Vegan Organics with Professor Matt Rize

[One Love 731]

Thanks Matt for starting this thread, after sifting through the petty pissing match, some of IC's best have contributed some of the best info I have seen in a single thread in a while. So many links, so many amazing growers giving up there methods for free. Thanks to gypsy we have a place like this to share about this marvelous herb. Lots of good laughs to boot. And to the OP this is my favorite part of the pissing match.

If you want to see me in action come take my class, I can get you in as an audit, contact me. I will be teaching/instructing/professing/guest lecturing an outdoor class and a hash making class this Sunday. We can fight after if you think I'm a jerk and want to do something.

Your alright Matt. Why don't we all come together and continue to learn instead of looking for a point of contention. Thanks to all that have contributed, as always I am not taking a side, I am learning from all of you. What a great site. Karma, One Love

 

[TanzanianMagic]

So a little babble about feeding your microbes molasses (or whatever you use), which I know I'm going to get called out for. Just part of what I'm into, not technically a vegan thing.

A silly question, but I'm new to compost teas.

Can you substite BioCanna or Biobizz Grow (which I have - I don't have molassis yet) for molassis to feed the microbes?

 

[Tela]

Short answer: the plant extracts that BioCanna uses.

I have all three and am running side by side.

I'll have to try some of the biocanna. Ive been a huge fan of the biobizz line for the past few yrs and recently been alternating feedings with some of the GO every other week during flower starting in week 2. The plants seem to like it. I figured the GO would cover anything the biobizz might be short on. Thanks for sharing your knowledge. After reading the thread a lil more, i realized we're probably members of the same collective. Keep up the good work.

 

[Matt Rize]

Sub Biocanna for molasses?

Sub Biocanna for molasses?

A silly question, but I'm new to compost teas.

Can you substite BioCanna or Biobizz Grow (which I have - I don't have molassis yet) for molassis to feed the microbes?

No question is silly. Great question.

I just want to start by making sure we are on the same page regarding teas.

AACT and ACT are the two types of 'teas' that we use in organic gardening. Check this short article out: http://www.gardenrant.com/my_weblog/2007/06/jeff_lowenfels_.html

An example of a veg cycle 'tea' recipe is:

1 cup of earthworm castings
1/4 cup kelp meal
1/4 cup fish fish hydrolysate
1/2 teaspoon pure humic acid
1 tablespoon soft rock phosphate
2 tablespoons organic alfalfa meal
1 tablespoon molasses

These ingredients are brewed (meaning mixed with water and aerated), diluted, and watered in. Recipes can be as simple as: earthworm castings, sugar, and water.

I would not substitute Biocanna or Biobizz for molasses when brewing a compost tea. Although the BioCanna does contain vinasse, it is much more complex than a molasses or sucanat. BioCanna specifically needs to be used within a few hours of mixing into water. Once mixed into water 'things' start to happen.

The GOOD news is that molasses is WAY cheaper than either of those products. You can buy it bulk from natural food stores and it is super cheap. Sucanant is a good alternative and can also be bought by the 'bulk', meaning you can buy as little as you can afford.

Thanks for contributing.

 

[Matt Rize]

Same collective... lol

Same collective... lol

Thanks for sharing your knowledge. After reading the thread a lil more, i realized we're probably members of the same collective. Keep up the good work.

I used to work there in the back and the counter, if you are a patient we should know each other's faces. I appreciate the feedback.

What's your favorite top shelf? I'm too biased to give a fair answer.

 

[spurr]

I don't believe that flushing is a great thing for the microbial population in general because not all media is going to be perfectly aggregately structured. For one who understands the porosity contructs of their soil/media sure, if you think/know you need to dump some soluble P okay.

I agree 101%, I was only suggesting flushing with water in a hypothetical situation, for organic growers this should never be needed.

