Clackamas Coot Mix Wrong Ratio

[Mikell]

You're focusing on a point I never made, one that is the result of your own misunderstanding.

Have you ever noticed when you put the screws to someone, their real (not assumed) personality comes out?

I liked Coots mix, which is really just an old nursery ratio and Solomon's lime formula. The only unique addition is the meal mixture. Bit heavy on N for the first round, but then I had no idea what the make up was of the local compost I used.

You thought you would end this by spamming articles? You're neck deep friendo. Breathing water like your last post isn't going to help unless you're a fish.

If no one is as smart as you and you can only discuss with those you think are on your level, you're going to look batshit talking to yourself in that box you've built.

 

[Microbeman]

The use of neem cake and neem oil, etc creates a mild dilemma for me. I confess to having used neem oil only years ago and it could have been substandard. My experience was completely negative so I avoided it since - perhaps unfairly.

I have asked for information from some of the purveyors of neem cake and associated products as to the effects on beneficial organisms but I've not noticed a response.

Perhaps KIS could submit some information to set the record straight. Since he uses and sells these products I will trust his take so long as it is substantiated.

It seems obvious that neem cake is a good source of nitrogen. In that respect one hears stories from growers who would not go without it, yet others claim it made their media too hot. Is this just a case of improper use or do batches of neem cake vary?

I hear reports that because one uses neem cake there is no concern about insect pests but the same grower is later wringing their hands over an infestation of broad mites they can't get rid of. Which is it?

I hear that neem only effects bad insects and microorganisms, yet there are papers such as one linked by Weird that show the contrary; that beneficials can be inhibited/negatively impacted on contact. This even included nematodes from what I understood. Some nematodes are remarkably beneficial.

Someone should do a careful review of studies on this matter and post a thread. Hopefully that research has already been done by KIS.

Someone should do a trial and utilize microscopy to derive some answers about using neem in cake and or oil form and post a thread. This really falls in my lap but my world is in a state of flux now as I move off my farm and I cannot set aside the time.

 

[Mikell]

We were having a great dick measuring contest until you and your damndable (not a word) logic, cool head and scientific methodology came blustering in.

Flux is a bastard eh? I can not say my own issues approach yours in magnitude, but I do try to remember (easier sometimes than others) that change for the worse is change for the better unrealized. I don't peddle in meaningless statements like the IG karma meme squad, but that one has stuck with me lately.

While I sometimes look at the new direction my life has taken as burdensome and rife with the baggage that is responsibility and commitment, I have to admit I am much more focused and driven.

 

[moses wellfleet]

You're focusing on a point I never made, one that is the result of your own misunderstanding.

Have you ever noticed when you put the screws to someone, their real (not assumed) personality comes out?

I liked Coots mix, which is really just an old nursery ratio and Solomon's lime formula. The only unique addition is the meal mixture. Bit heavy on N for the first round, but then I had no idea what the make up was of the local compost I used.

You thought you would end this by spamming articles? You're neck deep friendo. Breathing water like your last post isn't going to help unless you're a fish.

If no one is as smart as you and you can only discuss with those you think are on your level, you're going to look batshit talking to yourself in that box you've built.

Mikell what in there is rich in N? I would like to cut down on it. If you finished with the dick measuring by now?

 

[KIS]

The use of neem cake and neem oil, etc creates a mild dilemma for me. I confess to having used neem oil only years ago and it could have been substandard. My experience was completely negative so I avoided it since - perhaps unfairly.

I have asked for information from some of the purveyors of neem cake and associated products as to the effects on beneficial organisms but I've not noticed a response.

Perhaps KIS could submit some information to set the record straight. Since he uses and sells these products I will trust his take so long as it is substantiated.

It seems obvious that neem cake is a good source of nitrogen. In that respect one hears stories from growers who would not go without it, yet others claim it made their media too hot. Is this just a case of improper use or do batches of neem cake vary?

I hear reports that because one uses neem cake there is no concern about insect pests but the same grower is later wringing their hands over an infestation of broad mites they can't get rid of. Which is it?

