G
Guest
i consider a correct answer to be decent not snidy ,it was a joke ,work it out and when u do ,i'll happily accept a pint in the dam as an apology
G
Guest
Have to be a half litre in the Dam won't it?
G
Guest
Ganja Pasha said:
u know me , i dont drink anything by half
im guessing its just jibberish...?????.....fuk it...who cares!!...that drink is well more important
an i will buy you an doc that drink,,,just because i like giving good vibes,,,an im cool as sh1t,,,,yehhhhh
all good!
an i will buy you an doc that drink,,,just because i like giving good vibes,,,an im cool as sh1t,,,,yehhhhh
all good!
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hazyfontazy said:i couldnt agree more ,,i dont toke cheese anymore because of the boredom factor ,,
p.s the s1 will have to go on hold we gotta bx ,ix ,ibl ,nafc and iabs em first
Bah, rubbish, that'll never work without a RTFM first, then a thorough DVDA.
i got vd once!!
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i am a s1!!
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work that one out, an buy me a drink!!...can i get a, "A" men sisters
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G
Guest
ChaosCatalunya said:
depends wether its indica cheese or sativa cheese
ElectroSticky said:
Come on titoon , hit me with some cheese!!!!!!!!! lol
I'll be taking the GHS "Cheese" this time, The cheese isn't still get me bored as i've never smoked it
ElectroSticky with a ghs "cheesy" bud !
Well and now englishprick is a S1
( i couldn t resist ^^ )
But still Great respect to you all for all the sharing in this thread !
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fuuuuuuuuukin hell!!!!
who thinks its cool to use selfed pollen from a elite to hit the cheese ....then incross "like f2",to find keepers??,
is it possible to use mainly only selfed pollen in a multi cross project!
for example......
cheese x ("hand picked pucka cut" selfed pollen)
then!!!!
incross "like f2"
then you have your keeper mom and dad from "cheese x pucka cut" "like f2"
can you then carry on down the line hitting things with selfed pollen??
is cheese not also a good choice to restore vigor to a line also!!!.....maybe it should be used last????????????
is it possible to use mainly only selfed pollen in a multi cross project!
for example......
cheese x ("hand picked pucka cut" selfed pollen)
then!!!!
incross "like f2"
then you have your keeper mom and dad from "cheese x pucka cut" "like f2"
can you then carry on down the line hitting things with selfed pollen??
is cheese not also a good choice to restore vigor to a line also!!!.....maybe it should be used last????????????
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chizzleonetime
Active member
gettin a bit nasty in here no need to be so fuckin nasty everyone rick means well
Selfing has been happening in natural settings since time immemorial. That's not to say it's a great strategy for breeding, but it won't cause total collapse of the gene pool down the line.
Rick, I may be wrong, but it seems like you're interested in preserving the main characteristics of an elite clone in seed form? If this is the case, I would go a whole diffeerent path than selfing. To capture elite traits in seed form you want to use a male from a stable InBredLine. Use a male from a line who's smell is as light and unassuming as possible, this will help ensure that the elite mother's smell traits are not dominated by the male's.
A perfect example of what I'm saying is found in Reservoir Seeds' Kush lines. Rez used Sensi Seeds' Hindu Kush to cross to his elites because the Hindu Kush is not very dominant in smell, it has a very subdued odor and taste profile... PERFECT for crossing to your eilites.
The trick is finding an IBL that is not dominant in the smell/taste department. It's not easy because most IBLs are made because of certain smell/taste characteristincs the breeder is trying to MAKE dominant. Hindu Kush is a rare example of an IBL that will stand out of the way of most elites in a breeding.
After the initial crossing of the elite to the non-dominant (recessive) male, you can further enforce the traits of the dominant elite mother by breeding the males of the original elite x recessive IBL (backcrossing) back to the elite mother. At this generation, I would think about calling it a day and not backcrossing any further, but that's up to you. One backcross is usually a good place to stop in my opinion because the genetic information in the line is still somewhat rich and workable. Further backcrossing will tend to bottleneck the line and possibly uncover unwanted traits. (See Sour Bubble bx3). That's not to say that some strains CAN'T benefit from more backcrossing, but generally one backcross will get you what you want... when you're using a recessive father (i.e. Hindu Kush) for the original cross.
