Clackamas Coot Mix Wrong Ratio

[dank.frank]

Fair enough Xmo...I digress. Apologies for the clutter. This isn't the first time this has come up...obviously. I appreciate your patience in the matter.

I'll agree - not the proper place. That doesn't make me wrong, though.



dank.Frank

 

[Scrappy4]

Do bugs gain resistance from frequent neem use? Not in my experince.

Does it kill neematodes? It is listed as a neemicide. That tells me yes.

Is it a fungicide? Yes, but it does break down by fungal activity. I done seed it.

Does it provide N? Yes, and beyond that, plants like it. (they tell me)

Is kiss a profiteer? Hahahaha, we live in a capilist society. Take a good long look around. Embrace it, take a toke and forget it. You, I and the world will benefit.

Will I keep using neem? Yes, until I happen on something better.

It's imported, should we use it? Generations have used it successfully in India. And I want me sum, if I could grow a neem tree, I would. If I find something better and local ill use it. But until then....

.If I found diamond dust grew better herb, I'd try to get me sum. I do the best I know how, with what I have to work with. I grow for some seriously messed up people and I surely do not want to compromise them in any way

 

[Mikell]

how is it irrelevant when neem oil is produced by cold-pressing the seeds & neem cake is the seeds?

i don;t feel the need to go so far as using the oil. it's kind of a PITA to get it emulsified. mostly i find it beneficial in the soil but i rotate a tea from the meal in to my foliar regimen for IPM. all those studies show that it mostly discourages harmful biology while having minimal effect on beneficial biology. if we were considering H202 foliar or ISO foliar things would be different

this thing is seeming like a strawman though

All those studies prove next to nothing about regular applications of neem oil. Neem oil is not neem meal, neem extract is not neem oil, etc, etc.

While many have the same compounds, the concentration varies greatly. Fatty acids make up a large percent of neem oil but are only found in trace quantities in neem seed meal (I assume). Neem extracts contain much higher quantities of limonoids, with some containing over 20 compounds and others simply azadirachtin A + B.

My argument is that regular applications of neem oil probably wipe out a lot of beneficials and as we all know, pest species are the first to repopulate. You're potentially created a system dependent on regular application.


Or maybe I'm just spending all this time to stir the pot. Who knows. Ask Wierd if you want a subjective answer.

I was not intending to get involved in your discussion with Weird, but rather was posting those links in response to Microbeman's request for such.



Cheers

Apologies man, I just gathered you up in the ol' article refutin' storm.

I also stated that if you think that there is some genetic trigger that has yet to be discovered or exploited in regards to cannabis he was delusional. I will go as far to say I don't believe he has much if any field experience with neem oil or neem meal, including successful use. I called his fake interest in the phyllosphere out as well. Finally I accused but not necessarily in this order I accused him of having a perception based on what he has learned reading on canna sites without having the field experience to back it up.

No one has stated this but yourself.

I came in to share my experiences using both neem meal and neem oil, and how different applications can be applied to preserve your soil microbe balance and diversity. I used them as suggested in the forums here and through trial and error learned to use them effectively.

Mikell came in my opinion, and as he did in eagle20 thread he played devils advocate saying that he wouldn't use them out of interest for preserving leaf and flower born microbe colonies aka phyllobacteria.

Only bacteria exist on foliage?

In your opinion being the key words there.

I stated why I argued in E20 thread. There is a distinct lack of knowledge available regarding the real, not percieved or imagined, health effects of chemicals like myclobutanil.

The con side to date has only produced hydrogen cyanide as a product of combusting flower sprayed with myclobutanil, but can not come up with numbers to prove whether this amount is greater or less than the amount of hydrogen cyanide produced by combusting cannabis alone. There is a whole wack of emotional diatribe though.

I am aware of vaporizers, dabs, etc.

