President Obama, it's very simple.

[otherwhitemeat]

Does this apply to someone who became disabled, lost everything they own, can never work again and is denied medical coverage because of a pre-existing and chronic disability?

Or did you have others in mind when you claim people are simply lazy and want something for nothing ?

Of course not, I am a pragmatist not a monster. Pre-existing condition needs to change, but do you think the lobbyists will permit that to happen? I am being cynical here, because we all need to be.

That that doesn't stop me from believing that a large portion of the uninsured are uninsured by choice. They have nice cars, but no car insurance; they have flat panel tv's but can't pay their electric bill, and they want to walk into a clinic with 3-4 kids and walk out without a bill.

The situation you describe should be covered by Medicare/Medicaid today, but this too is teetering. The Baby Boom may kill Medicare by about 2020. Reform is needed now on it. But Obama's solution is focused on driving down the payments made to providers and regulating the private insurance market. Providers that already despise Medicare payments they are getting today. Take a ride to the Doctor with an old person on Medicare and watch the way Doctors treat them. Unfortunately, I've done this more than I care to and it's the reason why I have to supervise EVERY aspect of this care for my family today.

While regulation such as the current proposal can produce short-term results it can also have a suppressive effect on the market that it is trying to impact. It will cause Doctors to look away from Medicare coverage, unless a law is enacted to ensure compliance. Then, the best Doctors will only be available to the super wealthy. I have found that the best Doctors don't take insurance at all, and their ranks are growing.

Again, I want to be clear--I'm not saying 'no regulation' but very light touches are needed and we are heading toward heavy handed. How about the no-insurance penalty, for real?

I think Obama may be missing the mark on reform by not focusing on Medicare/Medicaid reform exclusively at this time.

 

[DiscoBiscuit]

I love to see lefties get all teary eyed when someone tells them they are about to get something for free. Or even better, something that someone else who is well off, has to work very hard to provide for them.

I want to be able to buy health insurance asshole. Nobody mentioned free until your dumb ass showed up.

Y'all have as much chance of getting government sponsored healthcare as I have of growing a left foot on my head.

Seeing how you've got a foot in your mouth half the time, one growing on your head isn't much of a stretch.

Public Option is all but dead, a victim of the nature of our our Congress to get nothing done.

Does anybody see the hypocrisy?

(The rest should have been typed with all caps to reflect OWMs bulging eyes and saliva spewing snarl.)

And a victim of the people who worked very hard to subvert it so that no one messes with the status quo. Did any of you get off your asses to go to a town hall debate? I did, and they were nothing like what was depicted on the news. Today's system is not perfect, but it works for millions of hardworkng union folks, government employees, and white collar folks who are speaking out and saying: 'don't touch my insurance--it works for me'. They know the system isn't perfect, but they know when they needed a surgery, somebody paid.

When this is all over, you may have the option to buy some reduced cost, reduced feature healthcare coverage, but it will never be as good as what the middle class has access to. It will make you feel good inside to have gotten something done, but the insurance companies will be still be making bad decisions about your healthcare and now you'll be paying for it. They aren't going to give you something for free. And may even kill a few of you for profit. You'll have to deal with a mountain of bureacracy to get this coverage. And what then, when our kids find that becoming a Doctor is not the proftiable path to wealth it once was? Who will save you then? I hope you enjoy it in the short term because the lack of profitability in supporting an underclass will cause most insurance company to go bust and Doctors to start shedding services and patients. But you will have yours...for a time...until the system comes crashing down like it did in housing. And the government picks up the tab to bail it out.

The shortsightedness of the 'omma get mine' mindset is why many do not work hard enough to have their own suitable insurance in the first place. No matter, your children and their children will pay for it--born with a price on their head. Alas, we're worried about nothing: Obama is a do nothing, feel good guy, and even his own party is scattering from this mess. The law that results from this will be eviscerated and will look nothing like the book of dreams he read to you this week.

You're a class warfare idiot. What's that part about middle class? Another stupid assumption from a bigot that thinks every body else is lower on the socioeconomic totem pole. You'll have a hard time arguing that with your peers, owm. Next time you're at a dinner or gathering with lots of your self-identified middle class associates, start spewing the above 3 paragraphs and see how many folks are willing to applaud. You sound a lot like Limbaugh, Savage and all those other "keep your hands off my nickle" crowd.

