Clackamas Coot Mix Wrong Ratio

[Aksala]

I personally don't like the ratio in that mix. I prefer 3.1.1

Ya but you're weird.

 

[heady blunts]

Had a couple questions for ya Heady, if you don't mind. Almost pm'd ya but figured if you were gonna share the knowledge maybe more could benefit from it to.

Since compost quality seems to be so important, I was gonna try to use EWC instead of compost. I know it would be expensive, but curious if you can think of any problems that might incur from that switch? I assume it will be ok, just pricey, and vary in quality depending on the castings as well.

Also... would you mind posting your modified recipe? Curious to see the difference.

Thanks,
Mr^^

hmm you're not alone in coming to that conclusion about EWC.

again that decision comes down to quality. the compost that is richest in microbial populations is high quality EWC. but high quality thermal or manure based composts have better levels than shitty EWC.

i conceptualize the roll of the compost component to be first and foremost a biological innoculation. you import a microbial population to jump start the living nature of your soilless mix.

the second role of compost is the physical properties of decomposed organic material e.g. increased water retention and high CEC.

the least important factor IMO is the "nutritional value" that can be made available to the plant through the metabolic processes of your soil microbes. not that i ignore this factor, but simply that it is not my major motivation in adding compost.

so, when faced with which bagged composts to use, i first travel around to see what my options are. then i compare cost and quality. if it costs more than i can afford for quality EWC, i'd rather use excellent thermal compost than settle on a shit product like wiggle worm.

that's exactly what happened to me when i built this soil in maine. castings are crazy expensive out here! but we have a fantastic compost company called coast of maine whose products i think highly of.

so i didn't add any EWC to the mix. i bought one small bag of the best castings i could find (worm power is considered the best quality, i got coast of maine EWC which i think is also made by worm power), and 18 cu. ft. of thermal compost.

i used the EWC to make an ACT which i used to soak the soil after i had mixed it. this is the best use for excellent castings that are too expensive to be incorporated into the mix IMO.

i like to have a little bit of manure-based compost if i can find excellent quality. in cali i was using malibu bu's blend biodamic dairy cow compost. great product. i found a nice local maine farm compost made with dairy cow manure and crustacean shells, benson farms surf n turf, and used that for 2/5 of my compost input.

the remaining 3/5 of the compost fraction was good old coast of maine's lobster compost, one of the best bagged compost products in the country IMVHO.

also, unless your castings were made by worms bedded on excellent thermal compost (worm power), they were likely bedded on peat (wiggle worm) so the physical properties can vary drastically. if you were to use exclusively wiggle worm for your compost input the soil texture would be fucked.

i've seen wiggle worm turn into a hydrophobic hard pan in a matter of days when top dressed on an otherwise healthy and productive container.

SO, to make a long story short, i've never tried a mix with 100% EWC as the compost element. and don't waste your money on wiggle worm.

you can find some papers that talk about declining benefits after reaching 10% total volume of EWC, but i take those with a grain of salt since they're not intentionally building living soils or doing no till in those studies.

now that we're making our own castings, they are applied liberally, with no concern for that 10% number lol. the garden is a functioning no till situation for now, and the home made castings close the loop we open by harvesting.

if you're in no rush you can make your own castings of much higher quality than you can buy for a fraction of the price. i've been having the best results of my life with a simple "static" worm bin that i build all at once and then leave alone for 2--3 months (besides watering it occasionally). i just use a large smart pot or smart sak (the 100gallon compost sack), layer with coast of maine, kelp meal, crab shell meal, basalt, and neem cake, then add worms and water in. after a couple months it is completely worked through and i can screen out the mature worms to add to a new bin.

if your'e planning to practice no till i'd recommend building the worm bins even if they're not ready in time for soil building. they pay for themselves real quick when you're using shovelfuls of gorgeous castings for no pennies.

phew sorry if that got a little ramble-y.

heady's wicked lobstah mix

makes 2 yards

3 bales of peat fluffed and hydrated with aloe or yucca (one 3.8 cuft compressed bale =~6 cuft decompressed)
9 bags of coast of maine lobster compost (1 cuft each)
6 bags of benson farms "surf & turf" compost (1 cuft each)
1 bag chunky perlite (4 cuft)
1 bag super coarse perlite (4 cuft)
2 bags buckwheat hulls (2 cuft each)
4 bags royal oak lump charcoal smashed and precharged with neptune's fish and seaweed (17# each)

50 cups oyster shell meal
1 bag granite dust (50#)
1 bag "brixblend" paramagnetic basalt dust (50#)
1 bag "richmix" mineralized biochar (25#) (not necessary but I had it)
1 bag granulated azomite (44#)

1 bag neem seed meal (20#)
1 bag neptune's harvest crab shells (50#)
1 bag maine harvested kelp (50#)

 

[heady blunts]

Just so I am clear is X saying here that to amend at half of the rates quoted above as being beneficial and if so why?

i can't speak for my friend ecks, but i did come across a little paragraph on another site by our friend microbe man that might be appropriate here.