This vacuum of knowledge creates a situation where some choose to ignore the potential consequences. How can one fault them, when they are working from an incomplete set of facts. You and the attitude perpetuated by many (one very common among growers, especially organic) are one of the key reasons this vacuum exists.

Only when the potential side effects are understood in their entirety can we make informed choices. When one group of people makes it their personal mission to close down all discussion of conventional methods of control, we learn absolutely nothing.

As a result of that discussion, two users are paying out of pocket to determine residue from different applications. If the results are posted and not drowned out in self righteous hate, perhaps we can learn something from it.



Poor assumptions. I use neem cake and have had good result topdressing against FG. But then, of the few mixes I have made, most are already heavy in N and that was quickly dropped as a solution. I have used neem oil extensively, from the small piss ant grow I operate today to the warehouse I learned to (sort of) grow at. It's just fallen by the wayside. I don't have many pest problems and as far as a nitrogen source, I have a bag of alfalfa and another of fish bone that will take me a few years to work through.

My primary pest these days are green peach aphids. Neem gives me a kill rate of maybe 50-70 percent, so I have moved on to more potent insecticides.

Deadly shit. Peppermint oil deadly.



Your consequences have actions. Quinoia became a trend, now the people that originally subsisted on it as a food source can no longer afford to eat it.

If neem were used as often as people are told it is the only solution to their problem, I highly doubt the majority in India would be able to afford its use. It's used there because it's in abundance and cheap. Raise the price and they'll export everything.

The world is so complicated. Maybe I should just tow the party line.

 

[Mate Dave]

Neem is an ineffective pesticide hence the reason for a synthetic approach in the 'Real World.' Unfortunately there is disease and bacteria that has millions of generations of evolution between cycles of plant evolution, therefore there is a need for a solution to the problem.

Neem is a natural processed botanical repellent and cosmetic product. It's hardly something someone with google or any previous experience would use and expect results.

Cos it's ain't ever going to happen so long as I have a hole in my arse.

I think proper cultural practic will eliminate any problems before they get out of hand.

Neem is like Chemo Therapy, it's sort of ok but you know is a con..

Who's ever seen someone feel good about chemo, it won't kill you but it will make you sick..

That's what neem is like as a pesticide.. They are happy to take your money.

If they didn't want to take your money they would give you a lethal injection like we tend to do to scum we don't need such as the stuff we would be applying neem to cannabis for.

 

[Microbeman]

Scrappy you ole farmer; The only thing I'd say to that is I've gotten by fine without it so I guess I don't know what I'm missin. If I killed my nematodes, I'd be truly a broken man.

Heady; I love it. It's me. I wish I could post it right on the side of the bus.

If I had finished the bus in time I thought about doing a cross country run at the presidency.

 

[Weird]

All those studies prove next to nothing about regular applications of neem oil. Neem oil is not neem meal, neem extract is not neem oil, etc, etc.

While many have the same compounds, the concentration varies greatly. Fatty acids make up a large percent of neem oil but are only found in trace quantities in neem seed meal (I assume). Neem extracts contain much higher quantities of limonoids, with some containing over 20 compounds and others simply azadirachtin A + B.

My argument is that regular applications of neem oil probably wipe out a lot of beneficials and as we all know, pest species are the first to repopulate. You're potentially created a system dependent on regular application.


Or maybe I'm just spending all this time to stir the pot. Who knows. Ask Wierd if you want a subjective answer.




Apologies man, I just gathered you up in the ol' article refutin' storm.



No one has stated this but yourself.



Only bacteria exist on foliage?

In your opinion being the key words there.

I stated why I argued in E20 thread. There is a distinct lack of knowledge available regarding the real, not percieved or imagined, health effects of chemicals like myclobutanil.

The con side to date has only produced hydrogen cyanide as a product of combusting flower sprayed with myclobutanil, but can not come up with numbers to prove whether this amount is greater or less than the amount of hydrogen cyanide produced by combusting cannabis alone. There is a whole wack of emotional diatribe though.

