A room full of swinging dicks...

[WaterFarmFan]

I like your style, that is what I do, I only use males if I love their sisters. On a smaller scale, much smaller..... This is actually discouraging, realizing so so many people have more space and do much better job than I do! Oh well, like buying a lottery ticket, I might get lucky.

Thanks Santa! And PLEASE do not be discouraged. There are certainly better growers out there, but I have been doing this for many, many years. The simplest advice is give your plants love and LOTS of veg time. This project was a once in lifetime kind of thing for me, as all the variables came together to allow it.

As for space, you would be surprised at how little I had. My main flower room is ~50 sqft, and it would always have about 25 ladies in various stages. One of my tricks (to keep the most even canopy possible in main room despite flowering many strains and phenos) was to use a 4x4 stretching tent. Ladies would spend first 2-3 weeks flowering in tent under 1k HPS before going into main room with DE HPS.

Vegging was done in two stages as well. I used about 25 sqft and dozens of screw in LEDs to start seeds, early veg and most importantly to keep the shit ton of males and clones that I was accumulating. At first (6 months), I was keeping everything thinking that I would use it somehow, but after I started getting many more breeder packs of seeds, I had to start making "executive decisions", which was deciding which plants to keep or kill. Most got the later.

Final stage of vegging is done in a 5x5 tent with a 1k MH with 10K bulb. Plants are typically transplanted to final pot size (3 gallon fabric pots with 2.25 gallon of pure coco) and placed in this tent for 2-4 weeks. I like 10-12 dominant tops, so I am training during the entire vegging process, which for most plants was ~10 weeks. Lights are 24/0 the entire veg cycle.

So, all of this was done in less than ~120 sqft of lighted space in three different areas. If I had some big ass greenhouse in a legal state, then this would have been done differently, perhaps. But also perhaps, if you grow out 100s of plants simultaneously, I imagine that it would be very difficult to really discern the differences. With this project, I would have around 10-15 different female plants to sample every month, and REALLY try each one to its fullest, including making a variety of advanced extracts.

One thing I am very curious about though, someone might know the answer, say you have a super stud, you clone it, flower one clone under optimal condition, and one clone by the window seal with marginal condition, would the pollen be has good? only less of it? I guess I already know the answer to my question, but maybe I am wrong.

That is a most excellent question indeed! Off the top of my head, I would say that the pollen is exactly the same. We want trichomes from the female flowers and these undergo a very complex chemical process as the plants age. Conditions effect the plants ability to thrive and get the very most of its genetics, but the conditions do not effect the genetics themselves. With that logic, I would deduce that the genetic material in the pollen would not be altered (much) by basic differences in growing conditions. If you are talking about significant stress like major light leaks, nutrient deficiency or others, then it might be a different story. This is my 2 cents (with a lot of guesswork)...

 

[oldbootz]

To simplify: Plants and animals have DNA and mitochondria. The DNA cannot be changed by altering the living conditions of the plant or animal (although some viruses can cause actual DNA damage). But the mitochondria can and is changed by events in the plant or animals life cycle. The histones that our DNA is wrapped around becomes modulated (methylated - tighter or weaker wraps around the histone balls) according to what stresses the plant or animal encounters. (for eg. smoking in humans causes methylation).

Methylation of mitochondria does have direct genetic impact on breeding and the expressions of alleles in future generations.

So yes, flowering a male, rootbound on the window sill will probably be different than if you put that same male in the ground in the natural sun and took pollen from it then.

 

[Gr33nSanta]

To simplify: Plants and animals have DNA and mitochondria. The DNA cannot be changed by altering the living conditions of the plant or animal (although some viruses can cause actual DNA damage). But the mitochondria can and is changed by events in the plant or animals life cycle. The histones that our DNA is wrapped around becomes modulated (methylated - tighter or weaker wraps around the histone balls) according to what stresses the plant or animal encounters. (for eg. smoking in humans causes methylation).

Methylation of mitochondria does have direct genetic impact on breeding and the expressions of alleles in future generations.

So yes, flowering a male, rootbound on the window sill will probably be different than if you put that same male in the ground in the natural sun and took pollen from it then.

Thanks to both for taking the time.

I still find it discouraging, not going to stop me, I do it for myself first, but the dream of becoming a breeder,... only a dream HaHa

My only hope is working with CBD since I am already a step ahead of most people on that front.