One is either employing living soil methods or not. Living soil is simply what it is called and has enough life going on in it to generate nutrients from basic organic matter provided. It is not a certain mix with enough nutrients included to carry the plant through to harvest. It is not spikes and layers. It must be of sufficient volume and depth to support the life needed for continuance. It does not (usually) happen instantly, it builds over time and is not for the impatient. It is not for the hand wringing over perfect soil mineral ratio balances. There is no secret formula and it can function with various soil types geographically. I'm a real supporter of using your local resources. It is not always perfect. It is something I observed to work and began writing about.

MM and coot don't agree 100% on everything, but their methods certainly complement one another.

 

[KONY]

I noticed my plants in coots mix, are kinda harsh to smoke.... I figure I am not watering till enough runoff mid flower. I should add this caveat: I am a perfectionist, with mild ocd; what I consider harsh, most here probably don't.

Heady; I think what the worms are bedded on is much less important than what they are fed. Granted these are similar, and some companies are sealing the worms in buckets with black peat moss and worm chow, and force feeding them.... Most of the mediocre worm castings are fed a mix of worm chow and cardboard.... Worm chow is basically corn meal IIRC.

 

[Corpsey]

I noticed my plants in coots mix, are kinda harsh to smoke.... I figure I am not watering till enough runoff mid flower. I should add this caveat: I am a perfectionist, with mild ocd; what I consider harsh, most here probably don't.

Heady; I think what the worms are bedded on is much less important than what they are fed. Most of the medeiocer worm castings are fed a mix of worm chow and cardboard.... this produces castings, however not nearly as microbrial rich as the worm power castings that are fed composted manure. Worm chow is basically corn meal IIRC.

i kinda expect to take some shit for stating this lol but whenever i used neem seed meal my smoke was harsh. burned my throat more too. at first i just used less but now i don't use it at all and my smoke is very smooth.
but i also have had root aphids for like 1.5+ years. haha sooo yeah. smooth smoke though!

 

[heady blunts]

huh, i've got no side by side to compare with so i can't really weigh in too heavily on that.

my smoke seems far smoother than most stuff i see on the market, but that's apples and oranges for the most part.

i trust both of your experience so i appreciate you sharing your observations. i wish we could all get together for an epic sesh

 

[xmobotx]

some people are sensitive to neem. the jury's still out for me but i have reduced my use of it & i don;t foliar w/ it {just in case} mainly i like to do a light top-dress w/ it in early veg as a preventive measure for the soil

 

[growingcrazy]

some people are sensitive to neem. the jury's still out for me but i have reduced my use of it & i don;t foliar w/ it {just in case} mainly i like to do a light top-dress w/ it in early veg as a preventive measure for the soil

What amount would you consider to be good for a new mix per cubic foot? ( a with 1-1/2 month veg time in mind)

 

[KIS]

What amount would you consider to be good for a new mix per cubic foot? ( a with 1-1/2 month veg time in mind)

1 cup/cubic ft.

If you're nervous about using neem, you could substitute karanja cake instead in regards to it's pesticidal properties.

 

[xmobotx]

& there you have it, most aren't scared of it at all {1 cup to a cubic foot is much like 2 TBS to a gallon of soil} when i do a light top-dress, it's 1 tsp per gallon of soil

i mixed cootz mix at the suggested level of 1/2 cup & the 1st go around was a little rough but the next was fine {i only did 1 container & i do similar but different now w/ everything getting mixed back to my ROLS mix in a garbage can ~eventually}

 

[Weird]

1 cup/cubic ft.

If you're nervous about using neem, you could substitute karanja cake instead in regards to it's pesticidal properties.

Proper neem meal or oil use is really about application method and timing, use it wrong (like oil foliar week before harvest) you will be unhappy.

There are a bunch of nuances about neem meal I never see discussed and it really highlights how much of this no til movement is seat of the pants, nuances that have an impact on the results of the grow. Big reason I stayed on the periphery of that group while they where here and dipped out of their new site shortly thereafter. Reminds me of the computer industry in the 90's.

I got into the computer industry early 80's

 

[growingcrazy]

What is the suspected lifespan of neem in the soil?

 

[Weird]

I personally won't use neem oil once flowers start to set in, neem meal tea no more than a week or so past that.

Timing matters in other aspects as well, neem meal is anti-fungal and when you make a tea and use it on your soil you are effecting bacterial/fungal balance. You can use it as a foliar but I find it less effective than oil.

