Clackamas Coot Mix Wrong Ratio

[xmobotx]

how is it irrelevant when neem oil is produced by cold-pressing the seeds & neem cake is the seeds?

i don;t feel the need to go so far as using the oil. it's kind of a PITA to get it emulsified. mostly i find it beneficial in the soil but i rotate a tea from the meal in to my foliar regimen for IPM. all those studies show that it mostly discourages harmful biology while having minimal effect on beneficial biology. if we were considering H202 foliar or ISO foliar things would be different

this thing is seeming like a strawman though

 

[Avenger]

Let us see how many are relevant to the argument at hand (neem oil foliar applications).

Why does this make a difference? Neem oil is not simply made up limonoids.






Damnit, called off to work. Loverly. I'll finish this later.



One sense or another, Weird. Surely I don't have to explain that as well.

I was not intending to get involved in your discussion with Weird, but rather was posting those links in response to Microbeman's request for such.

I have asked for information from some of the purveyors of neem cake and associated products as to the effects on beneficial organisms but I've not noticed a response.

Cheers

 

[Microbeman]

MM, I'm going to try and answer as many of these as I can.

1. Yes, when I buy neem products they are from the same producer. I did find another producer only to find out they are both sourcing from the same supplier. Currently I'm still using the products from Ahimsa Organics neemresource.com

2. This is what they state on their website for neem cake, and I know they can't make any pesticidal claims regarding karanja due to EPA restrictions:
Ahimsa Organics Neem Cake - OMRI Listed
Aerates, Promotes Plant Resistance, Improves Soil Quality. Excellent for Vegan Organic Gardening.
Neem Cake is the residue obtained from neem seed kernels which have been crushed to extract the oil. It is an excellent Organic Soil Amendment. Neem Cake has been known to enrich the soil and protect the plant. Earthworm populations have been known to increase where Neem Cake has been applied.

Use full strength or mixed with other organic (kelp, seaweed, manure, etc.) or inorganic inputs to an extent of 10% to 15% by weight. Apply before (the area can be prepared up to a week or 10 days before planting) or during planting or for established plants around root zone. Use mixed into the soil 6-8 inches or as basal dressing. Coverage:180 to 360 lbs./acre, 1lb. for plots 100 to 160 sq.ft.

Exercise caution while using in potting mixes. Using more than 1% could cause a lack of seed germination or stunt young plants.

3. My comment regarding microscopy was in relation to our soil. I haven't noticed a decline in microbial activity when comparing soil with and without neem/karanja added. It was purely a qualitative analysis, you can derive what you will from it. I haven't tested it as a feed stock or isolated it. If I get some free time, I will add that to my list.

4. Ideal usage of neem cake would depend on the purpose of the application. Spurr has commented that the azadirachtin and other pesticidal compounds break down quickly in soil (I haven't read anything personally on the subject). I use it as a treatment for fungus gnats or other soil based pests in container media in the form of a soil drench by solubilizing the neem cake and then watering the soil. For the reasons mentioned by others, this is why I suggested this application is best used as a treatment rather than preventative. I've found it to be very effective.

A lot of my knowledge of neem has come from long conversations with Coot, who as you know as a strong foundation in Indian culture and has done more research/reading on neem and it's properties.

I'll send you some neem if you want to do the microscopy work. I've just been really busy. Hope I hit all the major points.

Thank you. My lab is completely broken down now for moving and setting up the motorhome, so any testing will be waiting.

In accordance with the above recommendation of 1% is that the rate at which both cake and oil should be used?

Anything on neem cake tea?

 

[Microbeman]

I was not intending to get involved in your discussion with Weird, but rather was posting those links in response to Microbeman's request for such.



Cheers

and Microbeman thanked him

 

[Microbeman]

http://prr.hec.gov.pk/Chapters/941-3.pdf

http://www.sustech.edu/staff_publications/20120507114834981.pdf

https://www.researchgate.net/public...E_A_NOVEL_APPROACH_FOR_SOIL_HEALTH_MANAGEMENT

http://www.cabdirect.org/abstracts/19911952312.html

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK234645/

http://www.scielo.cl/scielo.php?pid=S0718-95162015005000075&script=sci_arttext

https://www.researchgate.net/public..._wilt_Affected_Coconut_Monocropping_Ecosystem

http://www.scielo.br/scielo.php?pid=S1516-89132012000600001&script=sci_arttext

So someone needs to do a proper review. I've got no time. I've gotta move, build a motorhome lab, my dog is sick, I ain't got no girlfriend and I can't sing.


I did a cursory review and one paper and book has some great info about the benefits and is easy to read. I saved most to my library.

As far as harm to beneficial microbes, the story seems that if the organism is tolerant of neem as a food source they can thrive. If neem is poisonous to them they die when they ingest it. (that's how it works) If your pests do not eat the neem then theoretically it will not work.

So the beneficials which eat matter, like fungi and some nematodes mostly suffer from neem. Bacteria/archaea which are not neem lovers can be killed. Predator insects and organisms which eat other organisms are mostly not effected. One report said earth worms did well consuming neem.

Thank you Avenger!

 

[Weird]

how is it irrelevant when neem oil is produced by cold-pressing the seeds & neem cake is the seeds?

i don;t feel the need to go so far as using the oil. it's kind of a PITA to get it emulsified. mostly i find it beneficial in the soil but i rotate a tea from the meal in to my foliar regimen for IPM. all those studies show that it mostly discourages harmful biology while having minimal effect on beneficial biology. if we were considering H202 foliar or ISO foliar things would be different

this thing is seeming like a strawman though

Since your the dude who has to deal with these forums I will break it down to you and you can be the judge.