Epigenetic would be a simple way to explain. I just do not know how fast epigenetic occurs. Most of my work has always been done with a male on the window sill. I have them in one gallon pot in the flower room until they show sex, I might leave them there for a day or 2 and then I take them in the upstairs bathroom by the window. I always get enough pollen to pollinate a few branches and most time more than I need.

The reason I asked is recently the timing was quite off, I moved a male Elfinstone (Bodhi) by the window sill, then it rained for 10 days straight and my woman and I both forgot to open up the blind on several days. Long story short, the male got a little pale and lanky but balls are slowly forming.

I just brought another male upstairs yesterday and I was debating just trashing the Elfinstone. I am still debating LOL

I forgot I had put some thoughts into this last year and came to the conclusion that my most important pollination of the year should always be orchestrated outdoor.

I made quite a lot outdoor last year but most beans were not nearly as dark and ripe as my indoor seeds. Also not as good a germination rate, but I have a few seedlings from my 2017 outdoor going right now, gonna see if I find new winners for 2018.

 

[VerdantGreen]

GS, you could try leaving the male in the flower room a little longer until the pollen sacs (and thus the pollen inside them) have formed. Then if you take out the plant you will not affect the pollen in the sacs and you can wait for them to open on the windowsill (or cut some branches like i advised WFF.

but, tbh, our understanding of epigenetics is pretty limited on the whole and you may be worried about nothing!

VG

 

[deepwaterdude]

Excellent thread and idea, WFF, one of those "sit back and read awhile" threads. Great input from everyone, learning a lot!

 

[wolfhoundaddy]

Nice effort. Thanks

 

[Kankakee]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gr33nSanta
......One thing I am very curious about though, someone might know the answer, say you have a super stud, you clone it, flower one clone under optimal condition, and one clone by the window seal with marginal condition, would the pollen be has good? only less of it? I guess I already know the answer to my question, but maybe I am wrong.......

WaterFarmFan
That is a most excellent question indeed! Off the top of my head, I would say that the pollen is exactly the same. We want trichomes from the female flowers and these undergo a very complex chemical process as the plants age. Conditions effect the plants ability to thrive and get the very most of its genetics, but the conditions do not effect the genetics themselves. With that logic, I would deduce that the genetic material in the pollen would not be altered (much) by basic differences in growing conditions. If you are talking about significant stress like major light leaks, nutrient deficiency or others, then it might be a different story. This is my 2 cents (with a lot of guesswork)...


indeed. plants are annual. plants are always evolving, always recording inputs for next generation.

growing indoors is not natural, cloning is not natural. the results from this ? duding, passing on detriments into next generation of seeds. many many possibilities when not grown under the sun, ..... disease and pest evolvolution against said stresses not happening or taking steps backward once seeded....

 

[Kankakee]

study luther burbank.

his testing and size of testing into outlier / mutants for quickening change on thousands of plants. a plant records multiple inputs always changing ....

now think about our game. imported canna annual plants (30's, 40's,50's, 60's 70's )

the cloning, growing indoors is a speck in time w/ annual plant.(80's until today ). so assumptions today after only 20 + years of this are laughable up against generation after generation of dying and regeneration the next year via new seed.

 

[WaterFarmFan]

Thanks to both for taking the time.

I still find it discouraging, not going to stop me, I do it for myself first, but the dream of becoming a breeder,... only a dream HaHa

My only hope is working with CBD since I am already a step ahead of most people on that front.

Epigenetic would be a simple way to explain. I just do not know how fast epigenetic occurs. Most of my work has always been done with a male on the window sill. I have them in one gallon pot in the flower room until they show sex, I might leave them there for a day or 2 and then I take them in the upstairs bathroom by the window. I always get enough pollen to pollinate a few branches and most time more than I need.

The reason I asked is recently the timing was quite off, I moved a male Elfinstone (Bodhi) by the window sill, then it rained for 10 days straight and my woman and I both forgot to open up the blind on several days. Long story short, the male got a little pale and lanky but balls are slowly forming.

I just brought another male upstairs yesterday and I was debating just trashing the Elfinstone. I am still debating LOL

I forgot I had put some thoughts into this last year and came to the conclusion that my most important pollination of the year should always be orchestrated outdoor.

