A room full of swinging dicks...

[Knotty_Budz]

It is my belief that humans are getting smarter and healthier because of it.

What makes you think humans are getting smarter and healthier? We are the only species who is actually degrading and this is whats causing all the new diseases. Humans are designed to live in an apartment and spend 10+ hours a day sitting hunched over at a computer. Humans on a whole are degrading physically from being settled down and inactive. The human body is designed to be on the move and for thousands and thousands of years humans have been hunter gathers and very rarely settled long in an single areas and if they did they had hunting parties and such that would leave to distance parts of the land to hunt and gather and then to bring the supplies back. Its only since the very recent development of the technology era in the last say even 30-40 years which is an EXTREMELY small amount of time in the history of humans and look at the detrimental effect it has had on society.

By having easy access to food and being supplemented through the government has allowed the weaker of the species to not only prosper but to breed and spread their weak genetic structure which is why we have record numbers of all different types of cancer and such. This is happening for the same reason for the cannabis sector. By breeding and selecting for positive traits you are bottle necking the genes and causing them to decline. When selective breeding like this at the same time you are selecting DOMINATE traits at the same time you are also passing multiple Recessive traits that sometimes wont show their negative effects until a big enough population is popped. While it may seem like the breeding is a success on a small level if you were to breed that same lineage out in the 10's or even 100's of thousands of plants you would start to see the difference and the reason for such a huge population needed for this is because plants are much more complex creatures than humans they contain 4 times the amount of DNA. This means negative trains can be recessive longer and when selecting for usually singular traits in the DNA like Smell or Size of the nugs which are the dominate traits you have to think of how many bad pieces of genetic code are waiting to rear its ugly head. robert clarke goes into nice depth on the subject in his Botany book you should have a look and see.

 

[Knotty_Budz]

as you can see from the discussions here, different people have different preferences for what they want to grow. some want poly's and their variation to find a keeper from, some want 'proper' F1s for their uniformity. Some people who dont have the resources/location to source clones will want S1s of those clones.

What is the problem with different growers having different preferences?
what is the problem with different breeders/chuckers making different seeds? isnt it good for the people buying the seeds to have a choice?

Thinking that your preferences for genetics are the only valid ones, and that everyone else is some kind of clown for liking or making something different is BS. No one is being forced to buy any particular types of seed... what is the problem?

Try to be tolerant of other growers' opinions and preferences, try to respect the diversity and choice that is available for you to choose from.

VG

but what happens if what we are doing is equivalent to dumping out toxic waste all over the environment becuase we had no idea what we were doing was possibly highly detrimental and 70 years down the line our kids are looking back and saying man we miss the old environment why did our elders decided to get into playing with the genetic make up altering cannabis for the rest of history.. Im sure with Meth came out all those people thought it was the best thing in the world and did it for years becuase there was no study on the long term effects of meth use and once everything was ruined and it was too late they wished they had never started in the first place?

Thats essentially what we are doing when playing with S1 or anything else that involves making a female pretend to be a male and to breed. We have no idea how (for the better just as much as the worse) breeding with the females are going to alter the DNA structure of the plant. By breeding with the female and removing the male chromosomes from the gene pool could have wonderful or horrible effects years and years down the road. There is a reason coca plant taken straight from the garden of a cocalero is brought to North America or another region and the Plant no longer produces the cocaine alkaloid, its the genetic make up and the environment that have made cannabis drug producing and both by altering its environment and its DNA could cause either us to loose the drug producing aspect or it could strengthen it. we just need to be careful becuase we have already altered its environment and to move to its DNA is begging for something to go wrong..