I hear that neem only effects bad insects and microorganisms, yet there are papers such as one linked by Weird that show the contrary; that beneficials can be inhibited/negatively impacted on contact. This even included nematodes from what I understood. Some nematodes are remarkably beneficial.

Someone should do a careful review of studies on this matter and post a thread. Hopefully that research has already been done by KIS.

Someone should do a trial and utilize microscopy to derive some answers about using neem in cake and or oil form and post a thread. This really falls in my lap but my world is in a state of flux now as I move off my farm and I cannot set aside the time.

Funny how life gets in the way of research and testing and all that fun stuff...

I've heard all sorts of claims regarding neem cake and neem oil as to it being harmful or beneficial. I think it's important to differentiate between the neem cake (neem seed meal) as a soil amendment or top dressing or soil drench when solubilized VS neem oil.

Neem cake - Spurr made some claims regarding the pesticidal properties of neem breaking down when added to the soil as a soil amendment. I haven't seen the research either way on this. In the quantities we use in our soil mix, I haven't seen a noticeable decline in microbial activity under the microscope. And yes, you are picking up some slow release N. I do use it as a soil drench when combating a particular pest like fungus gnats or root aphids (limited success with aphids). I've found this to be very effective as a treatment, but could possibly kill other beneficial species so maybe best not used as a preventative. I just haven't had time to research this fully.

Neem oil - As a foliar application, neem oil is one of my favorite pesticides/fungicides. I find it is extremely effective in most instances and biodegrades quickly when exposed to light. It's non-toxic.

Neem is a holy tree in India and has a myriad of health and plant uses. Clackamas Coot has done the most reading/research out of anyone I know personally on the subject so some of it I take on his word.

This is my favorite, easy to read article, on my why neem is superior to azadirachtin alone (azamax, azatrol, etc..)

http://www.agrineem.com/PDF-Files/FUNCTIONAL BLOCKS OF NEEM OIL.pdf

 

[Weird]

You're focusing on a point I never made, one that is the result of your own misunderstanding.

Have you ever noticed when you put the screws to someone, their real (not assumed) personality comes out?

I liked Coots mix, which is really just an old nursery ratio and Solomon's lime formula. The only unique addition is the meal mixture. Bit heavy on N for the first round, but then I had no idea what the make up was of the local compost I used.

You thought you would end this by spamming articles? You're neck deep friendo. Breathing water like your last post isn't going to help unless you're a fish.

If no one is as smart as you and you can only discuss with those you think are on your level, you're going to look batshit talking to yourself in that box you've built.

your arguing the value and significance of leaf and flower surface microbial populations as a methodology of plant health.

It is a piss poor argument. Plant evolved to uptake nutrient and microbe interactions from the root for the formation of primary and secondary metabolites. The leaf interactions don't lend to superior primary or secondary metabolite production, at best they offer a inferior method of doing the same thing.

I showed papers where science observed the same.

Your hypothesizing if it is anything but share the experience you gleaned from your efforts.

If not stop crying because I think your stoned ponderings are piss poor and counter productive.

NFN I don't open my mouth about shit unless I figured out how it works in my room.

 

[RustyShcklfrd]

I personally don't like the ratio in that mix. I prefer 3.1.1

I found a similar comfort level with the coots mix With a 1.5-1.5-1, peat, perlite, compost. I couldnt ever seem to get over excess potassium issues with more compost without getting my soil tested, and effing with it, which is more work than is really needed for my situation. Once I cut back on the compost, everything straghtened out.

That said, I think the most important part of a Coots mix is the compost, and more importantly, the consistancy of the product. Its really the only variable in the mix so its important to have as close to the same product every time you mix.

I always add a bit of alfalfa and kelp, prolly 1/4 each, in with my top dressing on 15 gal containers after the first round in them.

 

[Mikell]

No, I'm arguing that a healthy population of microbes on foliage is important and that spraying neem routinely is probably counter productive to that end. If you have read what I'm saying any other way, I have failed in the delivery or you in the reception.

How is it you are not understanding this? I can not put it any simpler.