I am aware of vaporizers, dabs, etc.

This vacuum of knowledge creates a situation where some choose to ignore the potential consequences. How can one fault them, when they are working from an incomplete set of facts. You and the attitude perpetuated by many (one very common among growers, especially organic) are one of the key reasons this vacuum exists.

Only when the potential side effects are understood in their entirety can we make informed choices. When one group of people makes it their personal mission to close down all discussion of conventional methods of control, we learn absolutely nothing.

As a result of that discussion, two users are paying out of pocket to determine residue from different applications. If the results are posted and not drowned out in self righteous hate, perhaps we can learn something from it.



Poor assumptions. I use neem cake and have had good result topdressing against FG. But then, of the few mixes I have made, most are already heavy in N and that was quickly dropped as a solution. I have used neem oil extensively, from the small piss ant grow I operate today to the warehouse I learned to (sort of) grow at. It's just fallen by the wayside. I don't have many pest problems and as far as a nitrogen source, I have a bag of alfalfa and another of fish bone that will take me a few years to work through.

My primary pest these days are green peach aphids. Neem gives me a kill rate of maybe 50-70 percent, so I have moved on to more potent insecticides.

Deadly shit. Peppermint oil deadly.



Your consequences have actions. Quinoia became a trend, now the people that originally subsisted on it as a food source can no longer afford to eat it.

If neem were used as often as people are told it is the only solution to their problem, I highly doubt the majority in India would be able to afford its use. It's used there because it's in abundance and cheap. Raise the price and they'll export everything.

The world is so complicated. Maybe I should just tow the party line.

Nice rant with no proof whatsoever of the dangers of neem and lack of intellect.

Azadacdrin sp* only kills sucking insects so after the oil dissipates and insects come back to roost all the helpful insects get to repopulate first because the azadacdrine is still active.

Neem is also used for human health.

and you argued against me when I said there was no need for eagle20 in the garden

now stop being a troll and show your neem oil and meal trials in the field as well as any grows with real phyllosphere considerations, without trying to justify the shit you regurgitate all distilled what you read form pot sites.

tiring and pathetic

also playing devils advocate against known safe methodology really makes your contributions dangerous fwiw all the scientific horticultural research in regards to the phyllopshere is to keep platns free of diseases like ecoli and salmonella or to deal with mold/mildew from using microbiology from rainforest studies

 

[Weird]

best part is all the people who read your posts and thought you where on to something

lmao thanks for keeping people in the dark, everyone's fuck ups are my competitive advantage

 

[leadsled]

The poor OP never returned.

Is it that hard to stay on topic?

The subject clackamas coot mix wrong ratio. That is related to neem cake in the soil.


All the battling about neem oil is not related to the posters question.

All opinions matter but jeez this is not a war or competition. Or is it?

With all due respect.

 

[Mikell]

Maybe you shouldn't post at 2AM, you seem rather blottered.

I'll deal with your rantings later when I get on a PC.


Later on.

Azadacdrin sp* only kills sucking insects so after the oil dissipates and insects come back to roost all the helpful insects get to repopulate first because the azadacdrine is still active.

Neem oil is roughly 0.3% azadirachtin. What happens to the roughly 99.5% of constituents (see: fatty acids) that make up neem oil? Assuming the other 0.2% is other active limonoids. These are rough numbers by the by.

Do fatty acids dissipate?

Are you using cold pressed neem oil or neem extracts in your garden?

Neem is also used for human health.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3841499/

and you argued against me when I said there was no need for eagle20 in the garden

You have yet to prove anything regarding toxicity of myclobutanil in regards to early growth applications (the primary focus of that discussion).

Look beyond the first ten things that pop up on Google.

No need to respond to the rest of what you posted. I see Coots old tactic of "if you can't win them with your logic, belittle them senseless" cropping up a little often in your postings. What exactly does this do for any discussion?