I don't side with flushing because most people completely misunderstand its potential function and think they are preventing the plant from uptaking the left-over nutrients. (kinda a throw back to Professor Rosenthal's orange juice or cool-aid flavored marijuana; giggle)

I agree 101%, flushing is a lame duck practice if the plant is properly grown.

IMO using H202 on your soil or in your digestive tract is insane. The amounts found in rainwater are miniscule compared to what the peroxide groupies are advocating. The lambasting of the myth that it is a productive growing technique is number 3 on my list when my new lab is finished (December/January I hope) It is an oxidizer..right? We want anti-oxidants don't we?

Yes.

We can say, heck the effects of the H202 are temporary; a few microbes bite the dust, then they come back but what about the effects on the cellular membrane that was not fatal and the potential effects passed down the chain?
Of course I can be wrong...anybody can....but I doubt it. <GRIN>

Again, agree 101%

I think old Luebke would have a fit about the use of peroxide.

If using AEM (PNSBs) as Spurr has suggested, to effect ORP, then one is employing anti-oxidants (as far as I know) rather than opening the free radical box employing H202. I'm definitely not expert on this and I'm justaguy who looks down a microscope tube and reads as much as time and my dwindling brain cells allow so certainly kick me in the head if I'm full of veganics.

Dang-gum-it! I can't seem to disagree with you, again, I agree 101%.

 

[grapeman]

To each his own. But growing plants using some self described "vegan" method is probably one of the dumbest things I have ever heard.

Trying to pretend that there hasn't been a natural life cycle occurring over eons wherein all types of living organisms eventually end up fortifying a living soil is just beyond dumb.

Even trying to pretend that sugar cane that ends up as molasses is not grown in soil that has had animal carcass or manure in it is pointless.

So what's the point? Vegan? I usually laugh at those people. It's not as if ALL of our ancestors didn't eat meat. Just another cause without merit.

 

[spurr]

On the practical level, for those of us who use bottled/powder food, this means keep using the 'veg' formula for the first one to three weeks (depending on length of flower cycle) into flowering, then begin the transition from 'veg' to 'bloom'. Or use both, meaning don't drop the 'veg' and work you way up to full strength 'bloom'. This can keep your sativas from doing the satty stretch and keep the root mass growing.

In terms of 'organic in a bottle' I am ardently opposed to "veg" and "bloom" versions. We can/should give the plant one fert all the time, the plant will take what it needs when it needs it. The goal is to supply sufficient ferts, not excess, and allow the plant to do as it will. Boosting P and K during flowering and dropping N is BS that is based upon un-referenced and flat out wrong info from decades ago according to Mel Frank, Ed Rosenthal, et al.

Lower N and P than K, with N higher than P and Ca higher than P and Mg around the level of P to Ca is a good goal for 'organics in a bottle'. That said, the use of N-P-K-Ca, etc. percents with organics in a bottle is pretty darn misleading because not all of those percentages are immediately available to plants. Adding Si (silica) is a very, very good idea, either via. pyrophyllite clay powder for organics as media amendment or potassium silicate for chems.

Ideally people who want to grow organically will grow with what I term 'biological organics', that is, relying upon microbes for the lion's share of ions and organic acids given to plants. In other words follow what MM, CTGuy, et al., suggest. As well as providing fish hydrolysate and cold-processed kelp extract as watered in organic ferts for many useful substances to plants and microbes. And if using peat or coco coir then mixing in high humus compost or vermicompost or special humic acid (i.e. humus analog) is important. And I do not suggest application of molasses on a regular basis for various reasons; sometimes, sure, if in limited quantities, but not to the degree the molasses cult would suggest.

With 'organics in a bottle' there are ions (from processing of the feedstocks such as fish hydrolysate, not in terms of synthetic chems), dissolved organic nitrogen and dissolved organic phosphorous, etc.; all of which are immediately available to the plant for uptake. There are also insoluble (sequestered) elements within organic matter (that is not in a dissolved state, e.g. not as organic acids). Those sequestered elements will be freed over time by microbial mineralization and microbial loop.