I came in to share my experiences using both neem meal and neem oil, and how different applications can be applied to preserve your soil microbe balance and diversity. I used them as suggested in the forums here and through trial and error learned to use them effectively.

Mikell came in my opinion, and as he did in eagle20 thread he played devils advocate saying that he wouldn't use them out of interest for preserving leaf and flower born microbe colonies aka phyllobacteria.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phyllosphere

"he phyllosphere is a term used in microbiology to refer to the total above-ground portions of plants as habitat for microorganisms"

Then I went to state that the importance of the rhizosphere, the food soil web and related microorganisms relationships trumps the ones in the phyllosphere and that there are no beneficial bacteria that are required or more efficient that those that exist in living soil. It was a moot point since the family of bacteria that exists in the phyllosphere are compatible with neem oil, and I posted the scientific study to prove it. I can represent it if you like.

I also stated that if you think that there is some genetic trigger that has yet to be discovered or exploited in regards to cannabis he was delusional. I will go as far to say I don't believe he has much if any field experience with neem oil or neem meal, including successful use. I called his fake interest in the phyllosphere out as well. Finally I accused but not necessarily in this order I accused him of having a perception based on what he has learned reading on canna sites without having the field experience to back it up.

There are other threads its happened in as well too but normally after I call his bluff he jokes about and it and that's it.

Sorry I am an old school dude, If you are going to talk to talk show you can walk the walk. That is how it boils down to me.

You be the judge.

 

[dank.frank]

***post removed by request - not moderator related***




dank.Frank

 

[Robrites]

Subbed

 

[T.Patchouli]

This thread has it all!

 

[mrS0ul]

I can't sing.

Fuck it. Sing anyway...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y5xXL7DZaZA
Authentic Blues.

 

[KIS]

Thank you. My lab is completely broken down now for moving and setting up the motorhome, so any testing will be waiting.

In accordance with the above recommendation of 1% is that the rate at which both cake and oil should be used?

Anything on neem cake tea?

As far as I know that rate is for adding the neem cake as a soil amendment in soil mixes. I can ask Ahimsa if you wish.

The neem cake tea came directly from Coot. I had good success eradicating fungus gnats on multiple occasions with it and also in reducing but not eliminating root aphids.

 

[KIS]

So someone needs to do a proper review.

I think this is really all we can conclude at this point. I unfortunately don't have the time either right now.

 

[dank.frank]

***post removed by request - not moderator related***



dank.Frank

 

[dank.frank]

***post removed by request - not moderator related***



dank.Frank

 

[Weird]

Try the gypsum to free your mag.

Thanks for the input however not the problem, cultivars in same soil on subsequent run did not show the same problem, I went by my instinct and tried microbiological controls first.

 

[Weird]

For the sake of argument, you're dismissing an area of great importance.
"Not so much?"
I could say that about air, water, and really everything you're putting in your soil. I've mixed fine batches of soil simply by dumping in some of this and some of that. Intuition tells me when to stop dumping. Everything is important. It's a whole system. Anything can be overdone and abused. It's a matter of balance. Not everybody will agree with you and not everybody is wrong. In fact none of us really know anything. We're just guessing. That don't matter, we're just growing plants and we're not even doing that. They grow themselves.

I put my argument to Xmobot you will see it I am sure.

But hey let me share some deductive reasoning with you

Plants evolved a very robust and complex microbiological relationships with the soil and they did it in soil.

The phyllosphere microbiology evolved a robust complex microbiological relationship with the surface of the plant.

Very few specimens (if any iirc the only ones that exists are soil borne microbiological dependencies) in the plant world comparatively need specific microbiology to grow, let alone phyllobacteria. In fact one of the categories used to classify a plant as a weed is a lack of reliance on specific environmental like specific bacteria to grow.

But it really boils down to this, do you think the bacteria, fungus and insects on the surface of the plant need to be preserved?

Because that is why Mikell disagrees with the use of neem oil, even though I proved the one thing you might want like bacillus thuringiensis is not effected negatively by neem oil. Even more ironic since it can be applied to soil and that is where it came from.

In fact I am willing to wager that all beneficial phyllosphere bacteria are variations of soil bacteria.

https://microbewiki.kenyon.edu/index.php/Bacillus_thuringiensis

It is a soil bacterium and thrives at body temperature

But hey, you guys want to focus on PHYLLOSPHERE interactions have at it, but just like Dr Fever talking shit in LOS thread about composting fat you guys are supporting a theoretically bad idea and no one has provided an iota of why it is.

 

[moses wellfleet]

...Is this shit for real?

 

[heady blunts]

MM is over there like

 

[leadsled]

Math is fundamental

Math is fundamental

Calculations regarding neem cake:
1% of 43560 is 435.6 lbs per acre.

25% of 43560 is 10890 lbs per acre. That is what 1/2 cup per cubic foot works out to per acre.

Finally a use for math... LOL

 

[xmobotx]

let's do keep the DF vs KIS argument out of thread. I'm going to leave the deletion of the last few posts up to a more informed moderator ~assuming they will end up deleted as being off topic {not censored} people can make their own decisions & we'll move forward following the rules i assume also?