If we don't get meaningful health care reform, it won't have a thing to do with town hallers like you screaming over everyone else.

OWM is still bitching "free" as if it has anything to do with the discussion. She won't listen to a word anybody else says w/o screaming "free" from the mountain top.

Her sentences consist of a noun, a verb and free.

 

[DiscoBiscuit]

Take a ride to the Doctor with an old person on Medicare and watch the way Doctors treat them.

Just another bigot assumption. I take my pops to the VA four times a year. I also take him to his primary physician covered under medicare. He's 85 years old and just beat the state record shot put by 4 feet at the Senior Games. In other words, he has great health and good health care. Just because you turn your nose up at anything that doesn't have the "uneducated other white meat seal of approval" doesn't mean the rest of us fall for that crap.

All your stuff is bigot opinion. You think you're better than others. Don't try to sound pragmatic because bigot seeps from your pours.

 

[FREEwoman]

Wow. The government and their CORRUPT regulations is EXACTLY what has caused all of our problems. Democrat/Republican- just two faces on the same coin. I am neither of those words. I am for TRUTH- not deception and pretty painted illusions. The only way WE will be free is if there is limited government and LIMITED regulations (notice how I did not say zero regulations). With a limited government that works for the people, it would be the PEOPLE who decide which regulations are fair and necessary. Right now the people don't decide sh*t. It would be foolish to think otherwise. IF we were ever able to get our criminal government (who is in bed with thieving corporations) out of here, and replace it with a small government, chosen by us and controlled by us, then all of those big bad companies and corporate thieves (who the government bails out and feeds their power) will HAVE to shape up or ship out. There are corporations that are not thieves and that are honest. However, there is no room for honesty when a corrupt government is calling the shots. At this rate, the honest corporations will soon be a thing of the past. When the people are in charge, they accept no deception (if they are educated, of course). A lying or incompetent company would not last long if it were up to the PEOPLE. Our government has been corrupt for a very long time. I just cannot fathom how so many people defend and put their trust in the government! Honesty can only prevail in a PURE capitalistic system- where a person's true worth and dignity is all that matters- and where people are free to make their own choices- and where nothing gets in the way of innovation and our creation of new technologies- and where no lying, thieving government can tell us that we cannot smoke a plant (I assume you are for that, no?) Nothing is free. Everything must be earned. The USA is f*cked up beyond belief. But it still is the only country that came close to freedom. I will fight for what is left of that freedom.

Lysol - You want regulations? You got 'em. My reply to your reply is these two videos- it takes about 10 minutes to watch parts 1 and 2. It does not matter that this guy is old and WISE, or that he speaks somewhat slowly. What he says is not a painted illusion - it is reality. And this is not simply my opinion- HISTORY and FACTS (not opinion) back up every word this man says.

I dare you to watch these videos and to tell me why what this man has said is wrong and why Odumbo's healthcare atrocity would be any better than (what the entire world believes is) the BEST MEDICAL CARE SYSTEM IN THE WORLD.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j7sQHunYdN8

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0MJsF11PsnQ&NR=1

Explain that away.

Pick up a history book. How often has socialism worked? I can save you some time - N E V E R. Yet you yearn for it. Well, don't b*tch to me when you wake up and realize you have locked your own slave chains and thrown away the key.

By the way, Atlas Shrugged is my bible. You read that book and I guarantee you will come to understand that capitalism is the only system that can work and that capitalism can never be pure as long as there is a corrupt, oversized government. I will also guarantee that, if you read Atlas Shrugged, you will never be able to think the way you currently do ever again. You will begin to see the bigger picture.

HONESTY and RESPONSIBILITY are dying in this world. They will be gone until we can get our lying f*cking government the hell out of here and have a small government that actually works for the people and is under the peoples' control. Hopefully that is still possible, but I'm not so sure since the majority of people think like YOU.

