A room full of swinging dicks...

[WaterFarmFan]

IMO: The amount of trichome density in a variety is not always good marker for high potency because the content of total active cannabinoids in each trichome can be low in certain phenotypes and varieties. This has nothing to do with terpine content.

As far as terpenes go, I think this is the most misunderstood part of cannabis and a ton more research needs to be done. I also consider understanding the importance of terpenes to be my biggest break through of this entire 18 month process.

I can only speak from my practical experience making a variety of extracts with several dozen strains, but I will stand the line on this and say with high personal certainty that the biggest difference in cannabis strains (in potency or effect) is the terpenes and other volatile organics when total cannabinoids are above a certain level. Have you every vaped pure distillate? It is flat, boring and uninteresting on every level. Why is that? Because you have removed everything that makes a strain unique. If the main differences in strains are primarily cannabinoid based, then why can you not take an extra hit from a 17% strain (versus a 25%) and get just as high? Why do some strains that have 25% cannabiniods have a weak effect versus others lesser ones? If you make distillate (pure cannabinoids) from Chem D, do you think it will remotely have any effect of the flower?

I really don't want to side track this thread, but would happily create a new one in the concentrate forum. I will just say that my breakthrough on terpenes came when I began making ethanol extract and over-purged (too much heat) a batch of Space Cake shatter. I fucking love these flowers, as it has the best cookie taste of anything I ran and more importantly a very deep strong high effect. When I dabbed the shatter, I was so unimpressed. Where did all the effect go? After months of reading and extraction experiments, I finally came to understand that I had either never extracted the terpenes in the first place or purged the terpenes along with the ethanol. Thus, terpenes are what gives a strain it's effect profile when combined with high levels of thc, cbd, cbg, cbn, ect.. I am not discounting cannabinoids in the least. They are the motor, drivetrain, frame, structure but the terpenes are the soul and feeling. A silly metaphor but...

Edit - I have purchased 15 different isolates (not strain profiles but the base terpenes themselves) from True Terpenes and been doing experiments. A bit more on some of my recent related findings - https://www.icmag.com/ic/showpost.php?p=8194706&postcount=19

 

[WaterFarmFan]

I just want to clarify that I think small differences in the ratios of the minor (non-THC) cannabinoids within strains definitely contributes to overall effect as well. This also includes clear to cloudy to amber trichomes, but I would further hypothesis that terpenes are being altered in the amber process as well. Grey Wolf posted some data showing that very tiny amounts of certain esters can have powerful effects. Perhaps these or other terpene related compounds are what cause the amber color of trichomes to change in the first place. Chemistry is very humbling, because the more you learn, the more you realize that you don't know. This is a hobby for me and I am very far from a expert, but I do love the scientific method and try to let the data speak for itself.

 

[oldbootz]

why can you not take an extra hit from a 17% strain (versus a 25%) and get just as high? Why do some strains that have 25% cannabiniods have a weak effect versus others lesser ones?

My opinion on this is that CBD and other similar cannabiniods like CBN are THC antagonists. The more CBD in a variety the less "high" i get and there is a low ceiling for the effect. Varieties like old timer haze that tests 12-16% thc can knock your socks off because it only has trace amounts of antagonist cannabiniods. You can get way more high from this kind of weed than a 25-30% thc variety with 1.5%+ CBD.

Terpines definitely count towards the effect felt. But they have not much effect on their own. Otherwise the homeopaths would have lines of people trying to get a fix lol.

Also to "couch science" this statement I would suggest giving yourself at least one week with a low or zero CBD variety and don't consume anything else. This will give your body time to get rid of excess still inside of you and give your receptors some time to re-modulate back to homeostasis and regain their sensitivity.

So we all know that thc does not much by its self (all the trials with synthetic thc proved this). But I think we still have not figured out all the interactions that come into play on the molecular cascade level that count towards the effects felt.

 

[WaterFarmFan]

My opinion on this is that CBD and other similar cannabiniods like CBN are THC antagonists. The more CBD in a variety the less "high" i get and there is a low ceiling for the effect. Varieties like old timer haze that tests 12-16% thc can knock your socks off because it only has trace amounts of antagonist cannabiniods. You can get way more high from this kind of weed than a 25-30% thc variety with 1.5%+ CBD.