 

[VerdantGreen]

Knotty, i dont want to sidetrack WFF's thread too much by getting into this, but you have to understand that your concerns are a mixture of stoner logic, superstition and ignorance of how genetics work. Your meth comparison doesn't stand up to even the smallest bit of scrutiny, and coca plants are really not comparable to cannabis plants in many ways at all. (cannabis an easy to grow annual and coca plants woody shrubs that only thrive in a very unusual and specific environment in the andes)

Man has produced drug cannabis. The very reason why we have drug cannabis is because people have bred it, crossed it and improved the psycoactive qualities of it over thousands of years - Wild hemp is hardly psycoactive at all. Cannabis is a natural out-crosser, wind blown pollen. The natural state of cannabis in the wild before humans started improving it would be mostly intersex (hermaphrodite), so there would be plenty of naturally occuring S1s... in fact it is a valuable survival mechanism for the female plant to produce it's own pollen when there are no males.
Whilst it is very important to preserve the landraces and true-breeding varieties, there is nothing wrong with people making their own crosses and new strains. if they are junk then they will be unlikely to get propagated for long. These days if you gave most stoners some landrace weed to smoke they would think it was weak-ass junk. Look at how the thc % of cannabis has steadily gone up over the years and that shows you that improvements are being made. Sure potency isn't everything but it is important.

When someone crosses two varieties together, they don't discard the parents!

Think how many of the very popular clones and varieties from the last 20 years came from accidental crosses and bagseed. The Chem lines for e.g. I only have the Chem D cut but i can tell you its one of the best smokes i have ever had in 30 years of smoking, and that's why it has dominated the scene for so long... but read through the thread and others will call it over hyped junk! its all a matter of preference and i can't see why having a big choice of flavors to smoke can possibly be a bad thing. The whole planet is full of BS hype and that is unlikely to change, but that doesnt mean you wont find your holy grail amongst it, and so will others - but they are unlikely to be all the same thing.

The thing to remember about cannabis is that it is not naturally consistant. No-one grows apples from pips and no-one grows strawberries from seed. They will use a vegetatively propagated plant (a clone). If cannabis becomes widely legal then it will be mostly the fantastic clones that will get passed around rather then people wanting to grow from seed (i guess that's how it is in some places in america already... so in many ways if the clone is fire then it doesnt matter if it is true-breeding or not because most people will not be dealing with seeds.

My advice is, if there is a variety of cannabis you love or think is important... then preserve it yourself. dont expect others to do it for you.

VG

 

[Kankakee]

how do we know this plant naturally self's unless unnaturally grown indoors or taken from native ecosystem ?

our indoor growing and cloning a speck in time against annual regeneration. the b.o.e.l imported product. sativa's trigger by time not light cycles in native environments / equatorial. all these imports from india / s.w. asia do not produce the same effects once taken away from homeland. / charas

clones off annuals, bathing in chem's when passed. lost potency, degradation, duding symptoms but underlying not studied as our 30 year history up against 1,000 of years of natural regeneration.

 

[Gr33nSanta]

What makes you think humans are getting smarter and healthier? We are the only species who is actually degrading and this is whats causing all the new diseases. Humans are designed to live in an apartment and spend 10+ hours a day sitting hunched over at a computer. Humans on a whole are degrading physically from being settled down and inactive. The human body is designed to be on the move and for thousands and thousands of years humans have been hunter gathers and very rarely settled long in an single areas and if they did they had hunting parties and such that would leave to distance parts of the land to hunt and gather and then to bring the supplies back. Its only since the very recent development of the technology era in the last say even 30-40 years which is an EXTREMELY small amount of time in the history of humans and look at the detrimental effect it has had on society.

By having easy access to food and being supplemented through the government has allowed the weaker of the species to not only prosper but to breed and spread their weak genetic structure which is why we have record numbers of all different types of cancer and such. This is happening for the same reason for the cannabis sector. By breeding and selecting for positive traits you are bottle necking the genes and causing them to decline. When selective breeding like this at the same time you are selecting DOMINATE traits at the same time you are also passing multiple Recessive traits that sometimes wont show their negative effects until a big enough population is popped. While it may seem like the breeding is a success on a small level if you were to breed that same lineage out in the 10's or even 100's of thousands of plants you would start to see the difference and the reason for such a huge population needed for this is because plants are much more complex creatures than humans they contain 4 times the amount of DNA. This means negative trains can be recessive longer and when selecting for usually singular traits in the DNA like Smell or Size of the nugs which are the dominate traits you have to think of how many bad pieces of genetic code are waiting to rear its ugly head. robert clarke goes into nice depth on the subject in his Botany book you should have a look and see.

have you not been watching the olympics? anyway, it was only my opinion....