P.S. You made a comment about how the Onion is not a credible source, which I agree. But you seem to have forgotten that the media is no longer a credible source. They lie- they paint a picture of what they want you to believe. It's all shadows on the cave wall. That means that where you get your information from is not credible either. Same goes for me. This is why you have to read/learn all you can and discern for yourself. I am telling you this only because I would love for you and the rest of your kind to wake up.

 

[FREEwoman]

I want to be able to buy health insurance asshole. Nobody mentioned free until your dumb ass showed up...

You sound a lot like Limbaugh, Savage and all those other "keep your hands off my nickle" crowd.

First off, if you cannot afford health insurance, get another job. IF you can't do that, show up at any hospital in an emergency health situation and they have to treat you anyway. If you have time to sit around on icmag that means you have enough money to access the internet. If you truly are that poor- sell your computer, stop your internet service so that you can pay for healthcare. Don't just expect it.




Second off, you sound a lot like a sucker who wouldn't mind working for a paycheck only to hand half of it over to someone else who DID NOT EARN IT. If you wanna give your hard earned money away, then good for you. But don't assume that I am heartless simply because I would like to KEEP the money I WORKED for and because I don't EXPECT for wealthy people (who have worked for their wealth) to hand it over to me simply because they have it and I don't.

I am a grad student and I get straight f*cking A's.

I have a friend who is in a lot of my classes who gets straight C's because he doesn't care as much as I do. He just doesn't wanna work for those A's.

How about I give him half of my A's so we can both average out at a B?

That sound fair?

I bet it sounds ridiculous.

I bet you would never give away your A's.

That is how you sound saying irrational sh*t like this.

 

[FREEwoman]

Does this apply to someone who became disabled, lost everything they own, can never work again and is denied medical coverage because of a pre-existing and chronic disability?

Or did you have others in mind when you claim people are simply lazy and want something for nothing ?

Of course it does not apply to the VAST MINORITY of people in such a position. Most of the people benefiting from welfare and government programs do so because they are too f*cking lazy to work. They see a free ride and they take it! The problem is that people EXPECT things today. I have no problem helping people who truly cannot help themselves. But when people come to expect my help, without wanting to help themselves (when they certainly can), then I no longer offer my help willingly.

 

[BLUNToPOTomuss]

First off, if you cannot afford health insurance, get another job. IF you can't do that, show up at any hospital in an emergency health situation and they have to treat you anyway. If you have time to sit around on icmag that means you have enough money to access the internet. If you truly are that poor- sell your computer, stop your internet service so that you can pay for healthcare. Don't just expect it.




Second off, you sound a lot like a sucker who wouldn't mind working for a paycheck only to hand half of it over to someone else who DID NOT EARN IT. If you wanna give your hard earned money away, then good for you. But don't assume that I am heartless simply because I would like to KEEP the money I WORKED for and because I don't EXPECT for wealthy people (who have worked for their wealth) to hand it over to me simply because they have it and I don't.

I am a grad student and I get straight f*cking A's.

I have a friend who is in a lot of my classes who gets straight C's because he doesn't care as much as I do. He just doesn't wanna work for those A's.

How about I give him half of my A's so we can both average out at a B?

That sound fair?

I bet it sounds ridiculous.

I bet you would never give away your A's.

That is how you sound saying irrational sh*t like this.

Of course it does not apply to the VAST MINORITY of people in such a position. Most of the people benefiting from welfare and government programs do so because they are too f*cking lazy to work. They see a free ride and they take it! The problem is that people EXPECT things today. I have no problem helping people who truly cannot help themselves. But when people come to expect my help, without wanting to help themselves (when they certainly can), then I no longer offer my help willingly.

great post!

DB

"You sound a lot like Limbaugh, Savage and all those other "keep your hands off my nickle" crowd."

DAMN RIGHT!!! I want all FREELOADING, ENTITLIST BEGGER hands outta my pocket! thats MY money!

Why do you think you deserve the money I earn?

Can you not earn it yourself?

freeloading entitlement! its what has been ruining this country for decades!!!!

 

[DiscoBiscuit]

First off, if you cannot afford health insurance, get another job. IF you can't do that, show up at any hospital in an emergency health situation and they have to treat you anyway. If you have time to sit around on icmag that means you have enough money to access the internet. If you truly are that poor- sell your computer, stop your internet service so that you can pay for healthcare. Don't just expect it.




