President Obama, it's very simple.

[kmk420kali]

i really dont think we need the gov to run are medical care,

Uhh...but they already are, for you--

now to get any other help, i needed to fill out paper work that would gag a horse, even a humanitary app for the VA which was approved. i have indigent card now, which actually is a type of insurance, as i went to get a 3 month follow up cat scan, which all is good, and they accepted the card and all i had to pay was 15 bucks for a 3k procedure.

This is one of the problems...when ppl don't have insurance, the hospitals have to eat costs, driving prices even higher...and that card you have....comes straight from taxes--
I'm not saying I agree with the current plan, cuz I don't...but yeah, things are fucked up...hope they find a reasonable solution--
Peace--

 

[otherwhitemeat]

Yes, 100% of the unemployed simply choose to be unemployed

That is my contention, yes.

The public option is not a free option, its not raising taxes. If you don't like taxes you should be arguing our disproportional defense expenditure. It cost us more to kill 6 million Iraqis then it would have to save 6 million Americans.

I am not talking about the wars, but now that you mention it...they should end if we are going to pay for this. You guys are very cynical of corporations and of insurance companies. Do you REALLY think they are going to go for Public Option and not be able to pass on the costs? Public Option will be a loss for years to provide insurance to those without coverage. They are either going to raise taxes or riase premiums to pay for it. If you are not looking that far ahead, you may be missing something.


Cash for clunkers (failure, ran out of money too quickly to be of use)
Laws for handicap access to buildings (Do YOU run a small business? Obviously not. If you did, you might hear a few horror stories of this policy gone awry. I know two business owners in my town that couldn't afford to come into compliance, got sued and are now out of business. Fair?
parking enforcement (so...you LIKE parking enforcement? it's just an excuse to pilfer money from visitors)
fire departments (The best ones in suburbran areas are volunteer. Ever had an ambulance ride in a city?)
post office (Really? When you absolutely, positively have to get something there over night, you use the Post Office? I don't and nor do 95% of American businesses. Ask ANYONE that works for the post office if they are happy with their employer)
tax collection (c'mon...how many American cheat the tax system? AMT? You really think this is an example?)



Our government may be good at a few things, but BIG government is bad at all things.

if private insurance is so good how come my insurance company calls me 2x a month asking me to switch to their services ( when im already a customer ), their efforts are really coordinated right? I ask them to take me off their list everytime and still I keep getting calls. That's what happens when you let profit be a sole motivator. If profit was a sole motivator it'd just be another tax, aka they would not provide a service in exchange, but luckily we have some regulations like HIPAA they have to follow.

I never said the current system was good or perfect. It just works for me. My company offers three different insurers; I have choices. I get great care. If y'all can be selfish and say that you don't care if my taxes go up or my cost of care goes up---am I not permitted the same luxury?

The Office for Civil Rights enforces the HIPAA Privacy Rule, which protects the privacy of individually identifiable health information, and the confidentiality provisions of the Patient Safety Rule, which protect identifiable information being used to analyze patient safety events and improve patient safety. "

HIPAA, another REALLY bad example. The protections it affords are minimal, the cost of compliance--extraordinary. I used to sell HIPAA compliance solutions. Most Health Care is NOT in compliance, enforcement is weak or non-existent. You really feel protected by HIPAA?

Hey asshole, my uncle worked for his own company for 50yrs and bought health care for both of his daughters, when she got cancer the out of pocket bills were going to be in the MILLIONs, he worked his whole life to purchase insurance and they tried to kill her. Fucking kill her.

Ok, keep it classy. You have one freebie, after that I will ignore you. Show everyone here you are better than that, you can do better! Yes, you can! DB is putting words in people's mouths, arguing about religion, and prejudging my politics based on my position on ONE TOPIC. That is ignorant. I stated an opinion: he's not that bright. While we can argue this all day. My opinion, which I am entitled to.... Sorry about what happened with your Uncle, but anecdotal stories don't do much more than cloud the argument. My Dad was killed by a Doctor, am I out here bashing Doctors?