Your opinion appears to be that you can not see a direct relation between producing "fat oily nugs" (primary/secondary) and a healthy phyllosphere, and so it does not matter.

THC and weight don't seem like narrow rulers to you? What was that you were saying about stoner grower logic..

I prefer using Robertson screw heads. Beyond generally being superior, it's slightly patriotic.

Mikell what in there is rich in N? I would like to cut down on it. If you finished with the dick measuring by now?

Neem cake.

And yes I think we're done, in one sense or another.

 

[Microbeman]

Funny how life gets in the way of research and testing and all that fun stuff...

I've heard all sorts of claims regarding neem cake and neem oil as to it being harmful or beneficial. I think it's important to differentiate between the neem cake (neem seed meal) as a soil amendment or top dressing or soil drench when solubilized VS neem oil.

Neem cake - Spurr made some claims regarding the pesticidal properties of neem breaking down when added to the soil as a soil amendment. I haven't seen the research either way on this. In the quantities we use in our soil mix, I haven't seen a noticeable decline in microbial activity under the microscope. And yes, you are picking up some slow release N. I do use it as a soil drench when combating a particular pest like fungus gnats or root aphids (limited success with aphids). I've found this to be very effective as a treatment, but could possibly kill other beneficial species so maybe best not used as a preventative. I just haven't had time to research this fully.

Neem oil - As a foliar application, neem oil is one of my favorite pesticides/fungicides. I find it is extremely effective in most instances and biodegrades quickly when exposed to light. It's non-toxic.

Neem is a holy tree in India and has a myriad of health and plant uses. Clackamas Coot has done the most reading/research out of anyone I know personally on the subject so some of it I take on his word.

This is my favorite, easy to read article, on my why neem is superior to azadirachtin alone (azamax, azatrol, etc..)

http://www.agrineem.com/PDF-Files/FUNCTIONAL BLOCKS OF NEEM OIL.pdf

When you buy neem cake and neem oil are they from the same producer?

Do they provide any guidance as to effects on friendly organisms?
If so is this related to dosage?

What is the ideal way to apply neem cake to a soil mix?
To a re-amendment?

The document you linked states (seemingly) that neem acts as an
anti-fungal and anti-protozoan agent. You state that you have made microscopy observations and "haven't seen a noticeable decline in microbial activity".

Can you be more specific? e.g. did you collect data on populations of flagellates, (naked) amoebae, ciliates, fungi and bacterial feeding nematodes pre and post neem cake use? Or oil?

Did you run any of 'my test methods' on the efficacy of neem cake as a microbial foodstock?

As you know there are some who argue against things like the humic acid diminishing microbial populations in a liquid hypothesis by stating things like; 'Well I used humic acids in my ACT and still saw lots of critters wriggling around."

Some describe neem cake tea? Do you have any experience with this?
If so, how is it used? For what purpose(s)?

I don't mean to knock anecdotal reports like the one from Scrappy. These may be the most valuable. I think he stressed the nutrient factor more than the pesticide one IIRC.

It is sweeping statements which appear unsubstantiated which get to me > like that it is a killer of pests but not harmful to beneficial organisms > like the oil completely degrades when used as a foliar (is this substantiated?).

I found that it left a lot of residue but as I stated what I used (years ago) could well have been an inferior product.

 

[Weird]

No, I'm arguing that a healthy population of microbes on foliage is important and that spraying neem routinely is probably counter productive to that end. If you have read what I'm saying any other way, I have failed in the delivery or you in the reception.

How is it you are not understanding this? I can not put it any simpler.

Your so delusional you argue the same invalid point. Neem oil does not effect phyllobacteria (epiphytic bacteria) Bacillus Tquilensis, one of the very few even used in cannabis cultivation. FWIW BTI comes from the guts of caterpillars, so to have it occur naturally means you your plants have to be host to caterpillar. I posted the scientific study that tested the two, together. Too much for you to absorb?

Neem effects specific populations of pathogenic fungus and if you don't use the right concentration you will reduce the population as well as other competing microbiology but leave enough around for them and little competition from anything else to keep them from more vigorously repopulating after application.