Second off, you sound a lot like a sucker who wouldn't mind working for a paycheck only to hand half of it over to someone else who DID NOT EARN IT. If you wanna give your hard earned money away, then good for you. But don't assume that I am heartless simply because I would like to KEEP the money I WORKED for and because I don't EXPECT for wealthy people (who have worked for their wealth) to hand it over to me simply because they have it and I don't.

I am a grad student and I get straight f*cking A's.

I have a friend who is in a lot of my classes who gets straight C's because he doesn't care as much as I do. He just doesn't wanna work for those A's.

How about I give him half of my A's so we can both average out at a B?

That sound fair?

I bet it sounds ridiculous.

I bet you would never give away your A's.

That is how you sound saying irrational sh*t like this.

FW, add up the salaries of your entire immediate family and I probably make more than that. Stupid generalizations and assumptions about class and income make you a bigot.

I want to buy health insurance. I don't want to go to the emergency room if it's ok with you. On second thought, I care less what you have to say because of your stupid generalizations.

If anybody is paying attention, we have a couple of bigots here that want everybody to think we're advocating 70s style, inner city poverty, welfare mother give aways.

The real issue is folks not being able to purchase health insurance through no fault of their own. I want to buy a policy just like 250 million others do every year. But the bigots try to make me sound like I want something outta their mouth. What a bunch of bull shitters.

 

[Owl Mirror]

They have nice cars, but no car insurance; they have flat panel tv's but can't pay their electric bill, and they want to walk into a clinic with 3-4 kids and walk out without a bill.

Could you please provide for me the source(s) which have formed this opinion?
If your facts are true, certainly they are based upon factual evidence.
I would like the opportunity to review this collected data.
Please provide links to this compiled data which shows precisely that which you claim.

 

[DiscoBiscuit]

OWM, you brought up the town hall thing earlier. This thread is just like a rural town hall and 3 folks are repeating free and give away as fast as their hands can type. It doesn't matter that they're wrong about their assumptions, it just matters that they make some noise and disrupt the process.

I no longer care to argue free vs something I want to buy. If the town hollers want to keep repeating themselves then so be it.

I liked one of lysol's last posts about regulation w/o a public option. It's a perfect example of bs free debate opportunity. I'd like to engage lysol and others in this kind of debate but the town hollers get more attention with the bigot bs.

Stand up and take a bow. You know who you are. Mission accomplished.

 

[Owl Mirror]

OWM, you brought up the town hall thing earlier. This thread is just like a rural town hall and 3 folks are repeating free and give away as fast as their hands can type. It doesn't matter that they're wrong about their assumptions, it just matters that they make some noise and disrupt the process.

I no longer care to argue free vs something I want to buy. If the town hollers want to keep repeating themselves then so be it.

I liked one of lysol's last posts about regulation w/o a public option. It's a perfect example of bs free debate opportunity. I'd like to engage lysol and others in this kind of debate but the town hollers get more attention with the bigot bs.

Stand up and take a bow. You know who you are. Mission accomplished.

You can always join me @ Words are my Weapon of choice, Truth is my Shield

 

[DiscoBiscuit]

Thanks, Owl Mirror. I'll check it out.

 

[otherwhitemeat]

I want to be able to buy health insurance asshole. ...dumb ass....you've got a foot in your mouth half the time, one growing on your head isn't much of a stretch.....

...Another stupid assumption from a bigot... ...You sound a lot like Limbaugh, Savage and all those other "keep your hands off my nickle" crowd.

...town hallers like you screaming over everyone else...

OWM is still bitching "free" as if it has anything to do with the discussion. She won't listen to a word anybody else says w/o screaming "free" from the mountain top.

Her sentences consist of a noun, a verb and free.

Wow! Can't have a discussion without name calling? What were you raised by wolves? So now...we don't talk to each other. You can't win an argument so you resort to ad hominem attacks and show your class with every word. IGNORED!

 

[otherwhitemeat]

Could you please provide for me the source(s) which have formed this opinion?
If your facts are true, certainly they are based upon factual evidence.
I would like the opportunity to review this collected data.
Please provide links to this compiled data which shows precisely that which you claim.