I for one would suggest use of Organic Gem fish hydrolysate and cold-processed (without chemical extraction) kelp extract such as Acadain Seaplants for 'bottled organics'. Along with amending media with mineral rich inputs like high quality compost and/or high quality vermicompost (not more than 20%; about 10% by volume is good), soft rock phosphate powder, pyrophyllite clay powder, zeolite powder, azomite, dolomitic lime and calcitic lime powder (esp. to peat moss mixes). That should provide all that is needed, as well as applying aerated compost tea to media and non-aerated compost tea as foliar spray every so often.

N and P in high amounts makes plants stretch by reducing root growth and increasing shoot growth (internodal length).

FWIW, below is my best effort to make an ideal chem fert mix using General Hydroponics Flora series to provide cannabis with sufficient level of elements. Ideally I would drop N to around 100 ppm so using maybe 3-4 ml of GH Micro and using 2.5 ml of CalMag+ might be better but I haven't done the math for that yet. The following mix is what I have been recently testing with ACT to see how it effects the microbes; no data to report as I haven't done enough testing yet. I have tested the following mix for growing cannabis without organics and it preformed better than the Lucas formula without excess ions found in the Lucas formula (which is based upon flawed claims by Ed Rosenthall, Mel Frank, George Cervantes, et al.):


Test mix with GH Grow/Micro/Bloom at 5/5/5 ml with CalMag+ at 5 ml and ProTeKt at 2.5 ml (all per gallon; along with citric acid to keep P anions soluble):

• Total N...140 ppm
• Nitrate N...130 ppm
• Ammonicial N...10 ppm
• P.....39 ppm
• K.....155 ppm
• Ca...126 ppm
• Mg...46 ppm
• S.....15 ppm
• Fe....3.1 ppm
• Mn...0.8 ppm
• Si.....56 ppm
• total PPM = 580
• Ca:Mg ratio = 2.7
• Nitrate N:Ammonicial N ratio = 13

Also, the false claim that there is an ideal Ca to Mg ratio has been debunked for a long time, yet the myth still perpetuates the cannabis industry. In fact, anywhere from a ratio of ~1.5:1 to 8:1 (and higher) Ca to Mg is fine in soil, soilless media and hydro too.

And I would like professor spurr's opinion on citric acid sourcing... is purity an issue with common products like pH down? or the citric acid available at health stores?

I use citric acid from a wine and beer brewing shop that costs ~$3 per ~58 grams. Earth Juice pH down is citric acid too I think, but it's really expensive because it sold for cannabis. I would suggest buying granulated citric acid as I do from a wine and beer brewing shop (online or brick and motor store). If health food stores sell it I can pretty much guarantee it will be more expensive and probably in tablet form.

 

[Clackamas Coot]

I use citric acid from a wine and beer brewing shop that costs ~$3 per ~58 grams. Earth Juice pH down is citric acid too I think, but it's really expensive because it sold for cannabis. I would suggest buying granulated citric acid as I do from a wine and beer brewing shop (online or brick and motor store). If health food stores sell it I can pretty much guarantee it will be more expensive and probably in tablet form.

spurr

I stopped downtown in the little town I live in to see if the homebrew shop carried citric acid which they do.

$6.95 per lb. - pure citric acid and it's granulated. If I wanted 10 lbs. the price drops down to $4.00

Now I just need to figure out the application rate! LOL

CC

 

[spurr]

Hey CC,

For a scientific analytical rate see this quote:

"Bioavailability of soil inorganic P in the rhizosphere as affected by root-induced chemical changes: a review"
Philippe Hinsinger
Plant and Soil 237: 173–195, 2001.
(full text) http://www.plantstress.com/Articles/min_deficiency_m/P-bioavailability.pdf

"However, these results also demonstrate that little or no effect on soil P solubility and bioavailability to plants are to be expected for exudation rates lower than those measured for red clover and white lupin, which yielded a concentration of adsorbed citrate of about 10 and 50 µmol per g soil, respectively (Fig. 9a). This means that for having any significant effect on P bioavailability, citrate exudation must occur at the largest reported rates."