I made quite a lot outdoor last year but most beans were not nearly as dark and ripe as my indoor seeds. Also not as good a germination rate, but I have a few seedlings from my 2017 outdoor going right now, gonna see if I find new winners for 2018.

It sounds like a few isolation chambers might be perfect for you. There are a million ways to DIY it:

https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?threadid=46076

You can give the males the respect that they deserve and get on to chasing them dreams! If something is important to you, then you simply have to do whatever it takes to make it happen (Dave Ramsey style).

 

[WaterFarmFan]

Interesting discussion on epigenetics everyone! I really did not think it was a "thing" for cannabis. Sounds like it needs a lot more study, as do most things given its illegality. For those (including me) interested in learning a bit more:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epigenetics

Epigenetics is the study of heritable changes in gene function that do not involve changes in the DNA sequence.[1] The Greek prefix epi- (ἐπι- "over, outside of, around") in epigenetics implies features that are "on top of" or "in addition to" the traditional genetic basis for inheritance.[2] Epigenetics most often denotes changes in a chromosome that affect gene activity and expression, but can also be used to describe any heritable phenotypic change that does not derive from a modification of the genome, such as prions. Such effects on cellular and physiological phenotypic traits may result from external or environmental factors, or be part of normal developmental program. The standard definition of epigenetics requires these alterations to be heritable,[3][4] either in the progeny of cells or of organisms.

The term also refers to the changes themselves: functionally relevant changes to the genome that do not involve a change in the nucleotide sequence. Examples of mechanisms that produce such changes are DNA methylation and histone modification, each of which alters how genes are expressed without altering the underlying DNA sequence. Gene expression can be controlled through the action of repressor proteins that attach to silencer regions of the DNA. These epigenetic changes may last through cell divisions for the duration of the cell's life, and may also last for multiple generations even though they do not involve changes in the underlying DNA sequence of the organism;[5] instead, non-genetic factors cause the organism's genes to behave (or "express themselves") differently.[6]

One example of an epigenetic change in eukaryotic biology is the process of cellular differentiation. During morphogenesis, totipotent stem cells become the various pluripotent cell lines of the embryo, which in turn become fully differentiated cells. In other words, as a single fertilized egg cell – the zygote – continues to divide, the resulting daughter cells change into all the different cell types in an organism, including neurons, muscle cells, epithelium, endothelium of blood vessels, etc., by activating some genes while inhibiting the expression of others.[7]

Historically, some phenomena not necessarily heritable have also been described as epigenetic. For example, the term epigenetic has been used to describe any modification of chromosomal regions, especially histone modifications, whether or not these changes are heritable or associated with a phenotype. The consensus definition now requires a trait to be heritable for it to be considered epigenetic.[4] Misuse of the scientific term by quack authors has created misinformation and controversy in the public.[8]

 

[WaterFarmFan]

As for an update on the project, I have all of my buckets, filtering screens, desiccant and other items ready to process the pollen. Tomorrow is the day. Will be following VG's advice and cutting branches, giving a quick spray with distilled water, air dry briefly with clothes hangers on wire, place branches in labeled bucket when fully dry, wait a few days for pollen sacs to open and mature, cut all pollen sacks from branches while still in bucket, carefully tap and scrap bucket to consolidate pollen and sacks, place material in filter screens over glass, open all sacks and filter pollen and finally placing pollen in labeled paper envelops for drying. Talk about a run on sentence... Haha

 

[Gr33nSanta]

I think I heard Bodhi saying how he uses construction paper to collect pollen, you can use the colors to identify the father and also the paper act as a desiccant. I have been wanting to try for a while but I am so small scale I simply need enough to fill a few q-tips.

In some ways, I am very much like my mentor Bodhi, I do not like to stay stagnant, no point making too many seeds of one cross, next thing I know I ll be making more seeds with it anyway!

 

[WaterFarmFan]

I think I heard Bodhi saying how he uses construction paper to collect pollen, you can use the colors to identify the father and also the paper act as a desiccant. I have been wanting to try for a while but I am so small scale I simply need enough to fill a few q-tips.

In some ways, I am very much like my mentor Bodhi, I do not like to stay stagnant, no point making too many seeds of one cross, next thing I know I ll be making more seeds with it anyway!

