What Male to use in a cross?

[pip313]

all this guy wanted was some advice on which male to use for some seeds for him in the future. You guys turned this into a flaming thread. People do not need to know about genetics to make some seeds for the future. all these comments about genes and genetic drift and crap is worthless. Anyone who grows outside and sells any weed is guilty of causing genetic drift too because you don't know how many seeds your stuff has from wild hemp polinating it. Your custo buys some and boom gets a seed from some good shit, plants it and his half dro half hemp seed is what? oh yah hurting the gene pool.

16 pages for you guys to argue back and forth when his answer should have been:

Dude I would use all the good males I had and selectively "knock up" different branches and label them that way you get a good variety and you get rid of the risk of choosing the wrong male. And good luck

But no you guys wanna be smart and start talking about genetics when this dude don't give a crap about breeding just getting more seeds and that is no where near the same thing. You should have started a new thread about genetic drift if thats what you wanted to talk about, the Origional poster deleted the origional post because he was flamed way too much and flat out he did not deserve it. you guys suck sometimes
Bring on the negative karma

 

[Kaneh]

Concerning open pollination for preservation purposes, it's not flawless regardless of the numbers of plants used.
Open pollination favours early plants. A seedline maintained by OP without selection drifts quite a bit. Genes of late maturing plants are lost or at least become uncommon.
Besides that, OP usually invloves selection in the way that plants that deviate too much from the desired standard are eliminated. Again loss of genes.

Very good point IMO.
Plants that can handle best current growing conditions, makes most seeds > their genes come more common in population of a strain.
After enough generations, some genes can be lost totally. (?)
I think it's called evolution.
Constant change is how nature and this universum works, why should we try to fight against this?

I still don't fully understand what nvisionary is raving about. I was thinking about dog-breeds. I'm not familiar with techniques they use, but if I remember correctly, some breeds have only one mother (Eve).
They do ofcourse selective breeding, but do dog-breeders do selfing also? I think it's only way to stabilize some new "phenotype".

(sorry about terminology, it's difficult to write down my thoughts in foreign language, hope you understand what I'm trying to say)

 

[englishrick]

I LOVE THIS QUOTE

These people have patents on 9 strains right now...and will have anyone arrested for having or growing there strains..


they are bayer..gw pharma..and several other companys..they own cannabis patents in 6 countrys..

one co...makes sativex.







GW adopts an aggressive approach to securing intellectual property rights to protect techniques and technologies involved in the development programme. Protection is sought in the areas listed below:

? Plant variety rights
? Methods of extraction patents
? Drug delivery patents
? Patents on compositions of matter for delivery of cannabis
? Methods of use patents
? Design copyright on devices
? Trademarks

In the last few years our intellectual property portfolio has developed considerably. The patent portfolio has more than doubled in size and comprises 42 patent families, within these families there are numerous granted patents both in the UK and in various territories around the world. GW has also developed a trademark portfolio of 21 UK registered trademarks with equivalent marks registered in many other territories around the world. GW also holds nine registered design rights and nine plant variety rights.

lets see so pics of there grows..



Where does GW grow cannabis?
GW's cannabis plants are grown under computer-controlled conditions in secure glasshouses at a secret location in the UK. GW has developed a highly sophisticated cultivation process to ensure plant material grown is of sufficient quality and consistency to be suitable for incorporation into pharmaceutical products.
Strict Standard Operating Procedures (SOPs) are followed to ensure non-contamination by chemicals, infestation or fungal growth, consistency of content, methods of harvest, drying, primary extraction, storage and onward consignment. Temperature, humidity, total light and photoperiod are all controlled by computer.
The facility is situated in the South of England but for clear security reasons we do not divulge the precise location.

i know this is boring....

but heres more about who..what..were?


Dr. Dope's Connection



David Watson, the CEO of the Dutch R&D company Hortapharm, has assembled what is arguably the world's most comprehensive cannabis-seed library.
By: Bill Breen

