but at least one drawback in containers like a wicked pH swing when it's all 'consumed' but you will see accelerated growth before then and best used down low in the container where O2 levels are lower.
4. The references I remember about H2O2 were like 3. One was a study of surface water in a pond in I think N or S Carolina (?) and there was a measurable increase in H2O2 but as MM said the difference is miniscule...but still measurable. The second was from ocean surface analysis of pyhtoplankton that were affected and had to do with something like chlorophyll production. The other???
As for the 'veganics' thing whatever....for me it's about does it affect the microlife-to-worms and everything in between negatively or not and yes it's also about source depletion. Right now too many people on a small planet being fed/supported by inexpensive petro-agriculture and the intermediate step is???
1. I never said anything about microbes being flushed out of the medium. My comments were directed at, what I feel, is the less than optimal environment created when peeps flush and mainly about lowering the medium's O2 levels especially when they continually dump water and keep the medium over-saturated. I'm with Tom Hill about what can typically happen immediately after watering and the short term lag experienced.
2. Yeah I don't think I ever read anything about/from Luebke about using H2O2 and only rH and ORP. Bob Pike at Pike Agri Labs communicated directly with Siegfried so maybe another source of info for you?
3. I'm not advocating using H2O2 but if peeps do then I encourage them to regulate applications by monitoring ORP. Regarding using H2O2 in agriculture maybe contact Solvay Chemicals? I know they have done research regarding their calcium peroxide product...which does rock in ag use but at least one drawback in containers like a wicked pH swing when it's all 'consumed' but you will see accelerated growth before then and best used down low in the container where O2 levels are lower.
4. The references I remember about H2O2 were like 3. One was a study of surface water in a pond in I think N or S Carolina (?) and there was a measurable increase in H2O2 but as MM said the difference is miniscule...but still measurable. The second was from ocean surface analysis of pyhtoplankton that were affected and had to do with something like chlorophyll production. The other???
You're really the scientist here but don't know how much canna growing you've done especially indoors in containers. For me from cycle start to stop a noticeable difference in water drainage and retention. There's something else going on and maybe I need to be more like REv growing 4' plants in 5" containers lol...
Well...I do not use MAP nor do I recommend that for small scale growers but some good points in what you posted in general about SRP/MAP and can tell you large scale biological growers do not use SRP. In fact when I brought up the SRP question it was recommended to use Tennessee Brown phosphate instead. Yeah you can provide all the necessary goodies from more preferred sources when on a small scale but a different story when dealing with a few hundred acres. I need to make a call and get more info though. Peeps I've been dealing with lately are not academics but practical applicants honoring the soil.
As for the 'veganics' thing whatever....for me it's about does it affect the microlife-to-worms and everything in between negatively or not and yes it's also about source depletion. Right now too many people on a small planet being fed/supported by inexpensive petro-agriculture and the intermediate step is???
C
Carl Carlson
CNS17 Hydro Grow ~ http://www.americanagritech.com/fertilizers/cns17/cns17-hydro-grow
15 ml per gallon
Total N - 137 ppm
Nitrate N - 131 ppm
Ammoniacal N - 6 ppm
P - 40 ppm
K - 152 ppm
Ca - 128 ppm
Mg - 23 ppm
S - 50 ppm
Mn - .22 ppm
Mo - .02 ppm
I say start throwing up pix of your gardens. A feller' can talk all day but lets see some PIX!
Bla Bla Bla Yadda yadda yadda......where's these pix from what your pimpin'?
I do appreciate all the science and actual real information from those who KNOW I respect them. I've been just hangin' back reading this stuff.
Really man,out here in the real world a person earns respect,it isn't handed to them.
A lot of talk,but what matters is if you walk the walk.
I say throw up your pix.......
Bla Bla Bla Yadda yadda yadda......where's these pix from what your pimpin'?
I do appreciate all the science and actual real information from those who KNOW I respect them. I've been just hangin' back reading this stuff.
Really man,out here in the real world a person earns respect,it isn't handed to them.
A lot of talk,but what matters is if you walk the walk.
I say throw up your pix.......
Yes I agree. So many people are/were burned by this information and developed such a horrible misunderstanding of horticulture.
Holy! Quite a thread going. I Just want to interject that substances like sphagnum peat moss are soiless media as Spurr has pointed out, however when they are mixed with vermicompost and other organic matter and have had plants growing in the media for a year or more, they become living soil; that is so long as the life is not turned on its head and ripped up.
