Mk VII Terpenator

[Gray Wolf]

Could we just pre-pack our columns and keep them in a deep freezer with dry ice?

Yes.

Also keep the butane storage tank in the deep freezer and just drill holes in the freezer to run our lines out through, so the tank could remain closed in the freezer in the dry ice while we do the runs?

Bad idea in case of a leaky hose connection, valve seat, fitting, etc. A chilled bath will do the same thing safer.

If we use this method, would it matter if we use 1 1/2" columns or 4" columns? I have been concerned my columns will warm up too fast once I take them out. It seems like a fatter column would chill slower and potentially be cold enough for three runs as long as we keep the storage tank in the dry ice during the runs.

Skinny columns are more efficient than larger ones, and can be insulated to stay cold.

This is all relatively new to me, so I can't even fathom the Wizardry GW is speaking of with the MK VII yet.

Depending on my delusional state, sometimes I can't either.

 

[Gray Wolf]

So, I've dug up some more stuff on this.

ASME engineer stamped pressure vessels do not exist in any of the current companies.

However, I've heard of a 6" rule, stating that anything 6" or less in diameter is considered pipe? So it doesn't need the engineer STAMP.

From what I have read, if you require an ASME engineer stamp, you have to submit diagrams, they take into account the scope of your project. They then set benchmarks that they have to come inspect along the way.

I'm still trying to figure out what is actually required, but in WA the fire marshal all the way down at the local level is who is going to give the go or no go.

Graywolf, if you have an insight on this, or can let me know where I'm misinterpreting something, please do let me know!

An old post that I overlooked and went unanswered.

I submitted my blueprints, and component lists to a registered professional Mechanical Engineer, whom review my design and components and certified them to meet ANSI and ASME.

Here is a copy of the Mk IV certs. I will post the Mk III and V when I return from my morning dog walk, currently being promoted by Miss Lola.

 

[Gray Wolf]

The rest:

 

[dybert]

Thanks for the update

I'm still in the process of getting local jurisdiction info to get our hydrocarbon system built...

Our local fire marshall seems to think that an explosion proof (not ignition proof) facility is necessary.

 

[GratefulOne]

Thanks for the update

I'm still in the process of getting local jurisdiction info to get our hydrocarbon system built...

Our local fire marshall seems to think that an explosion proof (not ignition proof) facility is necessary.

Do you know what your state, county and city regs say about fire codes? Do you know which set of standards they use?

Many places the fire marshal has the power to require more than the standards. This normally happens when a fire marshal is uninformed about what they are looking at.

You will need to be slow and break it down for them. You will need to gain their trust that you want it done correctly and you have the skills to do it. Then they may "listen" to you.

I am happy to help if you need it. Fire Marshals are normally pretty easy to deal with if you can gain that trust.

 

[dybert]

Do you know what your state, county and city regs say about fire codes? Do you know which set of standards they use?

Many places the fire marshal has the power to require more than the standards. This normally happens when a fire marshal is uninformed about what they are looking at.

You will need to be slow and break it down for them. You will need to gain their trust that you want it done correctly and you have the skills to do it. Then they may "listen" to you.

I am happy to help if you need it. Fire Marshals are normally pretty easy to deal with if you can gain that trust.

We are working with him very closely and are on his "good side". He visits our facility regularly and doesn't care at all about our co2 extraction stuff. They have just been extremely wary of the explosive gasses (mainly because of morons blowing up their garages).

As it stands, we are probably going to have to set up a shipping container as an ignition proof room and get around it that way.

 

[GratefulOne]

Have you looked at making an explosion proof zone inside? A 2 hour fire wall will insolate areas per NFPA and UL standards. Then you only need to provide explosion proof wiring in that area and 20 feet (by vapor travel distance) around it. You will also need a hazardous area blower on the vent system (maybe explosion proof depending on design of area).

If he is requiring more than that it is more than NFPA requires.

I dealt with fire marshals who did not understand what they were looking at before. They were asking me to rebuild part of my building. I came up with a plan that was 100% in compliance with NFPA but did not require major new construction. It took me a few weeks of working with them before they could understand my whole plan. I just took each issue and sat down with the NFPA standards. We went page by page over each section that he had concerns about. After several days he saw were I was going and approved my plan.

It helps a ton if you buy the standards the fire marshal is using and learn them nearly word for word. When they see you have done this with understanding they will listen much better.

Good luck! I am happy to help if you ever need it.

 

[Gray Wolf]

I registered NFPA to access their documents, but can't copy them without buying a copy. Here are the ones most directly applicable, if your local firemarshal has copies handy, or if you want to register with them too.

With the new year came the suggestion from them that I join, so my access may change.

The flammable gas code discusses ways to control flammable gas fires, and one is not have fuel, another is not have atmosphere present to oxidize the fuel.

Not to mention they need an ignition source, hence the electrical code and one on static electricity.

Consider running a cabinet by him, purged with nitrogen from the heat exchangers discharge, with nitrogen operated pneumatic valves and an exterior pneumatic recovery pump.