From the videos that I have seen him interviewed, Bodhi seems like a ridiculously cool dude. They are nothing a like, but I visualize Patrick Swayze in Point Break, when I here the name. The best quote that I ever heard from him was "Cannabis is the earth's wifi". It is stupid deep on so many levels...

As for his breeding, from what I understand, he takes a less science based approach and more of gut feeling when making his "Supernatural Selections". It obviously fucking works for him, and he has a team of seed producers that CONSTANTLY puts out high volumes of very high quality strains. And freebies... This cat just has an unworldly amount of good karma. Now contrast that to some of the big mouth asshats on IG, and my respect goes even deeper.

I ran 7-8 of his strains with Goji OG, Space Monkey and Space Cake being my favorites. I have two keeper females for each of those 3 strains, plus 1 SSDD. I have another dozen of his packs that I have not even touched.

 

[oldbootz]

I love bodhi he is such a cool dude and doing some amazing stuff.

But he's not a real breeder, just makes F1's and S1's 99% of the time. Although he does find some really interesting plants and he travels a lot and has a deep love for landrace, i feel the guys doing the individual line breeds from Ace seeds, those guys are doing real breeding. F3+ stuff, and its quality.

I'm a sativa lover and smoking bodhi silver mountain a couple of different phenotypes at the moment. Good stuff and great quality of high. But when I tried the Goji I was a bit disappointed. Its no where near as flavorful or strong as some of the indica cuts we have around here. Maybe it was the phenotype as I only tried one plant so far. Got a few more going into flower in the next months.

Not bashing on Bodhi, just saying what I feel.

 

[WaterFarmFan]

I have nothing but love for Bohdi. He has said that he specializes in poly-hybrid F1s, and that he likes these seeds because they offer the most genetic diversity for the grower. Most of his strains had 2-4 dominant phenos, but Goji OG, that is a different animal entirely. I grew 5 females and everyone of them was different. I kept the one that streched to almost 7 feet in 2 gallon pot with massive yields of very potent bud and a shorter one with better branching and taste. I am very interested to cross into a variety of males.

 

[oldbootz]

Yea there was a male goji that was very stretchy about 7 feet and plenty of tops 10+. We were thinking of using it to cross with some things and see how they came out, but he was culled due to being a powdery mildew magnet.

 

[WaterFarmFan]

I feel you on the PM. I saw that a bit with the Sunshine Daydream. Nice smoke but a little too weak. I kept one just to see how it crosses. My Goji seemed fairly vigorous though. Space Monkey is a bit sickly with GG4 genes, but a real stunner in final flower. Space Cake had the best all-around girl scout cookie tastes of anything I ran, but it had weaker stems. I am looking forward to crossing both my Foul Mouth and False Teeth males to the two Space Cake females.

 

[WaterFarmFan]

Speaking to the OP, Bodhi seemed to find a real gem in his Snow Lotus stud. It is certainly one (incredibly bad ass and successful commercial male) that spins mostly gold by keeping most of the mothers traits. I might find one of these types but highly doubtful. I am working under the premise that males will pass equal traits until proven otherwise by watching the progeny grow out.

 

[Gr33nSanta]

I love bodhi he is such a cool dude and doing some amazing stuff.

But he's not a real breeder, just makes F1's and S1's 99% of the time. Although he does find some really interesting plants and he travels a lot and has a deep love for landrace, i feel the guys doing the individual line breeds from Ace seeds, those guys are doing real breeding. F3+ stuff, and its quality.

I'm a sativa lover and smoking bodhi silver mountain a couple of different phenotypes at the moment. Good stuff and great quality of high. But when I tried the Goji I was a bit disappointed. Its no where near as flavorful or strong as some of the indica cuts we have around here. Maybe it was the phenotype as I only tried one plant so far. Got a few more going into flower in the next months.

Not bashing on Bodhi, just saying what I feel.

Bodhi does not do fem seeds, I remember in an interview how he says he really like natural male to female meeting for the first time. I doubt he ll convert to fem. Call it breeding, call it seed making, Bodhi has forever changed the game.

 

[Kankakee]

u can't get a F1 from crossing poly on poly hybrids.

many chuckers miss-lable seed packs regarding this. a true F1 comes from crossing 2 inbreed / stable line / unrelated lines ....