Rick, I may be wrong, but it seems like you're interested in preserving the main characteristics of an elite clone in seed form? If this is the case, I would go a whole diffeerent path than selfing. To capture elite traits in seed form you want to use a male from a stable InBredLine. Use a male from a line who's smell is as light and unassuming as possible, this will help ensure that the elite mother's smell traits are not dominated by the male's.
A perfect example of what I'm saying is found in Reservoir Seeds' Kush lines. Rez used Sensi Seeds' Hindu Kush to cross to his elites because the Hindu Kush is not very dominant in smell, it has a very subdued odor and taste profile... PERFECT for crossing to your eilites.
The trick is finding an IBL that is not dominant in the smell/taste department. It's not easy because most IBLs are made because of certain smell/taste characteristincs the breeder is trying to MAKE dominant. Hindu Kush is a rare example of an IBL that will stand out of the way of most elites in a breeding.
After the initial crossing of the elite to the non-dominant (recessive) male, you can further enforce the traits of the dominant elite mother by breeding the males of the original elite x recessive IBL (backcrossing) back to the elite mother. At this generation, I would think about calling it a day and not backcrossing any further, but that's up to you. One backcross is usually a good place to stop in my opinion because the genetic information in the line is still somewhat rich and workable. Further backcrossing will tend to bottleneck the line and possibly uncover unwanted traits. (See Sour Bubble bx3). That's not to say that some strains CAN'T benefit from more backcrossing, but generally one backcross will get you what you want... when you're using a recessive father (i.e. Hindu Kush) for the original cross.
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I would like to add something that will show the opposite of what I posted above... The great majority of cannabis enthusiasts think in contrary terms to what I posted above. Most people I talk to have always thought things like, "Oh man! Imagine crossing Sour Diesel to OG Kush!!! Wow that would be great."
Well, it may be great weed, but the two lines are very similar to eachother in many ways, and the sum of all their parts is nothing truly new, just a slight mixup of what we already know.
Another example is when you cross something like a Strawberry Cough to, let's say, a Blueberry. Each one of them has a dominant taste gene, so when they cross together, you can't predict what the results will be. The results should be at least as good as one of the parents, but what's the purpose? The two dominant parents will fight for dominance in the offspring. It should be good smoke, but the results might be somewhat muddy and mottled and inconsistent.
It's good to know what you're shooting for before starting. You wouldn't go out with a bow and arrow and just start shooting in the dark, would you? You wouldn't hit any targets. However, if you go out and set up a target, you have a much better chance of hitting it.
I have a target for a breeding... I want to find the Cali-o clone and cross it to the Hindu Kush to stabilize something orangy. It might take some time, but starting with a recessive male will give me the best chance of allowing that orange trait to shine through unhindered.
Well, it may be great weed, but the two lines are very similar to eachother in many ways, and the sum of all their parts is nothing truly new, just a slight mixup of what we already know.
Another example is when you cross something like a Strawberry Cough to, let's say, a Blueberry. Each one of them has a dominant taste gene, so when they cross together, you can't predict what the results will be. The results should be at least as good as one of the parents, but what's the purpose? The two dominant parents will fight for dominance in the offspring. It should be good smoke, but the results might be somewhat muddy and mottled and inconsistent.
It's good to know what you're shooting for before starting. You wouldn't go out with a bow and arrow and just start shooting in the dark, would you? You wouldn't hit any targets. However, if you go out and set up a target, you have a much better chance of hitting it.
I have a target for a breeding... I want to find the Cali-o clone and cross it to the Hindu Kush to stabilize something orangy. It might take some time, but starting with a recessive male will give me the best chance of allowing that orange trait to shine through unhindered.