I suppose you would like the government to stop regulating ATT, stop regulating your power company huh? The power company worked oh so hard to put up those power lines now they should be allowed to go around price gouging hospitals and schools?

Limited regulation is OK, if it works. I am more in favor competition. Two power companies, two cable companies==competitive prices. Public Option may work if it embraces compeition. Don't put words in my mouth. Regulation, more often than not, misses the mark. We shouldn't be putting all of our faith in Obama, he's not a king and can no sonner do the things he said last night than I can. Congress is King, they will decide; what comes out of committee will look NOTHING like what Obama promised last night. If you think otherwise, you should refer to your high school civics textbooks.

If we just let profit rule all, everyone would be using AT&T, paying $5 a minute, they would own all the phone lines so there would be no competition.

Are you starting to see what I am arguing? I am not trying to take away your free market. I am saying the government should not give a corporate entity more rights then a human being. If the corporations profits are being made at the sacrifice of human life, we need REGULATION. A public option is merely one component of a possible regulation.

Limited regulation? Agreed. Total regulation? That just will never happen. Get used to it.

Other regulations include

limits on out of pocket expenses
limits on them dropping coverage
etc...

Do you support these?

Partially. Let me ask you this, when the limits runs out; the regulation kicks in. Who pays for that? We do. Public Option will just pass the costs along, insurance companies won't pick up the tab any more than poor people will.

After you took the time to learn a skill, learn to write a resume, do all these interviews, and get a job with bennies, don't you at least want some assurance that the insurance you purchased is backed by someone other than the 19yr old kid down the block who decided to start his own company?

Let me be clear. Large corporations suck. I work for one of the largest in the country. They suck. But they pay my bills and provide me with coverage. The social contract is intact. How many 19 year old kids you know running insurance companies? When the public option comes to fruition, might there be just a few more fly-by-night outfits?

I am not really debating the concept of more regulation...I guess my argument could be best summed up in this way: be careful what you ask for, you may just get it.


"The inherent vice of capitalism is the unequal sharing of blessings; the inherent virtue of socialism is the equal sharing of miseries."
Winston Churchill

 

[SDOG]

I'm glad it is not included. I would hate for MJ to be used to further Obama's misguided ambitions.

Agreed op is a sheeple.

 

[otherwhitemeat]

I can provide several:

The government regulates the fire suppression organizations which saved my friend's home in the foothills of the Verdugo Mountains outside Los Angeles last week. The same government provided a shelter for displaced people (and animals) until it was safe for them to return. The government will provide funds for the State of California to regroup its firefighting apparatus afterwards.

Ah, the government provides. Just sit back and wait for your savior, right? Hurricane Katrina? How'd that work out? Great when you are sitting in the wealthy foothills of CA, but firemen risking their lives to save homes any where else? Regulations led to poor fire suppression techniques in the first place. Glad they saved your home in the foothills, I wonder how much life was risked, and how much taxes went toward those savings, so you could plop your ass down with a nice view? Life should never be risked to save property, you're insured.

When my grandparents were young people living in New England, it was customary for multiple fire "companies" to operate in an area. People were expected to pay a tribute to them in exchange for a "seal" they could post on their front door. If a company showed-up to fight your kitchen fire, but you paid for a seal from a competing company, they could--and often would--leave your house to burn down. The government put an end to this sort of nonsense.

Yeah, I saw the documentary too. Only operated like that in crooked cities like Chicago and New York. The rest of the country had volunteers, without regulation. Worked very well when my house caught fire. There are alternatives and regulatiuons didn't change this, people did, people with lawsuits.

The government regulates the schools where my niece and nephews go to learn things--for free. The government provided me with grant and loan assistance to go to a university. Without that, I may have never been able to have a job with benefits. It also paid to build and run that university.

I had loans too from the government, but wasn't poor enough to have more. Result: I had to work two jobs to finish college. Sometimes, I wish I was poorer. Please tell me that you didn't just use grade schools as example? Oh, hell no. Schools and school districts are VERY corrupt where I live. In NYC alone, it's estimated that 20% of the costs go to grift. Where's your all saving regulation now? My state has 35 school districts that HAVE NO SCHOOLS in them and we have rampant taxes. My state taxes are the highest in the nation and our school systems are the problem. You want to talk bout overhaul, our school system needs it. While we're at, we pay the MOST of any industrialized nation for schooling and have the highest dropout rates. Successful? Oh dear...

