Hydrosun's Holodeck Hospital

this may be helpful...

#817

higher rh (relative humidity) means there is greater water vapor pressure exerted on the outside of the leaves. this makes it more difficult for the transpiration process to take place, as the pressure gradient that needs to be overcome to expel internal water is higher....

also, calcium, which is primarily immobile, moves w/ water in the xylem, to the tops of plants... or other portions that water goes. when the vapor pressure deficit is low (high rh), this may decrease the flow of water & thus the limited mobility of calcium...

this is why *mistress* post over/over/over to feed calcium separate. along w/ cal's desire to precipitate when mixed w/ sulfates, phosphates....

the stomata open & close a few tymes during the day. they close during the mid-day, or hottest part of the "lites on" period... to conserve water...
the graph of opening/closing is not linear, but can be manipulated by the gardener

lots of air flow help w/ water release of plant, as the vapor is carried away, by wind...

ideally, if dehumidify, the garden can release approx. 3/4 of the water provided in 24hr...
example: if feed 10 gals of water, the dehuey/ac drain should be filled to 7-8 gals in 24-36hrs... this is the garden cycling thru the water present...

when this occur, it means that there is less actual water in the nutrient solution & greater concentration of fertilizers. & higher ph... why water add-backs (ph adjusted to acid 5.0-5.5, are maybe good)....

too much c02 during the first 1-2 hrs of lites on may also delay the opening of the stomata...

stomata can also be influenced to open/close by ambient air temps, actual leaf temps & air velocity, over canopy...

plants require far more actual pure water than fertilizers - and just as much oxygen... approx. 45% water, 45% oxygen, 5% hydrogen, 5% accumulated fertilizers (3.5% npk-ca-mg-s, 1.5% micronutrients)... so, it would seem they require just as much air as water... why some planties can be over-watered...

transpiration helps trans-port some ions, keeps the plant cooler, & maintains turgor pressure... during late flower, increasing fertilizer concentration creates slightly higher water-stress (as less is available in water filled w/ dissolved solids), but creates denser fruit, w/ more dry fruit matter.

hope this helps.

dominicangreen said:

the say stomata look like pores under the leaves they close under 35% RH and over 60% so if closed its not taking up co2 or transporting water through the leaves and releasing it to the air so your source of water may not be coming from the plant if its over 60% RH and it would mean the pore are not open fully and able to air exchanges this is how the plants breath.i do think she likes 40-45% and she builds rock hard buds and more crystal production its because the stomata are wide open

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Those photos and illustrations are really cool.

But here is the real deal with the PK, and this room; photos first

Outside of HoloDeck door closed:


Inside of HoloDeck door closed:


HoloDeck door and wall thickness:


HoloDeck ceiling and walls:


Ok you can see the walls are 2x4 solid as hell construction. There is insulation in 100% of the walls and ceilings and Prodex on both sides of the walls and covering the ceiling. So the room is super sealed and insulated (Prodex is a SUPER vapor barrier). Nothing is getting in or out of that room with the door closed.

Now the situation, closed the doors at 77.3 and 35%RH (dehui NOT on). Started and set dehui to 30%, turned off the lights, and closed the door. Right now it is 81.5 degrees in there and I hope 30%. The reason I don't know is my sensor in that room is temp only (I know need to upgrade). Since this is the first night with the dehui I won't know until I open up the door.

Not really happy that the temp has moved up to 81.5, but there is the dehui, airpump, vortex fan, and wall fan in there creating heat.

Now outside the door of the HoloDeck it is 75.2 and 23%rh. So you can see it is pretty dry here. The only source of humidity in the HoloDeck are the ladies and their buckets of nutes. The ladies have been driving the RH over 75% for the first 14 days of their stay, I pray it sticks at 30% tonight, but there are 12 ladies in there now. We'll know soon enough if I am over working the dehui.

So the final result is you and I need to question what is written. This LVPK was bred in almost zero RH (Vegas) and grows great in low humidity (my expierence of the last 7 years). PK will transpire water into the air at any RH. When it is less than 10% rh out they drive their rooms up by a pretty good amount, when I seal the room they drive it over 75 no problem. When it gets humid they drive the humidity up to 100% and water starts condensing on all kinds of surfaces.

So I don't know how PK changes with RH (yet), and I don't know what the best settings to keep her at are, but I do know that she NEVER stops trying to push water through her veins. I love this lady and am glad that you are helping me learn her so much better.

*mistress* said:

ideally, if dehumidify, the garden can release approx. 3/4 of the water provided in 24hr...
example: if feed 10 gals of water, the dehuey/ac drain should be filled to 7-8 gals in 24-36hrs... this is the garden cycling thru the water present...

when this occur, it means that there is less actual water in the nutrient solution & greater concentration of fertilizers. & higher ph... why water add-backs (ph adjusted to acid 5.0-5.5, are maybe good)....

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Great post thanks! I'm taking it one paragraph at a time, but really like this part. I can track how much the ladies are fed and see how much the dehui takes out in the 12hr dark cycle.