G
Guest
Great post Crazy Composer, I totally agree with that and you picked the same example I would have - Rez's use of Hindu Kush. Chemdog did a similar thing - he grew out a load of Sensi Seeds lines looking for the best one to cross to the Chemdog cuts and I think he found Afghan #1 and Hindu Kush to be the best choces, I think he plumped for the HK too and that work predates Rez's so perhaps Rez chose HK for that reason - because it had already been determined to be a recessive IBL suitable for breeding. Smart move.
I agree that one backcross is probably enough, although multiple backcrosses can be used, I've read about folks doing a backcross then linebreeding for a couple of gens than doing another backcross to the original mum. I would think the stategy taken in terms of breeding decisions and whether to further backcross of o linebreed subsequent generations of progeny all depends on the particular female you are working with and a large part of the breeding work done should be just to learn about the breeding potential of this female and many of the priogeny will be discarded as dead ends and the path to the eventual goal is only discovered after the breeding work has started, you have to scout around a bit, testing various breeding directions before you hit on the correct path to the goal you wish to reach.
I'm currently working on making a seedline from my El Yucateca Mexican, the work is in the very early stages and to start with I'm crossing the El Yuc cut to various males from stable lines nad then will grow out the various progeny to see how dominant or recessive the El Yuc is, which traits she passes on, what recessive traits pop up etc. After doing a round of progeny testing, hopefully I will be able to determine which of the males I used was the best choice and focus my further linebreeding afforts on that cross. Whether there will be any subsequent backcrossing to El Yuc is totally unknown thus far, I just don't know enough about the El Yuc genetics and their stability and breeding potential to make anything other than a wild guess as to whether it will be suitable for backcrossing in order to stabilise for it's desirable traits. The first male I chose to cross to El Yuc was the one I happened to have immediately at hand - Purple Afghan, and the seeds are forming now so progeny testing will begin in a few weeks when the seeds are ready. The next male I use will probably be a well proven Flo male a friend has.
PA male after 24 days of 12/12, spitting pollen everywhere:
El Yucateca heavily pregnant lower bud, 27 days of 11/13:
I'm really looking forward to seeing how this:
Blends with this:
So you see why I'm not interested in selfing elites, I have my hands full playing with unique and intriguing varieties as yet unknown to the masses, they happen to be my two favourite strains and this work is purely for personal gratification, hopefully some folks will help me out along the way by doing some test growing, such feedback is essential to the amateur closet breeder!
I'm sure people who have followed my work for a while know I'm not interested in kudos and don't give a toss about big reps attached to cuts, so to spend time and space selfing the Cheese just because it's popular and sought after would be to make a complete about-face in terms of priorities and tastes. In the last year or so I've grown things like OG Kush, Trainwreck, Sour Diesel, Cheese, G13 x OG Kush, all well-known and sought after names, and although I thoroughly enjoyed them all, the two lines I chose to keep were both from seeds collected in far flung places, possibly landraces (although I prefer to call them regional cultivars, their exact origins beingsomewhat unknown) and I chose to keep them because they were the two I enjoyed smoking the most, the fact they were the two biggest yielding and easiest to grow as well helped, but the main factor was the fact I liked to smoke those two the most, it would be completely out of line with all my work to date to have made any other choice, if I'd kept any of the others, it would have been partly becausevthey had a well-known name with cachet and that just isn't me.
So while I'm not going to do any further work with the Cheese, I heartily encourage others to do so...
I agree that one backcross is probably enough, although multiple backcrosses can be used, I've read about folks doing a backcross then linebreeding for a couple of gens than doing another backcross to the original mum. I would think the stategy taken in terms of breeding decisions and whether to further backcross of o linebreed subsequent generations of progeny all depends on the particular female you are working with and a large part of the breeding work done should be just to learn about the breeding potential of this female and many of the priogeny will be discarded as dead ends and the path to the eventual goal is only discovered after the breeding work has started, you have to scout around a bit, testing various breeding directions before you hit on the correct path to the goal you wish to reach.