The government makes it illegal for the people who fly the planes in which I travel to be drunk, or otherwise intoxicated while operating the plane. They also have to be fit, and have good eyesight. The government also does its best to regulate the safety protocols of those planes. Not to mention school bus drivers, train operators, etc..

And yet, people still drive drunk, fly planes drunk, and drive your kids to school--while drunk. Anyone can make a law, it take a lot to enforce them. Specifically, the FAA is your example? Outdated and antiquated technology from the 50's; air routes based on old models that become a model of inefficiency. Regulations? Like what? Making my seat comfortable? Now THAT's change I can believe in!

Lastly, the government funded, and provided the facilitation for the very technology which I am currently using to converse with all of you. The internet would have taken a lot longer to create if it weren't for government action. ..

And yet, we didn;'t have the wonders of internet porn and icmag until the private enteprise figured out what to do with it. It wasn't regulation that created the internet, it was military spending. The internet languished for 10 years until universities and private enteprise figured out how to use it. It is largely unregulated and managed by private enterprise.

It is simply wrong that the government does nothing better than a free market. Free markets see elderly people dying in their overheated homes because Enron executives thought it was okay to black-out Southern California to save a buck. Regulation is a must--human nature demands it. If you don't agree, then you aren't familiar with history.

Anecdotal stories of how it benefits YOU don't matter, how do these things benefit mankind as a whole? Did regulation of the industry save you from Enron? Does FDA regulation protect you and your kids from Chinese goods? Does the CDC protect you from swine flu? Fact is, Public Option is the only way Obama will get the GOP to buy in to the plan, by allowing insurance companies to compete for all those new bodies. Single Payer option is more akin to socialism, but the Public Option is a transitional period to single payer. Just like regulation (or lack thereof) caused the mortgage metldown; we'll gave a government bailout of Social Security, Medicare...and this mess in 10 years., Whos' going to pay for it? Every single one of us. Enjoy the new taxes!

 

[TheBudFather]

i dont understand why you cant have a National Health System set up like in England... all hospital treatment is free... payed by taxpayers.... if someone was dying in a hospital ward, with no money for treatment... to leave them suffer and die because of a money factor should be against human rights... for a Dr to walk past and not care (only for money) is pure evil... EVERY SICK PERSON should be treated... When will America start treating ALL people equally?.... they seem to only want to look after the rich... even tho some of Americas greatest personalities come from poor backgrounds. America needs to spend on its Healthcare instead of TRILLIONS on Missiles and killing sprees. im pretty sure that all this could have been sorted by now... I think they want illness to control the population numbers by killing off all the poor...

 

[DiscoBiscuit]

Beyond the right wing nutjobs screaming about death panels, there's a quiet majority of people like me---firmly middle class, that have no intent of allowing this to happen.

You make the deathers look tame.

If Obama pinches your nickel too hard...you'll scream. I can see it now at town halls and tea bag parties, deathers and screamers.

quiet majority - is that like the silent majority? Seems those folks weren't a majority and they weren't too silent.

 

[lysol]

That is my contention, yes.

So when the economy goes down the unemployment rate goes up because people CHOOSE to stop looking for jobs in a down economy?



Do you REALLY think they are going to go for Public Option and not be able to pass on the costs? Public Option will be a loss for years to provide insurance to those without coverage. They are either going to raise taxes or riase premiums to pay for it. If you are not looking that far ahead, you may be missing something.

But the public option will not affect the cost of your private option other then to bring it down, due to increased competition.


Cash for clunkers (failure, ran out of money too quickly to be of use)
Wrong, was a huge success. Stimulated the economy by increasing revenues for dealerships, created jobs in car factories to create new cars. We didn't run out of money the idiots in charge decided to allocate it to something that benefited them instead of the public.

Laws for handicap access to buildings (Do YOU run a small business? Obviously not. If you did, you might hear a few horror stories of this policy gone awry.