Only electricals in the cabinet are the micro voltage thermocouples and hydrocarbon sensors.

Since it a small cabinet, when you evacuate it after the cycle, it doesn't dramatically affect HVAC loads, and it doesn't require steady dillution ventilation to insure potential leaks stay below ignition thresh hold which does.

Can even design the enclosure to direct the blast, instead of blowing outward, should ignition occur.

Code No Code Name
NFPA 1 Fire Code
NFPA 30 Flammable and Combustible Liquids Code
NFPA 55 Compressed Gases and Cryogenic Fluids Code
NFPA 56 Standard for Fire and Explosion Prevention During Cleaning and Purging of Flammable Gas Piping Systems
NFPA 58 Liquefied Petroleum Gas Code
NFPA 59A Standard for the Production, Storage, and Handling of Liquefied Natural Gas (LNG)
NFPA 67 Guide on Explosion Protection for Gaseous Mixtures in Pipe Systems
NFPA 69 Standard on Explosion Prevention Systems
NFPA 70 National Electrical Code®
NFPA 70E Standard for Electrical Safety in the Workplace®
NFPA 77 Recommended Practice on Static Electricity
NFPA 79 Electrical Standard for Industrial Machinery
NFPA 220 Standard on Types of Building Construction
NFPA 221 Standard for High Challenge Fire Walls, Fire Walls, and Fire Barrier Walls
NFPA 290 Standard for Fire Testing of Passive Protection Materials for Use on LP-Gas Containers
NFPA 329 Recommended Practice for Handling Releases of Flammable and Combustible Liquids and Gases
NFPA 386 Standard for Portable Shipping Tanks for Flammable and Combustible Liquids
NFPA 496 Standard for Purged and Pressurized Enclosures for Electrical Equipment
NFPA 497 Recommended Practice for the Classification of Flammable Liquids, Gases, or Vapors and of Hazardous (Classified) Locations for Electrical Installations in Chemical Process Areas

 

[Gray Wolf]

We are working with him very closely and are on his "good side". He visits our facility regularly and doesn't care at all about our co2 extraction stuff. They have just been extremely wary of the explosive gasses (mainly because of morons blowing up their garages).

As it stands, we are probably going to have to set up a shipping container as an ignition proof room and get around it that way.

A shipping container would make a fine extraction lab. I've discussed that with several people who picked up units from around $3.5 to $5K.

If you close off one end for the extraction room itself, you wouldn't have to move much air to ventilate it and you could make a hinged roof to vent any blasts straight up.

 

[unoriginal]

Shipping containers

Shipping containers

I was just thinking of using a shipping container last night.

I had called a few months ago and was able to find them for around $2700 in the Portland area, so shop around a little bit. They are much cheaper on the East coast, but $3500 seems a bit high, unless you are finding fully insulated units, typically reefer units, (no pun intended). I would personally buy a regular one and use spray foam cans to do a much better job insulating the inside and outside if needed. There is typically little difference in price between the 20' and 40' versions because there is so much more demand for the shorter ones.

Not sure what your height requirements are, but mine is only 6 1/2' clearance inside, so you may have to spend a little more on a taller, (high cube), one.

 

[Gray Wolf]

I was just thinking of using a shipping container last night.

I had called a few months ago and was able to find them for around $2700 in the Portland area, so shop around a little bit. They are much cheaper on the East coast, but $3500 seems a bit high, unless you are finding fully insulated units, typically reefer units, (no pun intended). I would personally buy a regular one and use spray foam cans to do a much better job insulating the inside and outside if needed. There is typically little difference in price between the 20' and 40' versions because there is so much more demand for the shorter ones.

Not sure what your height requirements are, but mine is only 6 1/2' clearance inside, so you may have to spend a little more on a taller, (high cube), one.

These were 40' reefers, and from a couple of sources. One paid $3500 and the other $5K, though I could be confused and the $5K could be for two units.

 

[oldgangster]

Gray Wolf, is there any way I can see your attached thumbnail from your first post any better? As I stated in another thread, I worked for years running an amazingly similar process (well, part of our process).
Our initial solvent wash was 2500 gallons under pressure. In a building with a blow-out wall to meet all the guidelines you touched on above.
I have some ideas and questions...... and yes, some suggestions for improvement for efficiency, safety, and ease of operation.
Anything I suggest will only be after tested in my own mini-process.

I found this site trying to find RSO for my 81 yr old Dad.

 

[Pangea]

2500 gallons! What were you processing?

 

[Gray Wolf]

Gray Wolf, is there any way I can see your attached thumbnail from your first post any better? As I stated in another thread, I worked for years running an amazingly similar process (well, part of our process).
Our initial solvent wash was 2500 gallons under pressure. In a building with a blow-out wall to meet all the guidelines you touched on above.
I have some ideas and questions...... and yes, some suggestions for improvement for efficiency, safety, and ease of operation.
Anything I suggest will only be after tested in my own mini-process.

I found this site trying to find RSO for my 81 yr old Dad.

Tests using a Mk VA2 to see how far I could drive the temperature down with vacuum boiling were disappointing, compared to just measuring the temperature of a plastic bag sitting in liquid butane evaporating in fast moving air.