IMHE the best way to use neem is to apply oil based emulsified foliar in veg, neem meal teas in very and transitioning into flower. If your soil is healthy, your plants should have thick enough cell walls and enough SARS response established to fend off insects during maturation even if the substances in neem meal not longer are at efficient levels.

If your soil is fucked up in flower and your plants unhealthy, pests and pathogens will become established do to their compromised health.

Neem is best as a proactive tool, it can be used to eradicate but at much higher concentrations and not always without needing time for soil to normalize again.

 

[xmobotx]

What is the suspected lifespan of neem in the soil?

seed meals, as fertilizer, have an expected duration in soil mixes ranging from 6 mos to 1 yr. the aromatics in neem seed meal likely do not exceed a month. this is why i advocate very small top-dressing. these can be utilized & timed to address the limited duration of the aromatics so that repeated applications do not cause a build up of fertility & create toxic soil conditions

I personally won't use neem oil once flowers start to set in, neem meal tea no more than a week or so past that.

Timing matters in other aspects as well, neem meal is anti-fungal and when you make a tea and use it on your soil you are effecting bacterial/fungal balance. You can use it as a foliar but I find it less effective than oil.

same here. i wouldn't advocate foliar in flower however some essential oils at light rates can be handy for continued IPM ~still not a good plan to spray once flower set begins. better to be proactive w/ adequate soil Ca combined w/ occasional Ca foliar & a k-sil foliar at the flip ~these help "harden" the plant making cell walls tougher for insects to chew

not so sure about the anti-fungal thing as chunks of neem seed meal in the compost or EWC bin will fuzz up much like oatmeal does. medicinally, neem is used to combat fungal conditions w/ people & pets {e.g. toenail fungus} likely many have heard of combining neem & karanja oil to treat mange in dogs. it does not seem to discourage beneficial soil fungus ~quite the opposite

Neem is best as a proactive tool, it can be used to eradicate but at much higher concentrations and not always without needing time for soil to normalize again.

absolutely true. everything about any IPM component should be proactive. IPM is a totally different approach than the typical pesticide thinking ~in that it is proactive. pesticide application used proactively would be disastrous. organic controls used reactively may not be very effective particularly in low amounts {such as won;t affect the quality of your finished product}

nice contribution weird

ETA, for those who don;t already know, remember to do your foliars before lights out so the wet plants are in the dark. esp. w/ neem the light will damage your plants shining through that foliar moisture

 

[Mikell]

Never put much merit in qualitative observations of microbiology myself.

 

[leadsled]

Happy to hear farmers speaking up about there experiences.

In my experience, I have found the clack coots rate of neem cake work well with a conventional salt grow or grows where the soil is tossed after each run.

If you do a little research into the books and information that is recommended about neem cake there are some conflicts.

Maybe clack has not read the anti nitrification information he mentions? Or does not account for rates and the use of urea in india.

Appears Indian farmers like to use urea and the neem cake helps with anti nitrification.

Neem the treatise. nitrification. 22 results
https://books.google.com/books?id=PyYRUCoIDk4C&pg=PA509&lpg=PA509&dq=neem+the+treatise+antinitrification&source=bl&ots=yVtbPoTQgV&sig=LXCCcHXiHtr4l6fmGMUHh1Thsok&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjJ6qmvvNnKAhVC82MKHTdIBqQQ6AEIHzAA#v=onepage&q=nitrification&f=false
There is some info to get started:
if anyone wants to do more research on it. There are mentions of how neem effects both chemical and biological.
Also mentioned how there is much that is not understood about neem.

Aside all that information.
The main problem I see if that rate of neem cake is much higher than recommended.
---
The manufacturer recommendation:
Ahimsa Organics Neem Cake - OMRI Listed
Aerates, Promotes Plant Resistance, Improves Soil Quality. Excellent for Vegan Organic Gardening.
Neem Cake is the residue obtained from neem seed kernels which have been crushed to extract the oil. It is an excellent Organic Soil Amendment. Neem Cake has been known to enrich the soil and protect the plant. Earthworm populations have been known to increase where Neem Cake has been applied.

Use full strength or mixed with other organic (kelp, seaweed, manure, etc.) or inorganic inputs to an extent of 10% to 15% by weight. Apply before (the area can be prepared up to a week or 10 days before planting) or during planting or for established plants around root zone. Use mixed into the soil 6-8 inches or as basal dressing. Coverage:180 to 360 lbs./acre, 1lb. for plots 100 to 160 sq.ft.

Exercise caution while using in potting mixes. Using more than 1% could cause a lack of seed germination or stunt young plants.

------

If I use the values on the left using yards my calculations will be incorrect.
But if I convert ac-foot to yards using the right table will be correct.