Actually, yes I do. I have run businesses out of apartments, warehouses and offices

I know two business owners in my town that couldn't afford to come into compliance, got sued and are now out of business. Fair?

Well, using an argument you used but in a different context, maybe those business owners did not provide a unique enough of a service to stay funded. "fair"? maybe not to the business owner but is it "fair" that a handicap person can't get an equal opportunity to benefit from the business' services. and according to my understanding of http://www.access-board.gov/adaag/html/adaag.htm#purpose it only applies to new construction

parking enforcement (so...you LIKE parking enforcement? it's just an excuse to pilfer money from visitors)
I like not having my roads blocked...


fire departments (The best ones in suburbran areas are volunteer. Ever had an ambulance ride in a city?)
And if they were short on volunteers that day the library just burns down?

post office (Really? When you absolutely, positively have to get something there over night, you use the Post Office? I don't and nor do 95% of American businesses.
I do, it is cheaper and they offer the same services, 95% of statistics are made up.

Ask ANYONE that works for the post office if they are happy with their employer)
Yep, know a deaf guy that can't get a job anywhere else, I guess hes better off contributing to the unemployment rate right?


Our government may be good at a few things, but BIG government is bad at all things.

Generalization

I never said the current system was good or perfect. It just works for me.
That's the "screw you I've got a row boat so you can swim" argument

My company offers three different insurers; I have choices. I get great care. If y'all can be selfish and say that you don't care if my taxes go up or my cost of care goes up---am I not permitted the same luxury?
I'm confused? What does this have to do with taxes again?


HIPAA, another REALLY bad example. The protections it affords are minimal, the cost of compliance--extraordinary. I used to sell HIPAA compliance solutions. Most Health Care is NOT in compliance, enforcement is weak or non-existent. You really feel protected by HIPAA?
Change does not happen overnight, some regulation is better than none, as long as people keep opposing regulation, regulation will be weak and ineffective.


.. Sorry about what happened with your Uncle, but anecdotal stories don't do much more than cloud the argument. My Dad was killed by a Doctor, am I out here bashing Doctors?
No but you are using the same fallacies to try to argue that since medicare was bad for a few people that it is bad for all people

Limited regulation is OK, if it works. I am more in favor competition.
That would be nice but every time we try that out in any industry the government has to keep breaking up monopolies ( operating systems, utilities such as telecommunications, water, sewer, power ). We're not talking about an economy here though either were talking about human life. that if we save that life could grow up to invent new things to further stimulate the economy and compete in the market place. But I guess when Stephen Hawking or other influential minds was young we would not have saved him if he lived over here?

Two power companies, two cable companies==competitive prices.
Where I live there is only 1 power company available, they own all the power lines and you have no choice. When 10 companies get bought out by 4 companies, which gets bought out by 1 big company, over and over, competition works against itself, free competition allows a diversity of companies to compete but it is a contradiction in itself because it also allows for monopolies which is the opposite

Public Option may work if it embraces compeition.
Right, and if it doesnt work, you just switch plans, which is what the bill proposes.

Don't put words in my mouth. Regulation, more often than not, misses the mark. We shouldn't be putting all of our faith in Obama, he's not a king and can no sonner do the things he said last night than I can. Congress is King, they will decide; what comes out of committee will look NOTHING like what Obama promised last night. If you think otherwise, you should refer to your high school civics textbooks.
I agree, there is no perfect answer, which is why we should take small steps. The bills get modified by the commities due to the amount of controversy spread by people going around stating its going to increase costs of their private options ( he already dropped public option because of that )




Limited regulation? Agreed. Total regulation? That just will never happen. Get used to it.
The current proposal is limited regulation, not sure what your definition of "total regulation" would be

Partially. Let me ask you this, when the limits runs out; the regulation kicks in. Who pays for that? We do. Public Option will just pass the costs along, insurance companies won't pick up the tab any more than poor people will.