But for usage I simply add enough to drop pH to 6.00 to 6.10; I use pH as a guide because it allows me to add a decent amount without making water too acidic which can cause other issues. I don't have an application rate by gram to gallon of water I can suggset because everyone's starting pH is different, my pH after adding fish hydrolysate and kelp is about 6.5-7ish, my tap water is about 7ish.

I have not weighed out how much citric acid I add but next time I will, if I had to hazard a guess I would say I add about < 0.5 g per 5 gallons. But that's only a guess and I could be pretty far off.

 

[spurr]

This is exactly why I started this thread. I'm not the only one who relies on SRF. OP or not, this thread seems to have brought together some great ideas. Fungal rich ACT, great idea. Thanks again for the contributions.

One point I think worth mentioning is when I write fungal rich I do not mean fungal dominate. I think a good balance of microbes is key, I agree with MM's postion on this issue; not with Dr. Inghams position on this issue.

 

[Matt Rize]

Thanks for clarity

Thanks for clarity

One point I think worth mentioning is when I write fungal rich I do not mean fungal dominate. I think a good balance of microbes is key, I agree with MM's postion on this issue; not with Dr. Inghams position on this issue.

I could only assumed that was what you meant. I would also assume that due to the ubiquitous nature of bacteria they will always have a "seat at the table" in teas.

Thanks again for the many contributions. Peas

 

[spurr]

So this is how it goes when I'm at work.

H2O2: Okay, the world is not black and white. Shades of grey. Although the H2O2 fans are certainly advocating the overuse of H2O2, that does not make it a completely use-less garden product. Can we agree on that?

Sorry, I can't agree with that. I see no reason to ever use H2o2 with organics for any reason besides to clean out a compost tea brewer. Like MM wrote, not only does it kill microbes but I can also damage plant tissue, just like it damages human skin tissue (which is why H2o2 should not be used on skin cuts esp. after they start healing, much better is to use povidone-iodine).

I've used H2O2 to keep clones in water for days, and to clean living plant tissue. A splash in 20 gallons can't do much, right?

In what regard? I doubt a "splash in 20 gallons" will help sanitize plant tissue and I also doubt it will help add 02 to media. I believe H2o2 is a huge fail in horticulture.

And we CANNOT assume that everyone's soil is 15% this or that, all sorts of gardeners and gardens are on here. If only everyone would set it up correctly from the start... I would be out of a job

I disagree. When I carried out my initial testes I did so on the exact same media most people use: 100% coco coir, 100% s.peat (SunShine), Cornell peat-light mix A (perlie), Organic Sunshine Mix, etc. In all cases the air porosity was over 15% as long as the media was at least 8-10" deep and there was light compaction by me when filling pots and the media was pre-moistened before filling the pot. I tested this way so other people can use the data I collected. What I found is not what I consider written in stone, I need to repeat the tests a few more times to verify my results and tweak things a bit, but what I have found is very useful IMO.

I plan to conduct lots of tests on as many media types (commercial and my own mixes) as possible in the coming year. I should be testing well over 20-30 different soilless media mixes, along with mixes used in "Hempy Buckets" such as 100% perlite (chunky), etc.

Flushing: This relates back the H2O2 in that there are many different gardens out there. "Soil" is a broad term in the indoor container gardening world. And as has been pointed out, flushing is a misunderstood word. For my indoor, mostly peat/coco/bark, flushing simply means not adding food to the water, but that is how my system is designed.

Flushing as a common term means pouring excess water, often 1-3 times the volume of media, though the media.

And because I know you love systematics, the use of the word "soil" for anything but that which taken from the ground is a misnomer. That is why we use the term "soilless" (or "soil-less"). This is a whole different debate, and only for systematic fans, but, to call a mix of peat/coco/pine bark fines "soil" is not accurate, it's soilless. The same goes for Pro-Mix, Sunshine mix, or any other media in a bag sold to cannabis growers and nursery horticultural industry (ex. from Fafard).