In the annals of medical-marijuana history, it was a significant moment: In June 1998, British regulators granted GW Pharmaceuticals a license to cultivate and supply marijuana for research and pharmaceutical development. There was just one problem: Where in the world would Geoffrey Guy, GW's founder and chairman, find a legal source of pharmaceutical-grade marijuana seeds -- enough to grow "tons" of material? Someone in England's Home Office gave Guy a tip: A reclusive Dutch company called Hortapharm, founded by two Californian expatriates, might be able to help him out.
In the world of ganja connoisseurs, Hortapharm's founders -- David Watson and Robert Clarke -- are near-gods. Clarke, Hortapharm's principal botanist, is the author of Marijuana Botany and Hashish!, the first serious, science-based books on cannabis cultivation for a counter-culture readership. Watson, the company's CEO, traveled to nearly every marijuana-rich country on the planet and assembled what is arguably the world's most comprehensive cannabis-seed library. Allen St. Pierre, executive director of the National Organization for the Reform of Marijuana Laws, credits Watson with "almost single-handedly preserving hundreds of strains of cannabis."
When I met Watson in his office in a residential neighborhood in Amsterdam, he presented me with two marijuana seeds. One seed, from Kashmir, was the size of a pinhead -- "wild ditch weed, wannabe marijuana," Watson called it. The other was a hemp seed, as fat as a lentil. The seeds could easily have symbolized the breadth of his study of Cannabis sativa.
Watson has a linebacker's build and a crooked, Jack Nicholson smile. On the subject of cannabis, he is ferociously opinionated, frequently punctuating his assertions with an in-your-face refrain: "Do you understand?" What follows are excerpts from a lengthy interview, in which he describes how he and Clarke came to be two of the pioneering entrepreneurs in the Aboveground Marijuana Economy.
What drove you to collect cannabis seeds?
I had a jewelry and clothing import business during the 1970s and early '80s, and I did a lot of traveling throughout Asia. While I was in India, I became aware of Ayurvedic medicine, which still uses cannabis to treat a wide variety of illnesses. I've always had an interest in seeds -- I'm a lifetime member of the Seed Savers Exchange in the US -- and I began collecting cannabis seeds to see how different strains might be used for different medical applications. I also saw how eradication efforts by international law enforcement agencies were having a negative effect on the very high end of the gene pool. I wanted to collect that high end before it was lost. I collected in Mexico, South Africa, Thailand, Colombia -- thousands of strains from dozens of countries.
How would you find the seeds that you wanted?
It depends. If it's during the growing season, you might be able to make contact with an illicit farmer. If it's out of season, you've got to connect with a person who sells illegal cannabis. I've walked into pharmacies and asked, "If I was interested in getting seeds from the cannabis plant for making medicine, where would I get them?" In south India, I notified the police that I was collecting and one of them gave me a plant as a present! My goal was to collect all of these genetics worldwide. It wasn't easy -- sometimes you have to step into harm's way to get the goods.
What kind of a plant would you look for?
In general, you're looking for a clean genetic profile -- the ability to produce the compound you're after. And you want a plant that's producing lots of flowers -- lots of resin. If the plant doesn't have a lot of resin on it, it's probably not going to have very much THC in it, even if the profile is incredibly clean. You need both.
The clones that people are using to produce illicit marijuana are by far primarily only THC [the psychoactive ingredient in marijuana]. They don't really have the other cannabinoids because year after year, recreational smokers have selected only for THC and rejected everything else. But because we're breeding for medicine, we're after THC and all the other cannabinoids. [Cannabis is comprised of 61 cannabinoids, complex molecules unique to the plant, of which THC is the best known.] I don't have any interest in collecting varieties that have been developed in the West by marijuana growers. They're just have the same old THC, which is what recreational smokers are looking for. I want varieties that have unusual characteristics in their growth or flowering period, or new and unusual sources of cannabinoids.
What led you to launch Hortapharm?
Our original business plan was to breed pharmaceutical-grade cannabis and use it to produce a cheaper, generic version of Marinol. [Marinol is a synthetic-THC tablet for treating nausea induced by cancer chemotherapy.] We knew we could produce pure THC from the plant, which is superior to a synthetic. I'm convinced that the synergistic effects of the full plant, which in its natural form produces 400 compounds, is far more medically beneficial that any single synthetic component.
We were going to knock our price down at least a third or more from Marinol's price tag. We thought that within a year or two, we could grab 66% of Marinol's $20-million market, which was enough to support our small company. But money wasn't the reason we did this. We were really interested in bringing cannabis back into mainstream medicine.
Given the drug laws in the United States, I guess you had no choice but to set Hortapharm up in the Netherlands.
We never could have carried out this activity in America -- we would have turned old and gray just waiting to do the work. So in 1994, we applied to the Dutch Ministry of Health for a license to cultivate cannabis. We finally got it in 1997, which made us the Netherlands' first legal operation to grow cannabis for pharmaceutical research. The application process was extraordinarily rigorous. I was shocked by how long it took. Holland has this rep as the marijuana capital of the world. But while it's true that you can buy a small amount in a coffee shop, the government is very strict with cultivation.
How did you go about growing pharmaceutical-grade cannabis, which must be standardized to be made into a medicine?
That's the thing. If you bought tomato seeds and grew 100 plants, they'd all come out the same. But if you bought cannabis seeds on the black market and grew 100 plants, you're probably going to get a lot of variation. Amateur growers just don't have a full understanding of how to breed. I had spent years collecting cannabis seeds worldwide. We grew thousands and thousands of those, analyzed them, and selected for the target compounds we really wanted. We grew the plants in a big glasshouse and we also grew outdoors, in secret locations.
[Watson displays a photograph of five acres of high-grade pot, cultivated for seed production, from "somewhere" in Europe.] After we extracted the seeds we wanted from this crop, we burned all five acres. My American friends were dumbfounded -- it would have been worth millions of dollars on the black market. But that's what plant breeders do -- we grow 100,000 plants, keep 100 of them, and trash all the rest. I love to kill. I'm getting rid of everything that's imperfect.
Okay, so you got the seeds you wanted. How did you then grow plants that were genetically consistent -- a prerequisite for producing medicine?
Cannabis is normally a heterozygote, which means it has two sets of chromosomes -- one from the mother and one from the father, and they vary. Through a proprietary technique we developed called selfing, we became the world's first breeders to develop homozygote cannabis, in which both sets of chromosomes are identical. We then mass produced plants with just the one cannabinoid profile we wanted. We grew plants that were 98% THC, or 98% CBD. And that's what Geoffrey Guy [founder of GW Pharmaceuticals] was looking for. He wanted different cannabinoids -- THC, CBD, CBC, CBG -- which he could then blend in different ratios and explore them for their medical efficacy. We were the only ones in the world who had what Geoffrey badly needed.
How did you meet Dr. Guy?
We had sent a representative to a meeting of the Multiple Sclerosis Society in England, which Geoffrey attended. We were the only people there that were supporting the U.K. government's position on medical marijuana, which was to take a step-by-step approach to studying the issue. Everybody else just wanted to legalize medical marijuana tomorrow. We felt it was better to test the materials first and put them through a normal drug-approval process. Our colleague impressed Geoffrey, and he contacted us.
When Geoffrey came over here in 1998, we were getting close to our financial limit. We're an R&D company -- we didn't have a product that was making an income. The problem for Geoffrey is that all cannabis experts have backgrounds -- they've built their expertise by working with an illegal material. But Hortapharm was fully licensed by the Dutch government. So Geoffrey got a legal supply of pharmaceutical grade germ-plasm. And he got me and Robert Clarke to pass along our knowledge. We gave him at least a five-year head start.
If Sativex, GW's cannabis-based medicine for treating MS symptoms, gets approved by British regulators, what effect will that have on the debate over medical marijuana? It will prove to people, patients, and businesses that cannabis can be a valuable therapeutic agent. And once Sativex gets the go-ahead in the UK, it will quickly win approval in Europe, Canada, and Australia -- and the U.S. will be the one country to stand there and say, No, cannabis has no therapeutic application. But I don't think American scientists will stand for that.