I know you like to throw your weight around when a discussion isn't going your way, but allow me to assuage your ego a bit. I have the utmost respect for your ability to grow organic flowers and believe you're probably outyielding most people here, which you have been at for decades. You bring a wealth of practical experience to the table and I'll be in my late forties before I could lay claim to that amount of practical knowledge.

None of these are qualifications in the field of microbiology.




Something not yet brought up.

No one here is qualified to comment, propose theories, or make claims about the effects of any product or amendment on microbiology, with the obvious exception of MM. Nothing but our own egos leads us to make such statements, myself included. At best one could provide qualitative comments, which when speaking of the microscopic is... practically non applicable.

How many have posted pictures of fuzzy mould and claimed it to be what ever inocculant they applied? How many pitch out for a microscope, only to have someone experienced explain what they're claiming are microbes in abundance is simply Brownian motion? How many grow in soil with two to three times the level of phosphorus to inhibit mycorrhizal fungi colonization, yet post glam shots of how great it's working?

One may also have noted that the only person qualified to comment on such, takes a very cautious, discriminating approach to claims made about anything and requires one prove their hypothesis with something other than their word or unrelated research articles.

I was taught very early on to question everything. When a claim is made that something only causes positives, I tend to become skeptical rather quickly. So far this has not led me wrong and so I will continue to do so.

Given the explosion and subsequent drop in prices of soil testing across the border, one would think it would be relatively easy to establish a baseline for positive/negative effects of their actions from rough CFU counts, no?

 

[moses wellfleet]

Thread of the year!

 

[trichrider]

i sense the lifting of a ban hammer...

 

[xmobotx]

The poor OP never returned.

Is it that hard to stay on topic?

The subject clackamas coot mix wrong ratio. That is related to neem cake in the soil.


All the battling about neem oil is not related to the posters question.

All opinions matter but jeez this is not a war or competition. Or is it?

With all due respect.

seems like detractors want to shoot down the living soil paradigm & recyclers more than have on-topic conversations?

 

[Mikell]

I have not made my thoughts very clear if you're refering to myself as a detractor of living soil/recycling.

That is not my intention at all. The opposite is true. If neem oil, made up mostly of fatty acids, is in fact effecting all types of organisms instead of just the pests, then it may not be suited to a living/recycled soil, except in the case of remediation of an issue, where the side effects of the medicine are less than the disease.

Or that, as we can all accept the idea that limonoids are volitile enough to leave little residue, that these compounds may prove a more targeted approach.

It would also appear counter productive if one is using beneficial nematodes and soil drenching with pure neem oil or extracts, but there doesn't appear to be enough information to call it either way (in which case, few are qualified to make these calls).


This has gone wildly off topic in two directions. Apologies to the OP. But at the same time, true to IC form


Punk kid is pretty appropriate. It was only when gaining practical employment did I stop rocking the Knox and wood glue mohawk. These days I'm not much more than the Weekend Warriors we mocked as teenagers, though I dress like a knob 7 days a week.

Given the level of emotion, I am beginning to suspect this isn't so much a debate about the potential side effects of pure neem oil, but defending ones darling.

 

[xmobotx]

sorry, that seems a little cutting now. i welcome the point/counterpoint. i guess i have some confusion relative to the variety of off-topic-ness.

not so sure the neem oil debate is entirely off-topic {except to the OP's original query precisely ~but then the query/title is misleading since the mix isn't clack's}

it would seem the neem oil debate answer is in the degree of application. where there is no rotation & neem is over-applied, your point becomes valid. where there is judicious application & rotation of IPM remedies, weird's logic becomes sound. the use of NSM vs the oil finds something of a middle-ground as well & those who use both particularly NSM in the soil & oil as foliar break away from the paradox altogether

the detracting may be limited to claims that neem products are ineffective {hint; they are anything but} again, i welcome the point/counterpoint {as healthy debate}

 

[Microbeman]

it would seem the neem oil debate answer is in the degree of application

Exactly! Use it if needed as a pesticide. Use it at moderate rates as a cake/fertilizer if needed.