 

[Matt Rize]

Reply to Prof Spurr

Reply to Prof Spurr

Sorry, I can't agree with that. I see no reason to ever use H2o2 with organics for any reason besides to clean out a compost tea brewer. Like MM wrote, not only does it kill microbes but I can also damage plant tissue, just like it damages human skin tissue (which is why H2o2 should not be used on skin cuts esp. after they start healing, much better is to use povidone-iodine).

So H2O2 has one agreed upon gardening use: cleaning.
Would you kindly comment on a soaking clones in water with a little H2O2?... an old timer practice that no one really does anymore.

In what regard? I doubt a "splash in 20 gallons" will help sanitize plant tissue and I also doubt it will help add 02 to media. I believe H2o2 is a huge fail in horticulture.

Agreed, fail, but just trying to point out that a little can't bring down the system. O2 in water is more about temperature/aeration than adding any product.

I disagree. When I carried out my initial testes I did so on the exact same media most people use: 100% coco coir, 100% s.peat (SunShine), Cornell peat-light mix A (perlie), Organic Sunshine Mix, etc. In all cases the air porosity was over 15% as long as the media was at least 8-10" deep and there was light compaction by me when filling pots and the media was pre-moistened before filling the pot. I tested this way so other people can use the data I collected. What I found is not what I consider written in stone, I need to repeat the tests a few more times to verify my results and tweak things a bit, but what I have found is very useful IMO.

My media is not listed, contains no perlite, and many think it is way too heavy. I would argue that it is different structurally than the medias you have listed... any air:water ideas about the BTPlus?

I plan to conduct lots of tests on as many media types (commercial and my own mixes) as possible in the coming year. I should be testing well over 20-30 different soilless media mixes, along with mixes used in "Hempy Buckets" such as 100% perlite (chunky), etc.

Awesome, you are a hero. post edit: i refrain from asking about sample size

Flushing as a common term means pouring excess water, often 1-3 times the volume of media, th(r)ough the media.

Agreed, but to the enlightened organic growers who don't dump WAY too much food as is the way... flushing may now mean promoting advanced chlorosis by systematically with-holding food.

And because I know you love systematics, the use of the word "soil" for anything but that which taken from the ground is a misnomer. That is why we use the term "soilless" (or "soil-less"). This is a whole different debate, and only for systematic fans, but, to call a mix of peat/coco/pine bark fines "soil" is not accurate, it's soilless. The same goes for Pro-Mix, Sunshine mix, or any other media in a bag sold to cannabis growers and nursery horticultural industry (ex. from Fafard).

Agreed, soil is a misunderstood word in this industry. EWC, peat, and perlite does not equal soil, lol. I've been soil-less for many years now. I try to drop both words and just say media for this very reason. Thanks again for the contributions.

 

[Clackamas Coot]

spurr

RE: Sun Gro Horticulture (Sunshine Mixes) & Premier Horticulture (Pro-Mix)

Even in the nursery/horticulture industries, these mixes are referred to as 'blank soils' meaning that you have to add something to get a plant to grow. 99% of the time that is using soluble chemical fertilizers. Since Oregon is #2 in overall production (behind California), these mixes are stupid cheap, i.e. <$27.00 for 3.8 bales and <$19.00 for the Sunshine Organic Growers Mix which is in 2.8 loose filled bags. At least on the West Coast.

Some of the guys who mix their own soils use these products as a base and add some form of humus material and minerals. After that it's a wide open deal as far as soil amendments (seed meals, fish bone meal hydrolysate, fish meal hydrolysate, kelp meal, et al).

On the subject of minerals, I've been using a prepared mix available from 2 different farm stores in Portland. It's made of prilled minerals in equal amounts consisting of Canadian Glacial Rock Dust (the Gaia Green brand specifically), Azomite, limestone, greensand and soft rock phosphate. The SRP is the same product that MM mentioned, i.e. it's from Washington State.