It all comes down to proper application and understanding of what your working with. Do you really think neem seeds are so caustic that when they fall to the ground and sow the soil and germinate that they eliminate all microbiology around them? especially fungus? remember trees come from fungal dominant soil.

Common sense and any use of the product would have given you the understanding that it isn't clorox or h202, it doesn't eliminate all microbiology, its a bio-fungicide bio-pesticide with specific modes of actions.

Does it have microbial and nitrogen considerations? Yes, but if you are experienced in its proper use, they are not liabilities.

Don't feel bad, when I first used neem meal tea it fucked some shit up, and when I asked coot and those guys (the post in is a thread somewhere here) all I got was crickets.

It is ok, it is real easy to separate the wheat form the chaff when it comes to growers, breeders and the like.

Your opinion appears to be that you can not see a direct relation between producing "fat oily nugs" (primary/secondary) and a healthy phyllosphere, and so it does not matter.

OR I do see a correlation and a healthy phyllosphere in regards to cultivation does not require colonies of bacteria and fungus on the leaf to grow to full potential.

Proper temperature, humidity, light and air quality are all the phyllosphere requires to grow optimal pot.

If you are contending that a species of cannabis has a symbiotic relationship with some phyllopshere microbes that when exposed will produce better primary or secondary metabolites, I call it complete bullshit. At best phyllobacteria add value in protecting the plant from other threats at the phyllobacterial level, which are redundant or duplication of existing rhizophere interactions.

You can hate my grows but I know your not even delusional enough to say you think no one has raised a cannabis plant displaying the most optimal expression of health of both primary and secondary metabolites because there where no specific phyllosphere considerations other than the proper conditions I listed above (air, temp, rh, light)

THC and weight don't seem like narrow rulers to you? What was that you were saying about stoner grower logic..

THC? I never used that as a metric. Primary and secondary metabolites are my metric, their optimal expression my goal. Decades of growing have given me a rich basis for comparison.

I prefer using Robertson screw heads. Beyond generally being superior, it's slightly patriotic.

That is because you spend more time being a tool than a grower.

And yes I think we're done, in one sense or another.

For some reason, when you read this, I don't think it will be the end of it.

Neem: Mode of Action of Compounds Present in Extracts and Formulations of Azadirachta indica Seeds and Their Efficacy to Pests of Ornamental Plants
http://drnajmulislam.blogspot.com/2009/07/neem-mode-of-action-of-compounds.html

Effect of neem cake soil amendment on reduction of damping-off severity and population densities of plant-parasitic nematodes and soilborne plant pathogens
http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/07060660509507191

Response of neem (Azadirachta indica A. Juss) to indigenous arbuscular mycorrhizal fungi, phosphate-solubilizing and asymbiotic nitrogen-fixing bacteria under tropical nursery conditions
http://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s00374-001-0425-5

Effects of Neem Extracts on Soil Properties, Microbial Populations and Leaf Area of Fluted Pumpkin (Telfairia occidentalis)
http://www.medwelljournals.com/abstract/?doi=rjagr.2008.12.17

 

[heady blunts]

i'm over here like

 

[RustyShcklfrd]

Latrice!!! My second favorite.

 

[Microbeman]

Weird; Thanks for the resources. I downloaded the pdf on the last one and will work my way up.

The last one, if I read correctly indicated that neem eliminated soil fungi but was a preferred feedstock of several bacterial species. Despite what the researchers stated, this is not uncommon amongst pesticides and even toxic compounds.

For every substance, there is a bacterium/archaea or fungi which loves it.

 

[Weird]

Yeah and if someone in the field were to search remedies for azadachtrin + fursarium and azadachtrin + pythium they would find research pointing to remediation of one but not the other.

They can replace azadachtrin with neem meal, neem oil, scientific name for the tree, any of those sources work.

This matters because if you have low levels of pathogenic fungus in your soil, say both fusarium, pythium and other competing fungus and a good portion is eliminated then the survivors have an open invitation to have a party. Doesn't take away from its benefits, just means there has to be a sound strategy behind its use.