Terpines definitely count towards the effect felt. But they have not much effect on their own. Otherwise the homeopaths would have lines of people trying to get a fix lol.

Also to "couch science" this statement I would suggest giving yourself at least one week with a low or zero CBD variety and don't consume anything else. This will give your body time to get rid of excess still inside of you and give your receptors some time to re-modulate back to homeostasis and regain their sensitivity.

Good stuff! I have done some experimenting with CBD ratios and extract blends, as I grew out some Med Tree Richness which is almost pure cbd. You are very right that cbd and thc have a weird love/hate relationship. There is much red meat here...

And you are also very correct that terpenes without cannabinoids do very little on their own, but in combination they really bring on the entourage effect.

I have asked this question to a few very smart people that have mentored me in the concentrate forum, but never got a satisfying answer - "Can you make a pure sativa effect in extract form by only using elements isolated from an indica without using terpenes?" This would be removing the trace antagonist elements in the lab and recombining in the exact ratio as Old Timer Haze. Again, I will say that without the same cannabinoid ratio AND terpene ratio, the soaring sativa high will not be the same. They just go together like PB&J.

 

[WaterFarmFan]

Another question that I would love an answer to is the amber trichome process of a sativa. Dubi (head breeder at Ace) recommends significant amber trichomes before harvesting some long flowering varieties. Why does amber in an Indica equal a down effect while amber in a sativa leads to soaring up one?

Some people want a 100k sports car, but I want a HPLC & GC/FID so I can answer some of these of questions myself with more certainty...

 

[oldbootz]

I have asked this question to a few very smart people that have mentored me in the concentrate forum, but never got a satisfying answer - "Can you make a pure sativa effect in extract form by only using elements isolated from an indica without using terpenes?" This would be removing the trace antagonist elements in the lab and recombining in the exact ratio as Old Timer Haze. Again, I will say that without the same cannabinoid ratio AND terpene ratio, the soaring sativa high will not be the same. They just go together like PB&J.

That's a good question. But I'm not any kind of concentrate expert either. I like myself some plain bubble hash every now and then. The old school way You would have more of an idea than me on that one. If I guessed I would assume it would take the same terps and cannabiniods to create the same effect. For example, I have had a pure sativa swazi that I was smoking that was over fed and smoke was a bit harsh but the terps were there, lemony woody oils. The high was nice and a bit trippy. Then I water cured the same bud which removes nearly all the terps. Then the high was different. Similar but different, not as nice and a bit flat.

 

[oldbootz]

I've grown a fair amount of sativa mostly africans. The best way to get rid of the heart racing, jitters, sweating effect is to let them go long and finish properly. After they finish properly (amber 20%, not many clear mostly cloudy) they give much more positive friendly vibes and the taste is much improved. Pure sativas taste only comes out properly in the last weeks.

The soaring effect I think is per variety some are not so "up" but more dreamy like and less arousal on the central nervous system - more in the brain. Not sure what causes this? Length of effect is also related to low or trace antagonist cannabiniods.

The longer the resin sits on the buds the more time its had to degrade from CBGA into all the other cannabinoids. Therefore one would assume that the longer you wait to harvest the higher the CBD content there will be, but pure sativa doesn't make much CBD usually so the small increase is not as noticeable as with indicas?

 

[WaterFarmFan]

You have likely sampled far more sativas then me. I grew Ace's Malawi (fem), Panama (reg), Zamaldelica (reg & fem), Bangi Haze (reg), Bangi x Panama (fem), Malawi x Panama (fem) & Malawi x PCK (reg). It gave me a decent variety, but I could tell huge differences between the Panama (friendly but disorienting) versus Malawis and Zamal (clean but often overpowering).

 

[VerdantGreen]

coming long nicely!

 

[WaterFarmFan]

coming long nicely!

Thanks VG! Almost finished with last collection using cut branches in water in the buckets. I really think using buckets was the best method for attempting to isolate the pollen, as I think they were very effective even when I placed the cut branches without water. Big props to you for your help throughout!

I have much better idea now on how much pollen is produced by large males, which is just an absolute fuck ton. I really get now why many growers thought this was crazy, and it is on a lot of levels, but at the end I will say that it appears to be highly effective. All of my pollen appeared well filtered and very dry.