No data, just a hunch. I am not an actuary by any means, but let's look at a few numbers:

50M uninsured in US (approx.)

15M unemployed in the US (approx.)

% of employed US pop. that are making min wage >2%

% of US living below poverty level 12.5%


Let's just assume that the unemployed are also ALL uninsured (worst case scenario) That means that 35M people have jobs but carry no insurance. Why? Most here might say affordability, but if you look deeper, you'll realize that less than two percent of Americans actually make the minimum wage and even adding that to those that are under poverty level, it's 15%, so what's the excuse for the other 85%? AND most under poverty level would qualify for Medicaid.

Cheap health coverage (varies by state) is $200 per month and is tax deductible to 7.5% of Gross Income.

Now, I am not saying that ALL of these people can afford it, or that ALL of them are voluntarily living without insurance. But if you can deduct the cost of this and transfer part of it to Uncle Sam--what's not affordable for anyone that's not making minimum wage?


What I do know is that if you have a job and need insurance, there are options and ways of making things work.

 

[BLUNToPOTomuss]

DB- I give you rep for sticking to your guns and arguing your point. You give back with a smart ass "little boy" comment, ummm keep it next time I dont need it. Why go to name calling?

This "little boy" is big and trained well enough to slap the vast majority around like a red headed stepchild. (Here comes a declaration) we are on the net, so I bet you can too, right?

Your name calling is childish at best.

Unsubscribed....... PEACE!

 

[lysol]

First off, if you cannot afford health insurance, get another job.

the public option is not supposed to be free or cheaper, it is supposed to be an option for those who were turned down by private companies

 

[DiscoBiscuit]

OWM, Yeah, I get sore when a persistent few refuse to acknowledge a central point. Your discussions are too full of your own made up world to wade through. I guess your scooting because you wore out the word free.

BLUNT - Glad I got your attention because I don't like the previous jabs, whether you agree with it or not.

 

[otherwhitemeat]

By the way, Atlas Shrugged is my bible.

Great book, I wonder if any others here have read it. It changed my life as well.

 

[DiscoBiscuit]

I read it. I happen to think the entity that somehow hovers over humans and corrects their natural tendency for greed is just as make believe as religion. It doesn't matter when it's only a minority of greedsters when the minority is powerful enough to sink Main St.

While you're reading Rand, you might be interested in the history of Wall Street booms and busts. It's called "The Great American Bubble Machine."

Capitalists, elected officials and regular citizens have one thing in common. They're people. There are good and bad. We'll be rooting the bad ones out for the rest of our lives. That is not enough to make me subscribe to a philosophy that doesn't exist.

Alan Greenspan is/was Ayn Rand's biggest cheerleader. Since the housing bust, Greenspan has lamented the fictional market controls as no defense of human greed. It's sad to see an old man realize he's looking at the real world for the first time.

 

[ItsAllOver]

Hey sweethearts, I hope the discussion in here is going well and civilly.

But I just wanted to chime in with a link to an interesting podcast that I listened to today (because I think you're all just a bunch of scatterbrained potheads Joke.) about our topic of discussion in here:
http://www.econtalk.org/archives/2007/11/arnold_kling_on.html
I figured some one would be interested in it.
I also highly suggest that you peruse the categorically archived podcasts on this site. Even if you don't give a shit about the health care debate, which I doubt, you'll find something here that interests you.
It brings up empirical evidence about the possible impacts of single payer, and discusses the best way that we might solve this problem.
Their conclusion, which I post here only to show that it is not slanted and will hopefully draw more listeners, is to experiment with the health care issue by allowing the states to try it in different ways (IMO the constitutional way) as voted by the constituents or legislators in the states, learning and drawing conclusions about the efficacy of the different systems over time.
The truth is, none of us here is doing much more than speculating on whatever conclusion we've come to, because it's not like we have much real, concrete empirical evidence on this topic. We might never, because it's a complicated subject.
The honest truth, however, is that we surely have better health care now than we have ever in the past. But as will always be true for the rest of time, there is surely room for incremental improvement. (unless you believe in utopia and you're an idiot)

Peace out folks

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