 

[Avenger]

http://prr.hec.gov.pk/Chapters/941-3.pdf

http://www.sustech.edu/staff_publications/20120507114834981.pdf

https://www.researchgate.net/public...E_A_NOVEL_APPROACH_FOR_SOIL_HEALTH_MANAGEMENT

http://www.cabdirect.org/abstracts/19911952312.html

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK234645/

http://www.scielo.cl/scielo.php?pid=S0718-95162015005000075&script=sci_arttext

https://www.researchgate.net/public..._wilt_Affected_Coconut_Monocropping_Ecosystem

http://www.scielo.br/scielo.php?pid=S1516-89132012000600001&script=sci_arttext

 

[xmobotx]

while i don;t need to see the citations myself, i do appreciate them

NSM has been indispensable in my garden since i saw cootz mention it. i use less & less ~which is good & it just fits

 

[KIS]

When you buy neem cake and neem oil are they from the same producer?

Do they provide any guidance as to effects on friendly organisms?
If so is this related to dosage?

What is the ideal way to apply neem cake to a soil mix?
To a re-amendment?

The document you linked states (seemingly) that neem acts as an
anti-fungal and anti-protozoan agent. You state that you have made microscopy observations and "haven't seen a noticeable decline in microbial activity".

Can you be more specific? e.g. did you collect data on populations of flagellates, (naked) amoebae, ciliates, fungi and bacterial feeding nematodes pre and post neem cake use? Or oil?

Did you run any of 'my test methods' on the efficacy of neem cake as a microbial foodstock?

As you know there are some who argue against things like the humic acid diminishing microbial populations in a liquid hypothesis by stating things like; 'Well I used humic acids in my ACT and still saw lots of critters wriggling around."

Some describe neem cake tea? Do you have any experience with this?
If so, how is it used? For what purpose(s)?

I don't mean to knock anecdotal reports like the one from Scrappy. These may be the most valuable. I think he stressed the nutrient factor more than the pesticide one IIRC.

It is sweeping statements which appear unsubstantiated which get to me > like that it is a killer of pests but not harmful to beneficial organisms > like the oil completely degrades when used as a foliar (is this substantiated?).

I found that it left a lot of residue but as I stated what I used (years ago) could well have been an inferior product.

MM, I'm going to try and answer as many of these as I can.

1. Yes, when I buy neem products they are from the same producer. I did find another producer only to find out they are both sourcing from the same supplier. Currently I'm still using the products from Ahimsa Organics neemresource.com

2. This is what they state on their website for neem cake, and I know they can't make any pesticidal claims regarding karanja due to EPA restrictions:
Ahimsa Organics Neem Cake - OMRI Listed
Aerates, Promotes Plant Resistance, Improves Soil Quality. Excellent for Vegan Organic Gardening.
Neem Cake is the residue obtained from neem seed kernels which have been crushed to extract the oil. It is an excellent Organic Soil Amendment. Neem Cake has been known to enrich the soil and protect the plant. Earthworm populations have been known to increase where Neem Cake has been applied.

Use full strength or mixed with other organic (kelp, seaweed, manure, etc.) or inorganic inputs to an extent of 10% to 15% by weight. Apply before (the area can be prepared up to a week or 10 days before planting) or during planting or for established plants around root zone. Use mixed into the soil 6-8 inches or as basal dressing. Coverage:180 to 360 lbs./acre, 1lb. for plots 100 to 160 sq.ft.

Exercise caution while using in potting mixes. Using more than 1% could cause a lack of seed germination or stunt young plants.

3. My comment regarding microscopy was in relation to our soil. I haven't noticed a decline in microbial activity when comparing soil with and without neem/karanja added. It was purely a qualitative analysis, you can derive what you will from it. I haven't tested it as a feed stock or isolated it. If I get some free time, I will add that to my list.

4. Ideal usage of neem cake would depend on the purpose of the application. Spurr has commented that the azadirachtin and other pesticidal compounds break down quickly in soil (I haven't read anything personally on the subject). I use it as a treatment for fungus gnats or other soil based pests in container media in the form of a soil drench by solubilizing the neem cake and then watering the soil. For the reasons mentioned by others, this is why I suggested this application is best used as a treatment rather than preventative. I've found it to be very effective.