 

[SOTF420]

These people have patents on 9 strains right now...and will have anyone arrested for having or growing there strains..


they are bayer..gw pharma..and several other companys..they own cannabis patents in 6 countrys..

Fuck them, the plant will always be free they can't restrict it more than it's already been restricted by nonsense US laws. Any "trademark infringement" would not be a criminal offense anyways in the USA at least, it would be a civil money matter so the whole arresting people threat is complete BS. What are they gonna do genetic tests on plants people are growing? lol

It does however sound like the have a serious genetic library of Cannabis which is good to know that even if not for our growing it's at least there for the research & science. Whatever they have can most likely still be obtained with the help of our network of cannabis growers worldwide. United as one, we the people all have much more genetic resources and a network that would put their few experts to shame.

Anyone care to list all the "pure" strains that are reputable and still available readily in seed form for us to acquire if one wanted to compile a genetic library of sorts?

 

[BKindication]

very interesting discussion, not quite sure why Chimera doesnt offer more landraces or IBL's in his range given his opinions.

all plants that are useful - even just for decorative purposes - are crossed and selfed by man and generally some new varieties emerge with something better to offer. can anyone give me an example of a plant species that has somehow been ruined due to this? i cant think of one. sh1te seed strains surely will fade away whilst good new strains will stick around.

i fully intend to make some of my own seeds, in fact ive made a few small batches already and look forward to testing them to see if they have any improvements over their parents. i'm also making f2's of stuff so i can look for phenos out of that. if anyone reallly wants me to desist from this then they are welcome to send me, free of charge, some excellent genetics that will make me never feel the need to try something new ever again

V.