No, regulation says that if a private insurance company wants to do business they follow the regulation, when we fine a company for polluting a river does our tax money pay the fine or does the private company that committed the offense pay the fine? The regulations simply state the private companies are disallowed from pulling the plug on your grandma, it simply allows them from putting clauses in their contracts that say things like "we reserve the right to modify our end of the agreement at any time regardless of any circumstances with or without reason" that allow them to get away with killing human life ( that paid for and is owed treatment ). We need regulation to eliminate these kinds of scape clauses, I want competition, but I dont want them saving costs by running scams. There is a huge scam industry here in the US where people sign one thing but are told another. At least now the written agreements stand up, without ANY government written agreements would no longer even be valid, without any regulation at all the insurance company could just start letting 100% of their customers go without any treatment, effective tomorrow if they wanted

 

[Pythagllio]

It's been decades since the US Postal Service was a gov't entity. When do people quit using it as an example of government anything?

 

[DiscoBiscuit]

When you make it up as you go along, why waste time with facts.

 

[lysol]

.. Sorry about what happened with your Uncle, but anecdotal stories don't do much more than cloud the argument. My Dad was killed by a Doctor, am I out here bashing Doctors?

Also its not the same thing, I am not out here bashing competition, I am saying that the competition itself needs regulation, just like in a boxing match you can't punch below the belt. If there were laws that allowed doctors to "punch below the belt" yes I would be out here bashing those laws ( not the doctors themselves ). Note I am not bashing insurance companies, I am bashing the law structure which allows them to structure their profit models in the way that they do.

Without the regulation if one company "punches below the belt" just to test the waters, all the sudden it becomes the norm so the other companies can continue to compete at the same profit margins. You can observe this in a free market with gas prices, if the guy across the street has high prices you would be wise to raise your prices up to or below that of his prices. This happens, you see price wars on one block where people are selling at a loss, on the next block you see prices higher then average, competition works both ways. It will lower costs one day and the next day shit could hit the fan if everyone selling gas on that block decides to coordinate a price gouging

 

[otherwhitemeat]

We're getting way off track here. Let's change things up a bit.

Here's some 'morning after' factchecking. Does anyone really beleive this is change we can beleive in?

First of all, it sounds like Olympia Snowe is leaning toward a Public Option trigger. You can read more about it it in a not-so-balanced analysis by Robert Reich on the Huffington Post:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/robert-reich/the-snowe-job-and-why-a-t_b_280533.html But what she's proposing is to give the insurance companies time to clean up their acts. Seems logical, but I tend to agree with Reich on this point.

From an AP release:
http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5g5ewCvsGcSPBeHJurb6qYZLVU8OgD9AKAF902

Some juicy nugs:
"The Congressional Budget Office analyzed the health care bill written by House Democrats and said that by 2016 some 3 million people who now have employer-based care would lose it." So, some of us could actually lose coverage?

Also, the CBO wrote in August "The evidence suggests that for most preventive services, expanded utilization leads to higher, not lower, medical spending overall." So, it's possible this could cost more?

CBO Director Douglas Elmendorf had this to say in July: "We do not see the sort of fundamental changes that would be necessary to reduce the trajectory of federal health spending by a significant amount." So it may not save us any money?


Who's going to pay the bills?

From msnbc.com daily dose:
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/32462685/ns/health-health_care


msnbc.com folks, not foxnews!
"might cause some providers to lower the quality of care they provided or to stop serving Medicare beneficiaries altogether."

We already know Doctors hate taking care of Medicare patients because they pay less, but whatever will they do with the new Obamacare cards?

 

[FREEwoman]

Great post - Otherwhitemeat

The quotes you cite are absolutely true. It still amazes me how people just cannot see things for what they are.

Lysol - I'm glad you love to wallow in regulations, but we FREE people believe that we are responsible enough and perfectly capable of regulating ourselves.

Just so you know, I am for limited gov't that works for the PEOPLE. The less regulations, the better.

I really do wish you could see that government regulations only hurt a true capitalistic system (which has never been experienced on this planet solely BECAUSE of the government's mostly corrupt regulations).

A true economist knows that all markets (including the healthcare market) regulate themselves. It is only when the gov't comes in placing price ceilings and pulling other (corrupt) strings, that things get messed up.