A lot of my knowledge of neem has come from long conversations with Coot, who as you know as a strong foundation in Indian culture and has done more research/reading on neem and it's properties.

I'll send you some neem if you want to do the microscopy work. I've just been really busy. Hope I hit all the major points.

 

[h.h.]

I don't feel it is always a lack of magnesium but a dysfunction in the cycling of magnesium.

Try the gypsum to free your mag.

 

[h.h.]

Natural methodology are methods that work best with the same optimal environments that the plant evolved from, and the one where the microbiology really maters is the food soil web. The polysphere, not so much, my experience weights in on that one too.

For the sake of argument, you're dismissing an area of great importance.
"Not so much?"
I could say that about air, water, and really everything you're putting in your soil. I've mixed fine batches of soil simply by dumping in some of this and some of that. Intuition tells me when to stop dumping. Everything is important. It's a whole system. Anything can be overdone and abused. It's a matter of balance. Not everybody will agree with you and not everybody is wrong. In fact none of us really know anything. We're just guessing. That don't matter, we're just growing plants and we're not even doing that. They grow themselves.

 

[Mikell]

Let us see how many are relevant to the argument at hand (neem oil foliar applications).

Why does this make a difference? Neem oil is not simply made up of limonoids.

http://prr.hec.gov.pk/Chapters/941-3.pdf

Irrelevant (neem cake).

http://www.sustech.edu/staff_publications/20120507114834981.pdf

Irrelevant (neem cake).

https://www.researchgate.net/public...E_A_NOVEL_APPROACH_FOR_SOIL_HEALTH_MANAGEMENT

Irrelevant (neem cake).

http://www.cabdirect.org/abstracts/19911952312.html

Irrelevant (neem cake).

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK234645/

Relevant!

Contains a write up on effects of neem oil and extracts on beneficials at the bottom of the report, with these references.

20 Rössner and Zebitz, 1987b.

(Neem products?)

21 Saxena, 1987.

(Irrelevant, leaf extract)

22 Schmutterer and Holst, 1987.

(Irrelevant, seed extract)

23 Hoelmer et al., 1990.

(Irrelevant, seed extract)

24 Isman et al., in press.

"Laboratory and field evaluations of neem for control of aphid and lepidopteran pests"

Can't track down.

http://www.scielo.cl/scielo.php?pid=S0718-95162015005000075&script=sci_arttext

Irrelevant (neem extract).

https://www.researchgate.net/public..._wilt_Affected_Coconut_Monocropping_Ecosystem

Irrelevant (neem cake).

http://www.scielo.br/scielo.php?pid=S1516-89132012000600001&script=sci_arttext

Irrelevant (neem cake)

There is much contradiction between the studies linked above.

Damnit, called off to work. Loverly. I'll finish this later.



One sense or another, Weird. Surely I don't have to explain that as well.

Neem: Mode of Action of Compounds Present in Extracts and Formulations of Azadirachta indica Seeds and Their Efficacy to Pests of Ornamental Plants
http://drnajmulislam.blogspot.com/2009/07/neem-mode-of-action-of-compounds.html

Contains my favourite quote of this thread so far.

Blaney et al. (1990) found that salinnin and nimbin, two other compounds
present in Neem seed extracts, exhibit an entirely different mode of
action than azadirachtin. Effects which may be exhibited by one or more
compounds present in Neem seed extracts include: oviposition repellency,
egg sterility, longevity, fitness and inhibition of chitin biosynthesis
(Ascher, 1993).

But only to pest species, right?

That quote is only to be supplanted by this one.

Because the amount of azadirachtin and other
compounds present in Neem oil is often not quantified by researchers,
the long-assumed benign effects of Neem to non-target organisms listed
below may be questionable (Stark, 1992).

Basically advising to take the reports below with a grain of salt.