 

[aridbud]

Right-o, Mikell!

Experiment with a few recipes. Those with more than 6-8 ingredients, far too much for my tastes and grow experience. Sometimes, simple is better....both aerobic/anaerobic organic.

Balanced ratios for optimum results, yes!

 

[Weird]

I have not made my thoughts very clear if you're refering to myself as a detractor of living soil/recycling.

That is not my intention at all. The opposite is true. If neem oil, made up mostly of fatty acids, is in fact effecting all types of organisms instead of just the pests, then it may not be suited to a living/recycled soil, except in the case of remediation of an issue, where the side effects of the medicine are less than the disease.

Or that, as we can all accept the idea that limonoids are volitile enough to leave little residue, that these compounds may prove a more targeted approach.

It would also appear counter productive if one is using beneficial nematodes and soil drenching with pure neem oil or extracts, but there doesn't appear to be enough information to call it either way (in which case, few are qualified to make these calls).


This has gone wildly off topic in two directions. Apologies to the OP. But at the same time, true to IC form


Punk kid is pretty appropriate. It was only when gaining practical employment did I stop rocking the Knox and wood glue mohawk. These days I'm not much more than the Weekend Warriors we mocked as teenagers, though I dress like a knob 7 days a week.

Given the level of emotion, I am beginning to suspect this isn't so much a debate about the potential side effects of pure neem oil, but defending ones darling.

try using it and turn your hypothesis into observed reality

If you need science to verify reality "(in which case, few are qualified to make these calls)." qualification can then be based on individual experiences. Works for a bunch of people who are committed to growing quality meds and use neem meal in many various forms.

You are arguing conceptually without any agenda but proving your point and your less "qualified to make these calls" by proxy.

But hey smoke more pot think cool thoughts and defend them because its groovy, enjoy.

once again relative to the thread coot mix uses neem meal, ive done my own trials, and you can use it but you dont have to if you are afraid of the microbiological ramifications, oil can accomplish the same benefit without that fear, because i tried that as well, and also the science backs me up on the efficiency of the main ingredient. azadacdrin sp*

stop fear mongering your own fantasy, you never used neem apparently

also your pyhlosphere argument fell flat.

 

[Robrites]

Please mods, kill this damn thread.

 

[Mikell]

try using it and turn your hypothesis into observed reality

If you need science to verify reality "(in which case, few are qualified to make these calls)." qualification can then be based on individual experiences. Works for a bunch of people who are committed to growing quality meds and use neem meal in many various forms.

(Quantifying postive/negative effects on microbes is beyond your experience and training, as well as my own. Individual anectdotal accounts are meaningless on the grand scale of scientific theory.)

You are arguing conceptually without any agenda but proving your point and your less "qualified to make these calls" by proxy.

But hey smoke more pot think cool thoughts and defend them because its groovy, enjoy.

once again relative to the thread coot mix uses neem meal, ive done my own trials, and you can use it but you dont have to if you are afraid of the microbiological ramifications, oil can accomplish the same benefit without that fear, because i tried that as well, and also the science backs me up on the efficiency of the main ingredient. azadacdrin sp*

(Then post the trials as well as your methodology to determine microbial populations before and after treatment with neem oil or comparisons of soils amended with and without neem. Or are you basing your hypothesis on visual observations?)

stop fear mongering your own fantasy, you never used neem apparently

also your pyhlosphere argument fell flat.

(Your opinion)

That's great. No one appears to share your opinion, least of all me

You are entitled to your own opinion of me, but any perusal of my posting history proves you quite wrong in regards to having used neem or not.



Feel free to kill the thread, though I think it beneficial not to delete it outright. It is an interesting read regardless of anything.