As for your gas station example - who cares if some sell at a high and some at a loss? Is that truly a bad thing? In a pure capitalistic society - the companies must work for the PEOPLE or they get no PROFITS, as the customers will go elsewhere when unhappy. In a situation in which there is a price war going on (or any other situation unfavorable to a consumer) there will always be another person/company ready to move in to fill the need. Supply. Demand. At least we are still free to make our own prices and choices of which gas station (doctor) to go to.

The closer we move to gov't run industries and more REGULATIONS, the more we dig our slavery hole.

 

[DiscoBiscuit]

Great post - Otherwhitemeat

The quotes you cite are absolutely true. It still amazes me how people just cannot see things for what they are.

The quotes he sites happen to be opinions. Some are educated and deserve scrutiny. The world if full of opinions. It's easy to pick the ones you already agree with.

Lysol - I'm glad you love to wallow in regulations, but we FREE people believe that we are responsible enough and perfectly capable of regulating ourselves.

Self regulating health care reform. Sounds like a platitude to go along with the sound bite.

Just so you know, I am for limited gov't that works for the PEOPLE. The less regulations, the better.

I bet you said that when the security futures modernization act was passed.

I really do wish you could see that government regulations only hurt a true capitalistic system (which has never been experienced on this planet solely BECAUSE of the government's mostly corrupt regulations).

Yep. Glass, Stegall was so corrupt it kept us safe from Wall Street's clutches for almost 6 decades. Even Alan Greenspan is shaking in his shoes because his dear market corrections succumbed to human greed. Have you heard what the next bubble will be? Insurance policies. Now you can get a policy pay off and Wall Street will gamble for the potential profits.

A true economist knows that all markets (including the healthcare market) regulate themselves. It is only when the gov't comes in placing price ceilings and pulling other (corrupt) strings, that things get messed up.

There you go again. Ayn Rand piped that stuff in the 50s. Even old school market correction advocates acknowledge it's more philosophy than fact. Sorry FW, too many financial horror stories in the daily papers to take you seriously.

As for your gas station example - who cares if some sell at a high and some at a loss? Is that truly a bad thing? In a pure capitalistic society - the companies must work for the PEOPLE or they get no PROFITS, as the customers will go elsewhere when unhappy. In a situation in which there is a price war going on (or any other situation unfavorable to a consumer) there will always be another person/company ready to move in to fill the need. Supply. Demand. At least we are still free to make our own prices and choices of which gas station (doctor) to go to.

You're living in a dream land if you think your self regulating principles apply to health care. If you're lucky enough to be covered, you're still bound to the contract details. And as for the thousands of folks who paid their dues and were denied coverage, any choice means paying 100% out of pocket.

The closer we move to gov't run industries and more REGULATIONS, the more we dig our slavery hole.

You've lost more personal and financial freedoms from the last administration than all the others combined, including the current one.

 

[RockyMountainHi]

You've lost more personal and financial freedoms from the last administration than all the others combined, including the current one.

Now wait just a moment,,, He's only been there since January and my grandchildren will still be paying for the banks and GM/Crys.


Face it.

either way - we the people -- are fucked.

 

[DiscoBiscuit]

You're right man. Rolled from one admin to the next. We have to pay for everything the last guy failed to care enough about. According to CBO numbers, 70% of the current budget deficit goes to war and tax cuts. 20% goes to a continuation of Bush policy. So the current president has one dollar in ten to clean up the mess he didn't make.

I'd like to see the order reversed and the uproar it would create.

 

[ColBatGuano]

Ah, the government provides. Just sit back and wait for your savior, right? Hurricane Katrina? How'd that work out? Great when you are sitting in the wealthy foothills of CA, but firemen risking their lives to save homes any where else? Regulations led to poor fire suppression techniques in the first place. Glad they saved your home in the foothills, I wonder how much life was risked, and how much taxes went toward those savings, so you could plop your ass down with a nice view? Life should never be risked to save property, you're insured.

So, I guess you've never been to these "wealthy foothills" because the Verdugo foothills in Tujunga, La Crescenta, Glendale, Alta Dena, Acton, Palmdale, and Pasadena aren't really all that wealthy. We're not talking about Malibu. You're trying to make this about class, but you're too classless to realize this fire destroyed the homes of working families and the middle class--not rich people on a hill. I don't live there. A friend does. One who isn't wealthy.