But I can tell you that for the first 14 days they sweat out a lot of water and shot the PH down every night.

Bout time I wandered in here and put it down

On the temp sensors.... honeywell makes a unit that gives indoor/outoor temp AND indoor/outdoor RH and the kicker is you can get additional sensors and have like 6 zones on one readout. A couple of resellers are clearance them off on ebay.

That insulation is tits.... I find the supplier out my way where I can get a deal so I'm going to get some when I rebuild the sanctuary.

Everything is looking amazing, I'll be kickin it in her fo sho.

Smiley

GeorgeSmiley said:

Bout time I wandered in here and put it down

On the temp sensors.... honeywell makes a unit that gives indoor/outoor temp AND indoor/outdoor RH and the kicker is you can get additional sensors and have like 6 zones on one readout. A couple of resellers are clearance them off on ebay.

That insulation is tits.... I find the supplier out my way where I can get a deal so I'm going to get some when I rebuild the sanctuary.

Everything is looking amazing, I'll be kickin it in her fo sho.

Smiley

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The stuff is amazing. (4x175) 700sq' for $230! I don't know why anyone would ever buy Mylar or Panda!

Yeah dude, panda is what $60 my price for a roll and i used a whole roll for my room and now it needs to be replaced..... lol Would have gone that route had I known about it but I found out from you a month late.

Hydrosun said:

Great post thanks! I'm taking it one paragraph at a time, but really like this part. I can track how much the ladies are fed and see how much the dehui takes out in the 12hr dark cycle.

But I can tell you that for the first 14 days they sweat out a lot of water and shot the PH down every night.

Click to expand...

the plants dont transpire @ night ("dark", or "lites out")... but that is good tyme to check how much they transpired during the "day".

plants are adaptive. they like consistent environments. condensation on surfaces (leaf or wall) maybe not that good. mold likes that, maybe.

also, if they transpire a lot, that is water, not the entire nutrient solution they are transpiring. so, water-add-backs, or 30%-50% strength nutrient-solution add-backs may be beneficial. the graph on water consumption & nutrient consumption does not seem linear... higher temps also increase transpiration, as the plant is releasing more water trying to cool its micro-climate. this ok, as long as condensation doesnt occur & stay...

they also gro faster @ higher temps & higher rh, up to the point where disases/pests find higher rh good home...

there are charts & graphs for matching vpd w/ temps, etc... but they are only charts & graphs, not your cultivar, which has adapted to the Holodeck environemt... maybe lowering rh makes plants use more water, which may affect ph - especially in dwc. more acid ph 5.0-5.5 keeps micros in solution...

calcium moves w/ water movement up thru the plant. maybe supply same amount of cal as nitrogen. keeps the flowers healthy, as cal very immobile heavy metal, that require water movement to move inside of plant...

maybe just find rh where little-no condensation occurs, & stay there, w/ same temps, air movement, etc.... though, they do drink lots more water during wks 3-7 of flower, than @ other tymes. adjust...

approximately 75% transpires....

they tranpire ~90% of water that go into container that holds roots, but some of that held in the media, evaporates, or is held inside of the plant for turgor...

if not, then dehuey not working correctly, ac not working correctly, or planty have not enough water, or some form of ph-issue that not let plantie draw up & push out water.

when thiese occur, necrosis & spots & stunted flowering tip soon come...mostly, seems, maybe to do w/ lack of calcium, iron, manganese & boron...maybe... those needed lots, @ certain tymes, mainly in flower, to help fruit fully develop...

they can also be easily precipitated in nutrient solution, or held in solution, but not available because they are not fully dissolved @ certain ph's... so meter says 1.5 ec, but the element may not be fully avaialble to roots, due to too high ph...

hope this helps

mistress nice read..

hydrosun in the 20 gal room the RH has been impossible to bring down lower then 58% it mostly stays at 60-68% and the buds are not as rock hard and theres a different look as if its airie buds.so you are right about bud development in higher RH% the lower in the low 40's has worked best for me and at 44 days i can harvest because the rock hard nugs and crystals.i was at the beginning runing 50-55% then 3rd week of flower went to 45% - low 40's

The AC is in need of a charge (or something else, but I'm on it, she'll be charged by this time next week.).

So after twelve hours of lights off the room went from 77.x to 84.6 with 45%rh. Most rooms get cooler with lights off, but screw that the PK is showing she can handle it either way.

The dehui pulled 1gal of pure water out of the air in 12 hours (more than 10oz per plant)! I do know that the temp and RH went up while the room was sealed AND the RH of the area is well below the 45% the room had at open. This tells me that the LVPK actively transpires in the dark cycle (If I am mis-describing a known phenomenon no ignorance intended).

Now for the GREAT news. The flowers got noticibly fatter, the leaves of all plants are standing up straighter and they appear much more happy!