All of the above mineral agents are available to buy individually. Having said that if you were to make up a mineral mix, which agents would you use? I also have calcified kelp (aka fossilized kelp) which is probably about as useless as greensand for a 3 or 4 months grow/flower cycle.

Thanks!

One other note, the specific thermal compost available is 100% organic plant material and the manure is from their organic dairy herds. They also add crushed used mushroom logs from one of the few organic shitake mushroom producers.

Their EWC is made only using organic plant material with both oyster shell flower and SRP added. Their set-up is in a heated building with a concrete floor using radiant floor heat from water heated on the roof. Pretty interesting set-up.

Thanks for any insight on the mineral mix deal.

CC

 

[Clackamas Coot]

Oregon Registeration

Oregon Registeration

I only looked up one product from Canna Continental specifically their "Bio Boost" at the Oregon Department of Agriculture's registration list.

Bio Boost contains 0.1% Nitrogen. In layman's terms that's Zero. Point. 1 Percent.

That must be some really special uber nitrogen source!! I hope they aren't just buying the gunk from FatBoy Mike and relabeling/renaming it.

Then again getting Zero. Point. 1 Percent. into a bottle isn't exactly a leap of faith.

CC

 

[Clackamas Coot]

Here's the entire product line from Canna Continental or at least their specific products that they've registered. The list also includes products that the company yanked after being challenged by ODA.

Advanced Nutrients now has over 30 products on the ODA's 'Stop Sale' list - looks like these ass clowns are shooting to best their record.

Good luck kids!

CC

 

[NUG-JUG]

spurr

RE: Sun Gro Horticulture (Sunshine Mixes) & Premier Horticulture (Pro-Mix)

Even in the nursery/horticulture industries, these mixes are referred to as 'blank soils' meaning that you have to add something to get a plant to grow.

this is why i get confused about the base in LC mix 2. It's saying that FFOF and Prom Mix\Sunshine are the same. Or am I not reading it right?

Or, if you use Pro Mix, Sunshine Mix or Fox Farm mixes...
LC's Soiless Mix #2:
6 parts Pro Mix BX or HP / Sunshine Mix (any flavor from #1 up) / Fox Farm Ocean Forest or Light Warrior
2 parts perlite
2 parts earthworm castings......

 

[Clackamas Coot]

this is why i get confused about the base in LC mix 2. It's saying that FFOF and Prom Mix\Sunshine are the same. Or am I not reading it right?

NUG-JUG

It's confusing because it's dead wrong. First would be the quality of the peat moss used in FFOF, Happy Frog (same sh*t), etc. Read the labels and see if it contains Sphagnum peat moss vs. peat moss just for starters. What pH amendment is being used? If any. What quality of 'EWC' are they using? They like the majority of soil packers on the West Coast buy their humus products on the spot market. There only a couple which actually produce their own thermal compost and EWC products. Fox Farms Fertilizer Co. isn't one of those companies.

It's far easier to create a viable potting soil with base mixes from Sun Gro or Premier than trying to fix FFOF. Regardless of your money war chest.

You read it correctly - it's just bad information.

CC

 

[Albertine]

It's far easier to create a viable potting soil with base mixes from Sun Gro or Premier than trying to fix FFOF. Regardless of your money war chest. CC


Which is partly why Professor Matt would be far better off getting money for pushing a Pollanite point of view, rather than taking it from the Canna reps for pushing bottles. No offense intended, but why else would you suddenly be posting what you are posting about their products?
Coming from the Bay area, I would think that the trendspotting would be more accurate. Vegan and organic just makes too much sense for medicine, but beyond that, growing medicine is following the same trajectory as the food industry - locally sourced fresh raw materials minimally processed.
Buying stuff in bottles for your plants is on the same level as buying Shake and Bake for your chicken.