While I observed -27F on the bag, I was only able to achieve 31.9F at my maximum pumping rate inside a pot.

That would work with time, but we are all in a hurry, sooo instead of injecting more butane, I will be dropping the temperature to 31.9F vacuum boiling the existing mixture, and then drop it further using liquid N2 to speed up the process.

Unfortunately, though I've started doodling, my conceptual sketches aren't complete, but here is the newest conceptual schematic, as well as the incomplete design of the details using all jacked vessels. It shows general layout and some of the tank details, but no valves, etc.

As it looks like WolfWurx may be converting Beta Bitch, our original beta Mk VA prototype test sled, to a Mk VII configuration for the same customer, instead of simply updating her to Mk VA2 configuration, it may work out that we can test actual hardware soon.

 

[oldgangster]

Tests using a Mk VA2 to see how far I could drive the temperature down with vacuum boiling were disappointing, compared to just measuring the temperature of a plastic bag sitting in liquid butane evaporating in fast moving air.

While I observed -27F on the bag, I was only able to achieve 31.9F at my maximum pumping rate inside a pot.

That would work with time, but we are all in a hurry, sooo instead of injecting more butane, I will be dropping the temperature to 31.9F vacuum boiling the existing mixture, and then drop it further using liquid N2 to speed up the process.

Unfortunately, though I've started doodling, my conceptual sketches aren't complete, but here is the newest conceptual schematic, as well as the incomplete design of the details using all jacked vessels. It shows general layout and some of the tank details, but no valves, etc.

As it looks like WolfWurx may be converting Beta Bitch, our original beta Mk VA prototype test sled, to a Mk VII configuration for the same customer, instead of simply updating her to Mk VA2 configuration, it may work out that we can test actual hardware soon.

Thank you! I just read the 118 pages of the terp thread.....learned lots. Visited the fab shop I worked out of at one time and made a micro closed loop with 3/4" ss tubing.....used a as filter housing for my pots (flat bottomed and flat topped). Even made a temporary vac oven to purge.

Grabbed a bag of some garbage brick 'reggie' and had success and excellent recovery of the butane.

This is a pic taken through the lexan top of my fabbed vac oven...


Wish I had had the presence of mind to photograph the mini column and such but, I got sidetracked going through the boxes of stainless valves, swagelock fittings, guages, etc I could get at cost to build my own larger unit. Mini unit broken down and cleaned and into the scrap bin. Engineer didn't want to risk any cross contamination using the pieces of it in their applications. (No....extraction not done there. Lol)

 

[oldgangster]

2500 gallons! What were you processing?

We were making a monomer precursor used in the production of perflourinated membrane.....which in layman's terms is a type of membrane that an electrical charge can be applied to making the microscopic holes in the membrane open or close. This membrane is used in the making of hydrogen fuel cells. Our main vessel was made of Hastelloy, an exotic grade of metal.......our stuff would eat stainless over time. Our solvent was F113, which in 1996 the in house price (because we made it at another site) was $110,000 for a 55 gallon drum. I could go into all the chemistry but it is pointless. Even though I am retired the company is a stickler about proprietary information. E. I. DuPont is where I worked.

 

[snake11]

Gray Wolf, is there any way I can see your attached thumbnail from your first post any better? As I stated in another thread, I worked for years running an amazingly similar process (well, part of our process).
Our initial solvent wash was 2500 gallons under pressure. In a building with a blow-out wall to meet all the guidelines you touched on above.
I have some ideas and questions...... and yes, some suggestions for improvement for efficiency, safety, and ease of operation.
Anything I suggest will only be after tested in my own mini-process.

I found this site trying to find RSO for my 81 yr old Dad.

Did you guys worry about static there? What safety precautions did you use? Thanks!!

 

[oldgangster]

Did you guys worry about static there? What safety precautions did you use? Thanks!!

Pot, column, and recovery tank in a 6 level enclosed tower building with a blow-out wall on the back of the building. Everything in this process section is totally contained. Recirculating airflow in tower has online GCs to monitor for leaks.....built in monitors for every stream (vapor, gases, liquids). Only worked with spark proof tools and only when process is shut down.

Not going into all the chemistry but if we had a worse case scenario situation and the unit exploded.....on a still day with no air movement.....projected 10 sq mile dead zone.

 

[Hydrosun]

Pot, column, and recovery tank in a 6 level enclosed tower building with a blow-out wall on the back of the building. Everything in this process section is totally contained. Recirculating airflow in tower has online GCs to monitor for leaks.....built in monitors for every stream (vapor, gases, liquids). Only worked with spark proof tools and only when process is shut down.

Not going into all the chemistry but if we had a worse case scenario situation and the unit exploded.....on a still day with no air movement.....projected 10 sq mile dead zone.

Hey where can I pick up one of those, sounds like a perfect extractor for small studio apartment runs

 

[Gray Wolf]

Hey where can I pick up one of those, sounds like a perfect extractor for small studio apartment runs

You sure have to admire an extractor with those capabilities!