Hydrosun,

Nice looking setup. As far as I know transpiration at night is perfectly normal.
Looking forward to seeing these in a couple months,
HM

maybe stomata are capable of opening during night...

this may also be helpful (excerpts, in part) good research & article:

"Nighttime Stomatal Conductance and Transpiration in C3 and C4 Plants
by: M. A. Caird*, J. H. Richards, and L. A. Donovan

Incomplete stomatal closure during the night is observed in a diverse range of C3 and C4 species and can lead to substantial
nighttime transpirational water loss. Although water loss is an inevitable consequence of stomatal opening for photosynthetic carbon gain, nighttime stomatal opening is unexpected because carbon gain is not occurring and the need to cool leaves is reduced or absent.

Most species have the ability to close stomata more than is commonly observed at night, as demonstrated by reduced nighttime leaf conductance ( gnight) in response to water stress, abscisic acid (ABA), and other treatments reviewed ....

The magnitude of water loss occurring during the night depends on both (g)night and the vapor pressure difference (VPD) between leaves and the air, as well as canopy structure and atmospheric mixing.

While (g)night has been recorded at up to 90% of daytime conductance, nighttime VPD is typically much lower than daytime. Thus, nighttime transpiration rates (Enight) are typically 5% to 15% of daytime rates, although sometimes as high as 30%, based on gas exchange measurements of individual leaves, whole-plant sap flow, and field scale lysimetry.(cit.)

Although awareness of (g)night and (E)night has recently been growing, little is understood about the phenomena. In particular, the costs and benefits of high gnight and Enight remain largely unknown.

CONCLUSION
Although research dating back to the late 1800’s describes stomata of many C3 and C4 plant species as incompletely closing during the night, very little is understood about this phenomenon. We have summarized a growing body of evidence showing that gnight is regulated, in many ways similar to daytime stomatal regulation, and that nighttime stomatal opening and transpiration have implications for plant growth and physiology.

Nevertheless, more research will be necessary to fully appreciate the significance of (g)night and (E)night."

&

by K. A. Snyder J. H. Richards and L. A. Donovan:
"Substantial night-time water loss is unexpected for these C3 and C4 plants. It was predicted that the occurrence and magnitude of night-time g and E would be greater in wetter habitats than in water-limited habitats. Contrary to this initial prediction, habitat differences seemed to have little effect on the occurrence or magnitude of night-time water loss. The occurrence of night-time g and E in all surveyed C4 species was also unexpected, because evolution of the C4 photosynthetic pathway is generally thought to be a response to low atmospheric CO2 concentration, as well as an important adaptive mechanism to hot, dry climates (Waller and Lewis, 1979).

It was found that there was as much variability comparing species in the same genus, as there was when comparing across the
various habitats.

If potential changes in climate create warmer, drier conditions at night (increased VPDs) and/or reduce water
availability within the plant-rooting zone this may change the competitive abilities of species with incomplete nighttime
stomatal closure.

Hydrometeorological models based on current and future climates may need to modify
algorithms of plant water use, particularly if this phenomenon of night-time water loss is widespread in warm, dry environments, such as the warm desert, with high nighttime VPDs."

*edit*
hope it ok to post ^^^... seem planties very adaptive.

I have same experience with rh vs density/maturation/crystalproduction as DG
I usually keep 40-55% rh. This last time I waited 2 extra weeks to fire the dehuey and I think negatively affected garden. Live n learn. I will be sure to stay At or below 55% whenever poss

Either way your rockin it HS
Keep it up and great garden
BG

Thanksgiving Soon

Thanksgiving Soon

29 and 15 days.






The ladies are doing well and will make for a happy xmas. Hope all your gardens are prospering.

Hydrosun said:

I love letting the PK go untopped (in fact I often take sapper branches and lower branches for clones). The PK will shrub out very well on her own.

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Nice to hear that the LVPK will do well without topping.
I was just gifted two LVPK clones that I will growing next inmy cabinet I'm planning on LST them first, then into a SCROG.

Nice holodeck you have there. I now know where my next vaction is going to be.

what is the reflective 4'x175' roll of material called? & why no more under currents, hydrosun?

Lookin' awesome. I finally made it!

Lookin good Hydro, the new spot looks so professional. Hope ya had a nice Holiday. Take care. LadyCropSitter aka Mrs. One Love 731

It is lookin good. You the man HS. Peace, pot and karma. One Love

Days 37 and 23

Days 37 and 23

coZy said:

what is the reflective 4'x175' roll of material called? & why no more under currents, hydrosun?

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PRODEX (see post #1). I've got more flexibility with individual buckets.

ScrubNinja said:

Lookin' awesome. I finally made it!

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I wish I was sharing a bowl down under!

LadyCropSitter said:

Lookin good Hydo, the new spot looks so professional. Hope ya had a nice Holiday. Take care. LadyCropSitter aka Mrs. One Love 731

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I ate some wonderful food with friends, couldn't have tasted better

One Love 731 said:

It is lookin good. You the man HS. Peace, pot and karma. One Love

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Well maybe not the man, but happy to smell flowering PK!




First 37:


Second 23:


Out of focus but show nice color on the 37's:


Hope everyone is high and happy.