 

[VerdantGreen]

how do we know this plant naturally self's unless unnaturally grown indoors or taken from native ecosystem ?......

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0065266008601637

" ...in plants the step from dioecism to bisexuality is often a short one and in most cases, dioecism is not clear-cut. In many dioecious species , bisexual types are found in nature often with a rather high frequency. Such bisexual individuals of normally dioecious plant species are almost always fertile... "

 

[Kankakee]

..... in most cases, not clear cut, in many ....

real world transfer of s.w. asian genetics do fall off a cliff when grown elsewhere. i can just go off facts of cloning degradation and duding and nobodies clue on why. many white paper assumptions fall flat when real world boots on the ground work provides different outcomes. i'll stick with stress , unnatural stress caused by new ecosystem.

reason many indoor breed plants get ravaged by pest and disease once grown outdoors. european hemp one of many examples as performance drop's over 30% when grown in usa not even speaking toward bud rot in high humidity or black leaf spot that it has no defense against ...

luther burbank goes into much detail regarding plants genetics, evolution every generation of seed carrying these hidden inputs collected daily as it records then adapts to surroundings. the greatest breeder of our lifetimes doing testing with hundreds of thousands of species not writing white paper what if's ...

 

[oldbootz]

If you clone healthy tissue and you only clone from vigorous healthy clones then you wont have problems with your clones losing vigor. If you clone from damaged tissue or clones that have stalled you can have problems.

If you want a plant to grow well outdoors, its best if its acclimated in your area or a similar environment, and that its been selected for resistance against the plagues of your area. 99% of seeds on the market don't fit this description. But there are some that will. Its all about your requirements. Its hard to balance that with the terpine profiles or potency that you want. But often its better to have 100% of a average harvest than 15% of a harvest from a potent indoor variety grown in the wrong outdoor area and its rotted or got PM all over it. The best solution is to do the work yourself! Find a variety that you would like to grow and breed it in your area until you have a good resistant line showing the characteristics you want.

Hermaphroditism is definitely part of the natural cannabis plant. If you grow enough wild landrace type plants you will see its much more of a problem than the indoor stuff seedbanks are slinging, and that's in the natural places where the plants have acclimated, not in a different place or indoors. You get varying forms of it. Some will be full herm and show male and female parts over the whole plant right from the beginning of flowering. Some will show male and female preflowers and then only female parts all through flowering. Some females will only show male parts right at the end of flowering. Sometimes you get a plant that is female but makes a few banana here and there all through flowering and this like a full herm but just less male parts. These are the common types.

 

[WaterFarmFan]

Loving the science talk here everyone! Please continue!

The Chem lines for e.g. I only have the Chem D cut but i can tell you its one of the best smokes i have ever had in 30 years of smoking, and that's why it has dominated the scene for so long... but read through the thread and others will call it over hyped junk!

I just wanted to clarify that I was talking about Chem 91 being hype and not Chem D. Chem D is crazy thunder (an elite among any elite in the world) and the i95 F1 & F2 crosses are still some of my favorite to smoke when I need to be highly medicated. I have heard many recent stories of Chem 91 releases being subpar, so I feel confident in making that assessment.

 

[WaterFarmFan]

Buckets for the win!!!

Buckets for the win!!!

hey WFF, i think it will work fine as long as enough flowers open on your cut branches before they die/dry out, and you can collect the pollen you need.

the other way you could do it (if you need more pollen) is put the cut branches in a glass of water and stand the whole thing in the bucket (cut the branches short enough so they dont stick up above the lip of the bucket)
branches standing in water is just like a vase of flowers and the will continue to open an drop pollen.
this is often how i collect pollen myself (and is what i was suggesting earlier in the thread, maybe didnt explain it well enough) i sometimes cut the branches and discard the male. they will stay alive in the water and drop pollen for a week or two if necessary. ( you need to change the water every few days to keep it from going bad and the stems starting to rot)

VG

Thanks VG! That is how I interpreted your previous post (using a vase style in buckets), but I was a little concerned about the moisture or water getting in buckets. This might be a bit unorthodox, but I just bumped the buckets and pollen rained down from the branches. I am going to wait 1 more day and collect all pollen from buckets.