I believe bananas are rapidly degrading.

 

[VerdantGreen]

Back in the day before people sprayed their plants with hormones selfing meant incrossing plants of the same variety and same seed generation with themselves. Seems there's a little confusion between the hormone spray version of selfing and the other going on here.

no, i think the difference is that cannabis is usually dioecious (different plants for male and female) so in order to self it one has to treat it with hormones or encourage male flowers somehow. most plant species are both male and female and so selfing is a much more simple process. some plants (cannabis not amongst them) have a natural mechanism called self incompatibility that means they cannot pollinate themselves - which obviously discourages natural inbreeding and this must have had an evolutionary advantage.

V.

 

[VerdantGreen]

all this guy wanted was some advice on which male to use for some seeds for him in the future. You guys turned this into a flaming thread. People do not need to know about genetics to make some seeds for the future. all these comments about genes and genetic drift and crap is worthless. ...

i beg to differ - this is one of the best threads i have read on this site - very thought provoking discussion between real experts (im NOT counting myself amongst them ) often the best discussions occur in a random way as they have here and the thread is much more than the answer to the first post. as for the flaming, this is an emotive topic - and anyhow - when have you ever seen a truly great thread that didnt have a little bit of drama in it ???

V.

 

[GreenintheThumb]

NO ,,,,,selfing is just 1 side of the coin, imo its a very important side too!!,,,,from what i can tell Nvishion is saying "use ALL males from a full sib line",,,,,,,,but NONE of us know what actualy happens when we use NO males,,,,honestly G, its the blind leading the blind!!

Some of us know what happens when we use no males. One of those people is nvisionary. This is all old news Rick.

there is a company in the UK called GW PHARMA ,they make sativex,,,,GW PHARMA hold many purelines ,,Robbert Clarke sold them the source genomes in pure form,,,,,,he prepared all the lines via selfing,,,,NOT OP!!!!,,,,, why NOT OP????,,,,,,,,,from imported canna seed too, Robbert Clarke blended the ratios of THC, CBD,CBN!!,,,,,,,purelines created via selfing!!,,,,,,GW PHARMA has a real licence for growing canna now,,x1000 aint mutch to them,,,,,,,why aint they openpolinating too,,,,,lets buy Nvishon a flight ticket quick

Once again i'm astounded by how much you don't understand. Visionary wants to OP to preserve as much as the genepool possible until the situation is legal and hundred of breeder/companies like Watson and Clarke's can spring up and accomplish some real genetic gain. I don't know why you're arguing ways to make selection when nvisionary is talking about preservation. Do you understand that they're polar opposites? And I'm sure Sam and company OPed many a line to maintain them.

imo,, the best outlier indervidual is the 1 that expresses the most amount of desired traits within the Target Enviroment,,,the best clone outa 1,000,000 should be utalized!!

Yes and since you don't have the space or knowledge to maintain all the traits of interest in an elite individual in seed form a good alternative is to preserve the genes that make her special by OP. Or since it's a single female individual make a few hundred S1s and then give them to Sam's company. hahaha He might be able to do something useful with them.

my spelling is more than bad G,,,,most peeps can tell ME from my spelling,,,,seriously GreeninTheThumb this is my only username,,,^^^doc aint interested too mutch in selfing, but selfing is something i would LOVE to understand fully [i try big-time too],,,please dont sujest im a lier,,,loads of peeps here can vouch for me as an indervidual,,,,im not a flybynight dude,,,,2nd nick`s all over the place and im the ghost,,,lol,,,,get some balls lads,,,make multiple post on your own usernames,,,comon peeps, dont be internet shitbags,

Good god rick. I just find it so hard to talk to you. You are not a bright guy. I was making a joke Rick. Joking that even if you made a new nick when you're more educated on the subject of breeding that everyone would be able to tell that you're you. Of course you don't have multiple nicks right now. That was the joke...I'm just dumbfounded how you would believe I was somehow calling you a liar. Seriously, if you can't understand the simple layman's english i'm using why are you even bothering trying to understand scientific texts? You are not cut out for this stuff Rick, I'm sorry. For what it's worth I think you're a nice enough guy and maybe you do try hard to understand all this stuff. Take Care.