I'm currently working on making a seedline from my El Yucateca Mexican, the work is in the very early stages and to start with I'm crossing the El Yuc cut to various males from stable lines nad then will grow out the various progeny to see how dominant or recessive the El Yuc is, which traits she passes on, what recessive traits pop up etc. After doing a round of progeny testing, hopefully I will be able to determine which of the males I used was the best choice and focus my further linebreeding afforts on that cross. Whether there will be any subsequent backcrossing to El Yuc is totally unknown thus far, I just don't know enough about the El Yuc genetics and their stability and breeding potential to make anything other than a wild guess as to whether it will be suitable for backcrossing in order to stabilise for it's desirable traits. The first male I chose to cross to El Yuc was the one I happened to have immediately at hand - Purple Afghan, and the seeds are forming now so progeny testing will begin in a few weeks when the seeds are ready. The next male I use will probably be a well proven Flo male a friend has.
PA male after 24 days of 12/12, spitting pollen everywhere:
El Yucateca heavily pregnant lower bud, 27 days of 11/13:
I'm really looking forward to seeing how this:
Blends with this:
So you see why I'm not interested in selfing elites, I have my hands full playing with unique and intriguing varieties as yet unknown to the masses, they happen to be my two favourite strains and this work is purely for personal gratification, hopefully some folks will help me out along the way by doing some test growing, such feedback is essential to the amateur closet breeder!
I'm sure people who have followed my work for a while know I'm not interested in kudos and don't give a toss about big reps attached to cuts, so to spend time and space selfing the Cheese just because it's popular and sought after would be to make a complete about-face in terms of priorities and tastes. In the last year or so I've grown things like OG Kush, Trainwreck, Sour Diesel, Cheese, G13 x OG Kush, all well-known and sought after names, and although I thoroughly enjoyed them all, the two lines I chose to keep were both from seeds collected in far flung places, possibly landraces (although I prefer to call them regional cultivars, their exact origins beingsomewhat unknown) and I chose to keep them because they were the two I enjoyed smoking the most, the fact they were the two biggest yielding and easiest to grow as well helped, but the main factor was the fact I liked to smoke those two the most, it would be completely out of line with all my work to date to have made any other choice, if I'd kept any of the others, it would have been partly becausevthey had a well-known name with cachet and that just isn't me.
So while I'm not going to do any further work with the Cheese, I heartily encourage others to do so...
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if im not mistaken cheese is an ibl....and if i were to use an ibl in my project my first choice would have to be cheese!!...
rez has done ssh x ogka(s1)....can i imput more s1 elite pollen into that line???
would i need to do f2`s from the ssh x ogka(s1)??????????
maybe hit it with the cheese (ibl) to restore vigor at the end!!
rez has done ssh x ogka(s1)....can i imput more s1 elite pollen into that line???
would i need to do f2`s from the ssh x ogka(s1)??????????
maybe hit it with the cheese (ibl) to restore vigor at the end!!
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Well, the sshxogka isn't S1, it was an ogka that was stressed to produce pollen, this pollen hit the ssh and that's the cross. It's only an S1 if the pollen hits itself.
I would be EXTREMELY surprised to find out that Cheese is an IBL. I believe, rather, it's an old Skunk selection kept in clone form.
As for the F2 question, I don't know what you're trying to arrive at, so it's hard to answer whether or not you "need" to F2 it. What are you trying to accomplish that you would "need" to do anything at all?
As for throwing, let's say, cheese S1 pollen at the sshxogka, I personally would never do that, but if you did, you would probably see TONS of variation, but other than that you should be okay.
I would be EXTREMELY surprised to find out that Cheese is an IBL. I believe, rather, it's an old Skunk selection kept in clone form.
As for the F2 question, I don't know what you're trying to arrive at, so it's hard to answer whether or not you "need" to F2 it. What are you trying to accomplish that you would "need" to do anything at all?
As for throwing, let's say, cheese S1 pollen at the sshxogka, I personally would never do that, but if you did, you would probably see TONS of variation, but other than that you should be okay.