Yeah, I saw the documentary too. Only operated like that in crooked cities like Chicago and New York. The rest of the country had volunteers, without regulation. Worked very well when my house caught fire. There are alternatives and regulatiuons didn't change this, people did, people with lawsuits.

Wrong, wrong, wrong! This was in Portland and Skowhegan, Maine--not New York or Chicago. You're really quite the know-it-all when it comes to my friends and family, aren't you? First we're rich and living in wealthy Los Angeles foothills, and now my grandparents are liars. I don't know what documentary you're referring to, but I learned about this one in middle school in Maine--then asked my grandparents about it.

I had loans too from the government, but wasn't poor enough to have more. Result: I had to work two jobs to finish college. Sometimes, I wish I was poorer. Please tell me that you didn't just use grade schools as example? Oh, hell no. Schools and school districts are VERY corrupt where I live. In NYC alone, it's estimated that 20% of the costs go to grift. Where's your all saving regulation now? My state has 35 school districts that HAVE NO SCHOOLS in them and we have rampant taxes. My state taxes are the highest in the nation and our school systems are the problem. You want to talk bout overhaul, our school system needs it. While we're at, we pay the MOST of any industrialized nation for schooling and have the highest dropout rates. Successful? Oh dear...

I don't know where you live, but it sounds like New York. If so, New York does not have the highest state taxes. Twelve other states, and the District of Columbia have higher tax burdens than New York. Maine has a higher tax burden than New York. So does Kentucky. Maryland is the most taxed state. See, you don't even know why you're complaining about the government . . .

Also, per capita the highest spender on education is Norway, but I'll let you generalize. Also, I worked three jobs in college: bicycle messenger, busboy, and library tech, so don't get your panties in a bunch. You aren't the only person who ever worked their way through college. It helped me pay for the first $10,000-or-so per year. The government helped me out with the other $17,000. I was too busy studying and doing lab assignments to work much more than I did.

And yet, we didn;'t have the wonders of internet porn and icmag until the private enteprise figured out what to do with it. It wasn't regulation that created the internet, it was military spending. The internet languished for 10 years until universities and private enteprise figured out how to use it. It is largely unregulated and managed by private enterprise.

Yeah, but I wasn't talking about regulation, only the impetus to pay for its development--that certainly wasn't coming out of the private sector in the late 60's. Neither was GPS, but lots of people rely on it now, too.

Anecdotal stories of how it benefits YOU don't matter, how do these things benefit mankind as a whole?

Well, I'd like to think that I can use my own experience as an example. Be reasonable. Your perfect world is an impossible dream. If you knew that, you wouldn't have this vain expectation that if everyone was just like you, there wouldn't be any need for any rules anymore. This just isn't reasonable. Nobody is perfect.

Did regulation of the industry save you from Enron?

Perhaps, as it is no longer legal to simply blackout Southern California because some rich trouser-stain in an office in Texas feel slighted by it. People die when things like that happen. Of course, they were old, sick, or poor, and didn't deserve to live.

Does FDA regulation protect you and your kids from Chinese goods?

It depends on what you mean by that. There is nothing inherently wrong with most Chinese goods (like U.S. goods.) Sure some bad stuff gets through, but a lot more doesn't--but we never know because successful regulation doesn't make the news.

Does the CDC protect you from swine flu?

Yes, and countless other diseases. I have first-hand experience with that, having caught an exotic flu strain in 1997--one of about a dozen people who caught it at the Pittsburgh International airport. I nearly died, but the CDC sent a vaccine to the University of Pittsburgh Medical Center--not one specific to my strain, but one effective enough to slow-down the virus so my body could heal itself. You wanna play this card, I've got the medical records to prove this one is BULLSH!T.

Fact is, Public Option is the only way Obama will get the GOP to buy in to the plan, by allowing insurance companies to compete for all those new bodies. Single Payer . . . Enjoy the new taxes!