After that, I have decided to collect two additional ways to ensure that I have viable pollen. First will be a sloppy method of just banging some cut branches in the buckets to remove as much pollen and ripe sacs as possible. I will immediately collect and filter pollen from each bucket. This will likely have the most contamination, but I will keep it separate from the other collections.

Final step will be to do as VG described above and use a cup of water inside the buckets for a longer final collection. After I cut the branches for this step, I will stop all male flowering and attempt to decontaminate the room from all the pollen.

 

[WaterFarmFan]

I'm sorry for the Gu rant - but you did ask for some back story - this will be the last post concerning it. I'm actually, only making this post after having clicked the link your provided and realized what was going on.

To make things clearer for you, I was under the initial impression it was Gu that had gotten a hold of I95 some how. I don't participate in instagram, so wasn't aware of what was going on an who was involved in the I95 fiasco.

I'm really surprised that TR would let something slip on purpose. Although, there is backstory on that as well, in regards to Grindhouse Seeds, Steele Savage, and a Mob Boss breeding cut getting leaked in CO. I won't sit here and act like this is the first time it's happened...

I don't know who these IG ballers are or their significance in the cannabis circles. My thoughts and opinions on Gu and what he has done - is without exception - and therefore does apply to this other situation as well.

Everyone complains about people "hoarding" - well, this is exactly why things get hoarded. Because of shady people grasping at straws to make a dollar on the work someone else put in. And for sure, it's been going on since seeds became a business ala Nev vs Sam.

THE PROOF - it is 1000% about $$$ - This new guy stealing I95 could have just called it ANYTHING. Instead, he knew the rarity and used that developed BRAND to catapult himself into the spotlight. It is completely undignified.

I'm not attacking you personally. In no way am I offended by you or this thread. I love what you have going here. I'm just sharing the information you asked about and in doing so providing an explanation as to why I think that point of view holds relevancy.

IF this was a legal industry, producing what they did, would amount to corporate espionage and stealing trade secrets at the very least. They'd be up to their eyeballs in lawsuits. I say this, knowing $mike and TR are (were?) good friends and shared openly.

ECPC x I95 - that is really a middle finger. East Coast Panama Chunk, if I'm not mistaken was made by $mike a LONG time ago. Only shared with close, personal friends. Headstash. Why that was tagged with I95 pollen and released...it's just wrong. Betrayal, really.

That aside, if the seed to sale system has been breached, there could already be legal ramifications for this person leaking genes that were part of a medical program.



dank.Frank

You still seemed a bit miffed about this i95 business. I just checked and JJ released the exact strain (Chem D x i95) in question. So this talk about not meeting standards seems like a stretch. I am very happy to have it in my garden in a few different forms of male and female.

https://www.instagram.com/p/BcpaJF7Bq5X/?taken-by=topdawgseeds

 

[WaterFarmFan]

Here is a shot of one of the buckets after a few gentle taps on the bottom. They are definitely still in the process of drying.

 

[Shmavis]

If it were me, I would toss a few packs of silica gel desiccant into the bottom of those buckets. (I prefer wisedry)

Not familiar with the genetics being used; but very interesting thread nevertheless.

 

[WaterFarmFan]

If it were me, I would toss a few packs of silica gel desiccant into the bottom of those buckets. (I prefer wisedry)

Not familiar with the genetics being used; but very interesting thread nevertheless.

Hey Shmavis! Welcome to the party! I have had the buckets uncovered in a room with a constant humidity level of about 35%. This pollen is getting filtered tomorrow and immediately will go into paper envelopes that will be surrounded by desiccant.

As to the genetics, I tried to post photos of some of the more interesting ones, but I have a pretty good mix of breeders and each plant has something special that I am hoping to combine in some fashions that are greater or equal than the individual parts. I know that some crosses will be poor, but that is why I must grow out the offspring. I plan to only use 1/3 to 1/2 of the pollen when I hit my ~30 female keepers (from over a dozen breeders) in the coming few weeks. So, after I do enough offspring testing, if I find a few fire males, I will still have LOADS of pollen from that isolated male to bx or make new crosses if desired down the road.