One of the issues with using research articles to support your own personal theories (beyond that with enough time one can support any hair brained idea with something found on Google) is that the researchers never intended to have their word to be taken as conclusive fact. Nothing is certain in science until it can be replicated again and again and again, and even then sound theories be upturned by later study.

Effect of neem cake soil amendment on reduction of damping-off severity and population densities of plant-parasitic nematodes and soilborne plant pathogens
http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/07060660509507191

Irrelevant (neem cake).

Response of neem (Azadirachta indica A. Juss) to indigenous arbuscular mycorrhizal fungi, phosphate-solubilizing and asymbiotic nitrogen-fixing bacteria under tropical nursery conditions
http://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s00374-001-0425-5

Really?

Irrelevant (neem seedlings).

Effects of Neem Extracts on Soil Properties, Microbial Populations and Leaf Area of Fluted Pumpkin (Telfairia occidentalis)
http://www.medwelljournals.com/abstract/?doi=rjagr.2008.12.17

Irrelevant (neem cake).

FWIW BTI comes from the guts of caterpillars, so to have it occur naturally means you your plants have to be host to caterpillar. I posted the scientific study that tested the two, together. Too much for you to absorb?

Somewhat incorrect. That's the thing about half remembered Wiki-facts.

Soil dwelling bacterium, that can also be found in the guts of caterpillars (guess how).

Do you really think neem seeds are so caustic that when they fall to the ground and sow the soil and germinate that they eliminate all microbiology around them? especially fungus? remember trees come from fungal dominant soil.

Nope, but I'd love for you to point out where I said that.

Don't feel bad, when I first used neem meal tea it fucked some shit up, and when I asked coot and those guys (the post in is a thread somewhere here) all I got was crickets.

It is ok, it is real easy to separate the wheat form the chaff when it comes to growers, breeders and the like.

It's ok, I don't feel bad. I do feel a bit of empathy for people who post scientific research to support their own theories, but their misunderstanding leads them to post articles that disprove or caution against making such claims.

Wheat and chaff, much like mowing down the irrelevant, off topic articles that are cluttering this thread.

Proper temperature, humidity, light and air quality are all the phyllosphere requires to grow optimal pot.

I thought only soil and roots mattered to "growin' dank nugs"?

If you are contending that a species of cannabis has a symbiotic relationship with some phyllopshere microbes that when exposed will produce better primary or secondary metabolites, I call it complete bullshit. At best phyllobacteria add value in protecting the plant from other threats at the phyllobacterial level, which are redundant or duplication of existing rhizophere interactions.

Never said such a thing.

How does powdery mildew interact in the rhizosphere?

THC? I never used that as a metric. Primary and secondary metabolites are my metric, their optimal expression my goal. Decades of growing have given me a rich basis for comparison.

How do you quantify optimum primary and secondary metabolism?

What do you think THC is but a secondary metabolite?

That is because you spend more time being a tool than a grower.

The man behind the curtain.




These articles demonstrate a good contradiction (common in these communities of mostly autodidacts, of which I am one myself [or at least call myself]).

We can take it for granted, having had it beaten into everyones head repeatedly, that pure, unadulterated neem oil is the gold standard, contains up to 25 compounds showing insecticidal/fungicidal properties and that refined neem products or extracts are the devils work. And again, many articles state that unknown compounds in pure neem oil are having a synergistic effect, giving greater result that any isolate. So explain to me why extracts are inferior to use in the garden, but perfectly fine to hold up as examples of why neem oil works? How are they even relevant to each other? One can be found in the other? Great, but in vastly different quantities, with neem oil being mostly made up of fatty acids. Surprise surprise, being an oil and all.

Which brings me to my next point.

Omega-6 Linoleic acid 6-16% Omega-9 Oleic acid 25-54% Palmitic acid Hexadecanoic acid 16-33% Stearic acid Octadecanoic acid 9-24% Omega-3 Alpha-linolenic acid ?% Palmitoleic acid 9-Hexadecenoic acid ?%
Copied from our favourite inaccurate source of information, Wikipedia. These values are guidelines at best.

How many are antibacterial, antifungal, insecticidal, blah blah blah.

Most of them. More later.