Source:
http://www.nrcs.usda.gov/Internet/FSE_DOCUMENTS/nrcs142p2_022760.pdf
to convert cubic feet to gallons.
cubic feet x 7.48=gallons
acre-foot is 43,560 cubic feet
acre-foot = 1613.3 cubic yards
acre-foot is 325,848 gallons
1 acre foot weights 4,000,000 lbs
1 square yard = 9 square feet
Acre-furrow-slice = one acre to a depth of 6 2/3 inches. +/- 2,000,000 lbs of soil.
Acre-foot = one acre to a depth of 12 inches. 4,000,000 lbs of soil.


Weight Vs Volume
Measuring cups is surprisingly inaccurate. Cups that should be the same volume often vary a lot depending on the material used. Worse, a lot of inaccuracy creeps into a recipe depending on what is being measured and who is doing the measurement. In my experience, the same recipe scaled multiple times can vary by as much as 10 % relative to the true weight of the ingredients. This is often the reason that people find that a particular recipe "fails" when they try to reproduce it—inaccuracies have crept in at every step. Working by weight is both faster and more accurate.

1/2 cup per cubic foot of neem cake =
NPK per acre.:
653.385 lbs N per acre.
108.89 lbs P per acre.
217.7 lbs K per acre

Would list cal, mg, s % but do not have them.

neem seed meal is 6-1-2
1/2 cup of neem seed meal weights 4oz.
1 cubic foot is 7.48 gallons of soil
1 acre foot is equal to 43559.9 cubic feet
4 oz x 43559.9 cu ft = 174236 oz.
174236 oz = 10889.75 lbs.
That rate converted to 1 acre is 10,889.75 lbs neem cake.
6% of 10,890 is how actual N is calculated.
That is 653 lbs of N per acre just from neem cake.

Ok the water soluble vs insoluble levels are also not taken into account. But that is a shit ton more than the manufacturer recommends.
Please do double check my math.
What do you think??

I questioned this and the name calling started.

Some more screwed up math calculations were made.

With all due respect.

 

[Weird]

seed meals, as fertilizer, have an expected duration in soil mixes ranging from 6 mos to 1 yr. the aromatics in neem seed meal likely do not exceed a month. this is why i advocate very small top-dressing. these can be utilized & timed to address the limited duration of the aromatics so that repeated applications do not cause a build up of fertility & create toxic soil conditions



same here. i wouldn't advocate foliar in flower however some essential oils at light rates can be handy for continued IPM ~still not a good plan to spray once flower set begins. better to be proactive w/ adequate soil Ca combined w/ occasional Ca foliar & a k-sil foliar at the flip ~these help "harden" the plant making cell walls tougher for insects to chew

not so sure about the anti-fungal thing as chunks of neem seed meal in the compost or EWC bin will fuzz up much like oatmeal does. medicinally, neem is sued to combat fungal conditions w/ people & pets {e.g. toenail fungus} likely many have heard of combining neem & karanja oil to treat mange in dogs. it does not seem to discourage beneficial soil fungus ~quite the opposite



absolutely true. everything about any IPM component should be proactive. IPM is a totally different approach than the typical pesticide thinking ~in that it is proactive. pesticide application used proactively would be disastrous. organic controls used reactively may not be very effective particularly in low amounts {such as won;t affect the quality of your finished product}

nice contribution weird

ETA, for those who don;t already know, remember to do your foliars before lights out so the wet plants are in the dark. esp. w/ neem the light will damage your plants shining through that foliar moisture

TY

It is anti fungal but I believe it's mode of action is fungal

here are some very interesting articles that show how i can be counter-productive in context to existing soil beneficials and pathogens

food for thought

this just read the first paragraph

https://books.google.com/books?id=8X9EAAAAQBAJ&pg=PA321&lpg=PA321&dq=is+neem+cake+fungal?&source=bl&ots=laQRbIqMc3&sig=sk1TeNEh8DzcejhHLmUgjcI9sHo&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiQj8m4idrKAhULeT4KHdYjCcM4HhDoAQgkMAI#v=onepage&q=is%20neem%20cake%20fungal%3F&f=false


Effect of Fertilizers and Neem Cake Amendment in Soil on Spore Germination of Arthrobotrys dactyloides


http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3774886/

Interaction of root knot nematode, VAM fungus and neem cake in ameded soils on Gladiolus

http://www.inaav.ba.cnr.it/vol32-1, 2004/vol32-1n.pdf

there is more stuff out there

interesting because i have seen the negative causation from improper use and it states microbiological reasoning to why which really can effect application strategy

neem oil foliar should have little to no effect on the rhizosphere microbiology opposed to putting it neem meal in the rhizosphere itself

 

[Mikell]

What about the poor microbes in the phyllosphere?

Poor buggers are so often smothered in neem and 30 other products people are obsessed with spraying.

I prefer to wait for natural coconut rain to fall from the sky. Makes the girls stand up like viagriated seniors.

 

[Weird]

I prefer chocolate rain to coconut rain

 

[oti$]

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