 

[Mick]

What makes you think humans are getting smarter and healthier? We are the only species who is actually degrading and this is whats causing all the new diseases. Humans are designed to live in an apartment and spend 10+ hours a day sitting hunched over at a computer. Humans on a whole are degrading physically from being settled down and inactive. The human body is designed to be on the move and for thousands and thousands of years humans have been hunter gathers and very rarely settled long in an single areas and if they did they had hunting parties and such that would leave to distance parts of the land to hunt and gather and then to bring the supplies back. Its only since the very recent development of the technology era in the last say even 30-40 years which is an EXTREMELY small amount of time in the history of humans and look at the detrimental effect it has had on society.

By having easy access to food and being supplemented through the government has allowed the weaker of the species to not only prosper but to breed and spread their weak genetic structure which is why we have record numbers of all different types of cancer and such. This is happening for the same reason for the cannabis sector. By breeding and selecting for positive traits you are bottle necking the genes and causing them to decline. When selective breeding like this at the same time you are selecting DOMINATE traits at the same time you are also passing multiple Recessive traits that sometimes wont show their negative effects until a big enough population is popped. While it may seem like the breeding is a success on a small level if you were to breed that same lineage out in the 10's or even 100's of thousands of plants you would start to see the difference and the reason for such a huge population needed for this is because plants are much more complex creatures than humans they contain 4 times the amount of DNA. This means negative trains can be recessive longer and when selecting for usually singular traits in the DNA like Smell or Size of the nugs which are the dominate traits you have to think of how many bad pieces of genetic code are waiting to rear its ugly head. robert clarke goes into nice depth on the subject in his Botany book you should have a look and see.

I agree with you. While average life span globally is still increasing, except if you live in countries like Afghanistan, Iraq or Syria, America's has decreased 2 years running, bucking the trend, . The problem being that most of the world is adopting an American diet and health is failing as a result. The science is confusing, with some research saying that this is the first generation that will die before their parents and others saying we're all going to live to be a 100. When I look around and see all the fat unhealthy people, it gives me a weird feeling that something very wrong is happening. As for getting smarter, I don't see much evidence of that. From memory, our ancestors, Cro-Magnon Man, had a third bigger brain than ours, and stronger bones, teeth, etc. Imo, overall, the population has been dumbed right down. Kind of reminds me of the good folk on the space ship in Wall-E.
I wouldn't worry too much about cannabis though. After we're gone it will acclimatise to what ever environment it finds itself in.

 

[WaterFarmFan]

Pollen Time!!!

Pollen Time!!!

First collection was a success and the second is well underway. Here are a few pics of the filtered pollen. I just used some 100 micron stainless mesh over a flat strainer over a pyrex pan.

 

[~star~crash~]

how long will all the pollen store? it reminds me of fine kief ...

 

[Gr33nSanta]

how long will all the pollen store? it reminds me of fine kief ...

Looking forward to hear what others have to say. I have had mixed results with the freezer myself but it was self inflicted I think.

Best to store in multiple small packages if you plan to use more than once, the tiniest amount of condensation will kill it.

Is it not absolutely mind blowing the amount of intelligence stored in each individual pollen dot, like, think about it!!

 

[WaterFarmFan]

Looking forward to hear what others have to say. I have had mixed results with the freezer myself but it was self inflicted I think.

Best to store in multiple small packages if you plan to use more than once, the tiniest amount of condensation will kill it.

I plan to use most of this first collection on making my seeds, so it will stay in the fridge for about a month. Will be flipping all of ladies in a few days, and a plan to pollinate around day 21 flowering.

For next collections, I will put smaller quantities in multiple envelopes. These will dry with silca gel in fridge for a week and then into deep freeze for long term storage.

 

[WaterFarmFan]

Ladies and gentlemen! Boys and girls! Step right up and win a prize! That’s right folks! Just guess the number of grains in this 1.96 gram sample of Panama pollen, and you will win the biggest fucking stuffed animal in the world! Right this way, Ladies and Gentlemen, right this way! Don't be afraid to step right up!