Cross-contamination is the biggest problem, as pollen seems to float on air and dance with the slightest breeze, but I overcame the contamination in this project by careful trimming of most fan leaves prior to going into buckets and most importantly by shear volume. My bucket collections were huge, and any contamination would be dwarfed by the proper strain. I would guess all collections to be 95-99% pure.

I will continue to post details on this project as I progress. This has been a fun thread and I truly thank everyone that posted along the way. Much good knowledge has been shared on males and selections in general, and I really hope this inspires others to make as many seeds as possible. Males for the win!!!!!!!!

WFF

 

[Wendull C.]

Your thread inspired me to make my own 1200 w male room. Only one 600 on per day but i think the boys can put up with it better than my edison bill. Edison, the silent, silent partner.

 

[WaterFarmFan]

Your thread inspired me to make my own 1200 w male room. Only one 600 on per day but i think the boys can put up with it better than my edison bill. Edison, the silent, silent partner.

Nice! It makes sense, not just for the $ savings, but also because I witnessed that the males did not like as much light as their sisters. I run multiple DE HPS in open reflectors, and I saw some pollen sac bleaching at the tips, despite being 4-5 feet from lights. My ballasts are adjustable, so I turned them down to 60% towards the end of this project.

 

[WaterFarmFan]

When you do you guys like to pollinate your females for the most amount of fully ripened seeds? I planned to dust branches around day 21. Thoughts?

 

[WaterFarmFan]

I ended up getting Nylon write-on ethernet wire zip ties to label my branches.

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B017TVXB5I/

The writable area is not that big, but large enough for a numbering system like 01x14. I topped and trained all females for 8 - 12 tops (+3 feet tall before flip), so I will have roughly this number of unique crosses for each lady. I should end up with between 250-300 crosses total. Most will be unique but will include around a dozen F2s.

 

[Bobbo4200]

Wow that is amazing, don't forget to count us all in lol.

 

[Gr33nSanta]

When you do you guys like to pollinate your females for the most amount of fully ripened seeds? I planned to dust branches around day 21. Thoughts?

When I pollinate a branch, I am not trying to get a lot of seeds, only enough to chase the dragon.

What I can tell you though is that the way to get the most seeds would have to be a male pollinating your girls from the 3 rd week of flowering until 4-5 weeks before planned harvest.

If you only want to do the pollination on a given day, do it 5 weeks before you plan to harvest the crop. This is true for almost any cannabis cultivar.

4 weeks will typically give you tiger striped seeds, I find the longer you go the better.

If you are growing a girl that typically goes for 72 days, I would pollinate her at day 37 if I had to do it on a given day, however, if I was trying to maximize seed production, I would pollinate her every dayf rom day 21 to 37.

Take this with a grain of salt, I am a pollen chucker...

 

[WaterFarmFan]

When I pollinate a branch, I am not trying to get a lot of seeds, only enough to chase the dragon.

What I can tell you though is that the way to get the most seeds would have to be a male pollinating your girls from the 3 rd week of flowering until 4-5 weeks before planned harvest.

If you only want to do the pollination on a given day, do it 5 weeks before you plan to harvest the crop. This is true for almost any cannabis cultivar.

4 weeks will typically give you tiger striped seeds, I find the longer you go the better.

If you are growing a girl that typically goes for 72 days, I would pollinate her at day 37 if I had to do it on a given day, however, if I was trying to maximize seed production, I would pollinate her every dayf rom day 21 to 37.

Take this with a grain of salt, I am a pollen chucker...

Thanks Santa. I was thinking 5+ weeks to really let the seeds develop as well. The seeds are way more important to me then the flowers, but I will make extracts with the remaining material.

 

[meizzwang]

Great thread, despite being the ultimate sausage fest

 

[Wendull C.]

When you do you guys like to pollinate your females for the most amount of fully ripened seeds? I planned to dust branches around day 21. Thoughts?

Depending on maturation times, i would wait a bit for more flowers on each branch to pollinate. Day 35 maybe with my strains.

Some og chem gg4 cookies have very small flower clusters at day 21.

Now cherry pie on a 50 day flower it would work. Though going only for seeds i would let em go til they rattle in the pods or the calyxes split.

 

[Bobbo4200]

Great thread, despite being the ultimate sausage fest

Ultimate sausage fest haha lol