Additionally I have seen and made (vermi)compost which I would describe as soil and I have used straight for planting. My usual beginning soiless mix is 33% vermicompost, 33% sphagnum peat moss & 33% topsoil/silt/sand
I would like to politely mention to Matt that it is probably not appropriate to continue giving any advice regarding BioCanna until he has cleared up the ambiguity around the potential for synthetics utilized in the products. Like I said it could be innocent but let's put a hold on this until we know. This is the organic soil forum.
Additionally I have seen and made (vermi)compost which I would describe as soil and I have used straight for planting. My usual beginning soiless mix is 33% vermicompost, 33% sphagnum peat moss & 33% topsoil/silt/sand
I would like to politely mention to Matt that it is probably not appropriate to continue giving any advice regarding BioCanna until he has cleared up the ambiguity around the potential for synthetics utilized in the products. Like I said it could be innocent but let's put a hold on this until we know. This is the organic soil forum.
Matt Rize
Member
Soil vs soil-less explained
Soil vs soil-less explained
Another semantics post... But at least we can cover a topic that I am asked about frequently. What is soil? and what is soil-less in the indoor Cannabis world?
So friends... what is the line between soil and soil-less in the indoor Cannabis world?
Is the line between soil/soil-less fuzzy? ie "for a year or more" Or more specifically, what are you using as the qualification to be "soil".
My media is technically soil-less by traditional measure, but is highly alive with bacteria/fungi throughout the life cycle. On the practical level my media is living, but has no EWC and is fresh out the bag. I still call is dirt, but I know it is soil-less media.
The big difference (IMO) between soil and soil-less for indoor gardens is the food source. Take your EWC/Peat mix from above, add a bunch of slow release and let it cook ala subcool's recipe... and I will call that soil. Take the same EWC/Peat mix and use bottled/powdered food without the slow-release and I will call that soil-less. But again, this is simply semantics and corruption of words by the industry.
And if the soil vs soil-less line is fuzzy, does this shift the debate from "what is soil?" to "how soil-ly is it?"
As for indoor gardens, you (god) advocate reusing your indoor potting mix... right? And that your mix will qualify as a soil after a year of reuse/amendment? But you would also be adding fresh peat (& other stuff) between crops (I'm thinking indoor container), which is not soil... right?
Anyways, really interested to hear what you guys think about the line between soil and soil-less. Thanks for contributing.
Soil vs soil-less explained
Another semantics post... But at least we can cover a topic that I am asked about frequently. What is soil? and what is soil-less in the indoor Cannabis world?
So friends... what is the line between soil and soil-less in the indoor Cannabis world?
Is the line between soil/soil-less fuzzy? ie "for a year or more" Or more specifically, what are you using as the qualification to be "soil".
My media is technically soil-less by traditional measure, but is highly alive with bacteria/fungi throughout the life cycle. On the practical level my media is living, but has no EWC and is fresh out the bag. I still call is dirt, but I know it is soil-less media.
The big difference (IMO) between soil and soil-less for indoor gardens is the food source. Take your EWC/Peat mix from above, add a bunch of slow release and let it cook ala subcool's recipe... and I will call that soil. Take the same EWC/Peat mix and use bottled/powdered food without the slow-release and I will call that soil-less. But again, this is simply semantics and corruption of words by the industry.
And if the soil vs soil-less line is fuzzy, does this shift the debate from "what is soil?" to "how soil-ly is it?"
As for indoor gardens, you (god) advocate reusing your indoor potting mix... right? And that your mix will qualify as a soil after a year of reuse/amendment? But you would also be adding fresh peat (& other stuff) between crops (I'm thinking indoor container), which is not soil... right?
Anyways, really interested to hear what you guys think about the line between soil and soil-less. Thanks for contributing.
Matt Rize
Member
I would like to mention...
I would like to mention...
That I have not said anything about BioCanna unless specifically asked. Can't move the thread now... and this is not the "100% organics soil" forum... technically I don't even grow in soil. But I do brew teas and use certified organic products (or sourced locally from friends ranch).
I should have know that the results were too good/instant to be true* organics...
And I'll go even farther by saying my organic credentials are on par with anyone here. I've eaten all organic since age 12, and spent many years as a vegetarian. I only shop at the farmer's market and the local co-op. I have no idea what a commercial grocery store looks like anymore, and fast food is a distant memory. I only eat meat from local ranches. I drive an effing hybrid. I host a CSA at my house, to support my local organic farmers. I compost everything from the garden that is not smoked. And I compost my ashes too I moved down the street from my job so I only drive on the weekends. I buy my milk in glass jars and return them to the dairy. I was the chef at a vegetarian/sustainable seafood restaurant. My college was literally an organic farm. I could go on, but won't as this idea: that my thread does not belong here because BioCanna is certified organic but not 100%, is way beneath you.