I do not mind paying taxes for my fellow citizens to have medical help and attention when they need it. I don't mind at all. You see, I'm not a narcissist. I actually care about people.

 

[DiscoBiscuit]

very good points ColBatGuano

 

[lysol]

Who's going to pay the bills?

From msnbc.com daily dose:
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/32462685/ns/health-health_care


msnbc.com folks, not foxnews!
"might cause some providers to lower the quality of care they provided or to stop serving Medicare beneficiaries altogether."

We already know Doctors hate taking care of Medicare patients because they pay less, but whatever will they do with the new Obamacare cards?

If you are anti-government run healthcare, wouldn't it benefit you if that was true? That page doesnt make sense, as is your employer is not required to insure you

THE FACTS: That's correct, as far as it goes. But neither can the plan guarantee that people can keep their current coverage. Employers sponsor coverage for most families, and they'd be free to change their health plans in ways that workers may not like, or drop insurance altogether.
This is idiotic, my old employer offered us a plan that would only cover 50% of our costs, I turned it down and got my own insurance. For 5 straight years before that they had NO insurance. If I own a company no one forces me to offer insurance, it is in my best interest to offer insurance for recruitment purposes, this has nothing to do with reform. If I want to drop coverage for my existing employees what laws currently exist to stop me? None that I am aware of, reform changes nothing in that regard, reform does not dictate which services you use, it prevents companies from running outright scams.

Public option would allow those who are unemployed, to take on jobs without benefits ( cheaper labor furthers free market which you seem to be a fan of ). If you are such a fan of free market, wouldn't it make sense to let an IT company focus on developing IT products instead of trying to play health care provider by night?

If you really want unregulated competition, everyone needs to have a choice instead of being locked in, my boss offered us a raise if we opted to get our own insurance. If companies did this then everyone could get a plan that they liked & could afford ( or go without and spend the $ however they choose).

As far as it taking benefits away from medicare patients, I thought your whole position was screw whoever cannot afford private insurance? Explain this please because now you have lost me.




And lets say we completely de-regulated, lets say blue cross came out with really low prices and great service, everyone switched to them and they ended up buying out other companies... everything is great, but then what if the CEO retires and the new guy decides to increase profits they are going to do large lay offs, which impacts your level of service, how do you think that would affect


A little bit of history

"A quick web search reveals many horror stories with AT&T's customer service reps and their "do not care" attitude. AT&T seems to think that customer problems are never AT&T's fault. They convey a message of "AT&T is always right!" and thereby essentially exhibit the attitude of a company that knows they have a monopoly in the market and the customers have no choice but to do as they say or have no service at all."

http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/677879/att_rebuilding_a_monopoly_and_crushing.html?cat=3

 

[ColBatGuano]

As far as it taking benefits away from medicare patients, I thought your whole position was screw whoever cannot afford private insurance? Explain this please because now you have lost me.

It doesn't work that way. Unfortunately, people who have the staunch anti-government worldview cannot see the forest through the trees. They live in an idealized world, with a nostalgia for an age that never existed. They know, but do not understand the history of their own country, nor the actual bonds of cooperation which tie a strong nation together. I have debated these turkey-birds hundreds of times, and occasionally one of their own ideas slips through the talking-points and sound-bites. They end up talking out of both sides of their mouth, even if metaphorically.

 

[ColBatGuano]

Great post - Otherwhitemeat

The quotes you cite are absolutely true. It still amazes me how people just cannot see things for what they are.

Lysol - I'm glad you love to wallow in regulations, but we FREE people believe that we are responsible enough and perfectly capable of regulating ourselves.

Just so you know, I am for limited gov't that works for the PEOPLE. The less regulations, the better.

I really do wish you could see that government regulations only hurt a true capitalistic system (which has never been experienced on this planet solely BECAUSE of the government's mostly corrupt regulations).

. . .

What absolute twaddle! Complete faith in a human nature which simply does not exist? Are you serious? Have you ever travelled? C'mon, this is idealized musings you're writing-up on this thread. This sort of thing simply does not work. In the age of Star Trek, we may be there, but it is not going to happen in your lifetime, or mine.