G
Guest
Well, Cheese is a pheno of Skunk #1 that was discovered in 1988. If the seeds were purchased in 88, they could have been made earlier, even 85 or 86, who knows how long they had been sat in a warehouse?
Was Skunk #1 a truebreeding IBL in the mid-80s? I dunno, I was a kid back then. Today's Skunk #1 as you can buy from various Dutch Seedbanks is an IBL as it's inbred multiple generations (how many is anyone's guess) from the mid-80s Skunk #1.
Cheese certainly isn't truebreeding for it's key trait - it's unique terpenoid profile that gives it it's special taste/smell. As far as high, potency and other aspects, it's just a good example of a Skunk, and as Big Buddha and GHS have shown, when you breed with Cheese, you're really getting a Skunk hybrid, not a Cheese hybrid. To really work the Cheese, you would need to outcross to a recessive male (such as Hindu Kush) then linebreed for subsquent gens, perhaps with one or more backcrosses along the way and lock down that terpenoid profile, but that's a LOT of work and if you don't have a greenhouse and the ability and skills to row out hundreds, if not tousands of plants to do progeny testing and select from, then you will probably fail. Pistils at BBay is doing great work with the Cheese, but he has more resources to work with than 90% of us.
To cross the Cheese to another hybrid such as sshxogka would be silly in my book, you would end up with an F1 3-way hybrid of massive variability and if you then made F2s, that variability would increase massively, so the work in selecting and stabilising any traits from there would be immense and take many years. Much better to choose stable lines to begin with and only two of them, otherwise you're on a hiding to nothing trying to work with such variation without having huge resources to grow huge plant numbers.
Rick, before you even consider doing any breeding work, I really think you need to go away and read everything you can by people like DJ Short, Chimera, Tom Hill, Suzy Cremecheese etc. and learn as much as you can abouit cannabis genetics and breeding, as it's quite plain at the moment that you have planty of enthuiasm but no knowledge and that can be a bad combination. There's a ton of information on icmag, and absorbing that info should be your priority for now, only think of breeding when you have gathered at least the basic knowledge you need, you'll be doing yourself a big favour in the long run to do it this way round.
Was Skunk #1 a truebreeding IBL in the mid-80s? I dunno, I was a kid back then. Today's Skunk #1 as you can buy from various Dutch Seedbanks is an IBL as it's inbred multiple generations (how many is anyone's guess) from the mid-80s Skunk #1.
Cheese certainly isn't truebreeding for it's key trait - it's unique terpenoid profile that gives it it's special taste/smell. As far as high, potency and other aspects, it's just a good example of a Skunk, and as Big Buddha and GHS have shown, when you breed with Cheese, you're really getting a Skunk hybrid, not a Cheese hybrid. To really work the Cheese, you would need to outcross to a recessive male (such as Hindu Kush) then linebreed for subsquent gens, perhaps with one or more backcrosses along the way and lock down that terpenoid profile, but that's a LOT of work and if you don't have a greenhouse and the ability and skills to row out hundreds, if not tousands of plants to do progeny testing and select from, then you will probably fail. Pistils at BBay is doing great work with the Cheese, but he has more resources to work with than 90% of us.
To cross the Cheese to another hybrid such as sshxogka would be silly in my book, you would end up with an F1 3-way hybrid of massive variability and if you then made F2s, that variability would increase massively, so the work in selecting and stabilising any traits from there would be immense and take many years. Much better to choose stable lines to begin with and only two of them, otherwise you're on a hiding to nothing trying to work with such variation without having huge resources to grow huge plant numbers.
Rick, before you even consider doing any breeding work, I really think you need to go away and read everything you can by people like DJ Short, Chimera, Tom Hill, Suzy Cremecheese etc. and learn as much as you can abouit cannabis genetics and breeding, as it's quite plain at the moment that you have planty of enthuiasm but no knowledge and that can be a bad combination. There's a ton of information on icmag, and absorbing that info should be your priority for now, only think of breeding when you have gathered at least the basic knowledge you need, you'll be doing yourself a big favour in the long run to do it this way round.