*another loosely defined word that I'm suggesting means 100%
post edit: I haven't even talked about my system yet... and you are still trying give me the boot? I can keep sending those who are interested in Vegan Organics with Professor Matt Rize: Plant Based Organic Nutrition Indoors using Soil-less Media to my thread on rollitup.org ... but gypsy might not like that.
I would like to mention...
That I have not said anything about BioCanna unless specifically asked. Can't move the thread now... and this is not the "100% organics soil" forum... technically I don't even grow in soil. But I do brew teas and use certified organic products (or sourced locally from friends ranch).
I should have know that the results were too good/instant to be true* organics...
And I'll go even farther by saying my organic credentials are on par with anyone here. I've eaten all organic since age 12, and spent many years as a vegetarian. I only shop at the farmer's market and the local co-op. I have no idea what a commercial grocery store looks like anymore, and fast food is a distant memory. I only eat meat from local ranches. I drive an effing hybrid. I host a CSA at my house, to support my local organic farmers. I compost everything from the garden that is not smoked. And I compost my ashes too
I moved down the street from my job so I only drive on the weekends. I buy my milk in glass jars and return them to the dairy. I was the chef at a vegetarian/sustainable seafood restaurant. My college was literally an organic farm. I could go on, but won't as this idea: that my thread does not belong here because BioCanna is certified organic but not 100%, is way beneath you.*another loosely defined word that I'm suggesting means 100%
post edit: I haven't even talked about my system yet... and you are still trying give me the boot? I can keep sending those who are interested in Vegan Organics with Professor Matt Rize: Plant Based Organic Nutrition Indoors using Soil-less Media to my thread on rollitup.org ... but gypsy might not like that.
The sad thing is that you assign your stupidity to soils, which since the dawn of time, have decomposed everything, including every type of meat and plant, and made it into..... wait for it.... more soil.
So again, WTF is the point? Vegan soil. Pfffft. Only man can dream of such idealism. Nature doesn't care.
It's akin to drinking bottled water when your tap probably has the same water as the bottle. Or better.
Excellent point, I didn't consider time before you wrote that, I think you are correct.
All this good stuff but your 'tude sucks....that makes you look kinda'______That I have not said anything about BioCanna unless specifically asked. Can't move the thread now... and this is not the "100% organics soil" forum... technically I don't even grow in soil. But I do brew teas and use certified organic products (or sourced locally from friends ranch).
I should have know that the results were too good/instant to be true* organics...
And I'll go even farther by saying my organic credentials are on par with anyone here. I've eaten all organic since age 12, and spent many years as a vegetarian. I only shop at the farmer's market and the local co-op. I have no idea what a commercial grocery store looks like anymore, and fast food is a distant memory. I only eat meat from local ranches. I drive an effing hybrid. I host a CSA at my house, to support my local organic farmers. I compost everything from the garden that is not smoked. And I compost my ashes too
*another loosely defined word that I'm suggesting means 100%
........fill in the blank with a realistic statement.
Got any pix of these "veganic" gardens of yours?...
Matt Rize
Member
Pictures/video available in hi-def
Pictures/video available in hi-def
On kushman's website, and even better his facebook page (which is open to the public but without the advertisement). Although I will point out that we have different systems and genetics. At least he has pro photographers.
And this is not an ad, as I could have mentioned this in the OP.
Pictures/video available in hi-def
On kushman's website, and even better his facebook page (which is open to the public but without the advertisement). Although I will point out that we have different systems and genetics. At least he has pro photographers.
And this is not an ad, as I could have mentioned this in the OP.
Come on now....why should we have to go diggin' around. Throw 'em up like we do.
Here's some inspiration...A bit of N. bat poo poo,crab meal,fish bone meal,and fish hydrolysate in very small quantities. AACT teas 3 or 4 per cycle..maybe. Recycled soil mix incorporating native topsoil,and local high quality compost and EWC....pumice,CC's seed meal mix,CC's mineral mix, my own mineral mix(similar version of CC's mineral mix)and all the stuff like peat coco,vermiculite,perlite that I haven't bought in over a year...which I hardly recognize anymore and I never buy anymore.
It's all about compost and recycling....now only a tiny bit of re-amending. Not a single cancer patient with vegan standards has ever had a problem with this medicine. Food grade medicine....practice food handling techniques in your garden if you eat it and it's all good.
Question: Do those who have cancer eat organic produce that was grown with animal poo poo?
NUG-JUG
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