 

[whodi]

happy thanksgiving

 

[englishrick]

i think preservation by OP is like trying to slow an unstopable force,,,,,god gave us the ability to remove ourselvs and evolve,,,,this sh1t happens ,,we just need to direct it ,,,right?,,,,,,OP is not a direction its the road to hemp imo,,,,,,, maybe we ALL need to focus on developing new pure-lines, from the exsisting pure lines we have,,colection of pure lines is top priority!, an any1 can do that , with toms help,,thanks tom

some scientists would assert that the whole concept of penetrance is a band-aid which exists to mask the reality that a fully understanding of the polygenic nature of a trait has not been achieved.

Through a proprietary technique we developed called selfing, we became the world's first breeders to develop homozygote cannabis, in which both sets of chromosomes are identical. We then mass produced plants with just the one cannabinoid profile we wanted. We grew plants that were 98% THC, or 98% CBD. And that's what Geoffrey Guy [founder of GW Pharmaceuticals] was looking for. He wanted different cannabinoids -- THC, CBD, CBC, CBG -- which he could then blend in different ratios and explore them for their medical efficacy. We were the only ones in the world who had what Geoffrey badly needed.

 

[spliphy]

always wear your hard hat

always wear your hard hat

i think preservation by OP is like trying to slow an unstopable force,,,,,god gave us the ability to remove ourselvs and evolve,,,,this sh1t happens ,,we just need to direct it ,,,right?,,,,,,OP is not a direction its the road to hemp imo,,,,,,, maybe we ALL need to focus on developing new pure-lines, from the exsisting pure lines we have,,colection of pure lines is top priority!, an any1 can do that , with toms help,,thanks tom

some scientists would assert that the whole concept of penetrance is a band-aid which exists to mask the reality that a fully understanding of the polygenic nature of a trait has not been achieved.

this is the internet though....some vigorous 'back and forth' is to be expected...I admire the passion...many 'non expert' folk have developed great inventions

keep the passion and pursue your goal...eventually you will find what to study to 'round out' your understanding...all the best

 

[GreenintheThumb]

i think preservation by OP is like trying to slow an unstopable force,,,,

And why should anyone care what you think? I think preservation is the most important thing you could do for cannabis. Certainly the only productive thinig.

god gave us the ability to remove ourselvs and evolve,,,,this sh1t happens ,,we just need to direct it ,,,right?

Um, God gave me a brain that I use to further my understanding of proper breeding techniques. He gave you a brain too.

,,,,,,OP is not a direction its the road to hemp imo,,,,,,,

Please explain to me how this would happen. I'd love to hear it.

maybe we ALL need to focus on developing new pure-lines, from the exsisting pure lines we have,,colection of pure lines is top priority!, an any1 can do that , with toms help,,thanks tom

How do you make new pure-lines from existing ones? What does this even mean? And what's the BEST way to preserve a line Rick? Oh right, OP. How is Tom helping you do anything? You've made some Cheese S1s...that's it. Congrats. I guess you should be thanking hyb because you used a technique he pioneered almost a decade ago. Of course, he would just tell you to stop breeding and only grow out the clone

some scientists would assert that the whole concept of penetrance is a band-aid which exists to mask the reality that a fully understanding of the polygenic nature of a trait has not been achieved.

And I'm sure they love you speaking for them.

 

[GreenintheThumb]

Fuck them, the plant will always be free they can't restrict it more than it's already been restricted by nonsense US laws. Any "trademark infringement" would not be a criminal offense anyways in the USA at least, it would be a civil money matter so the whole arresting people threat is complete BS. What are they gonna do genetic tests on plants people are growing? lol

This strikes me as incredibly naive. Why shouldn't breeder's work be protected? EVERY other plant on the planet has laws designed to protect the people putting in work and releasing novel or improved lines. Don't you think Steve would have loved to be able to sue the Federation guys when they were stealing all his work?

And when a company or a man owns a cultivar it doesn't mean they go and test every plant in the world and sue or charge for people growing it. You can go grow whatever heirloom tomato you want to. But if you repackage those seeds as your own release and try to profit off of it, then you'll see some litigation. What's true of every plant on the planet should be true of cannabis. We're not special.

 

[nvisionary]

Thanks to GiT for being another voice of REASON. Thank You!

Ok, lets continue....its a bit long so dont fade on me now...

Verdant Green:"if a lucky grower had an old 10 pack of, say, BG C99, or skunk1 or whatever, wouldnt it be better for him to make some seeds when he grew them out rather than not do so? i think to not make seeds at all just because it cant be done perfectly is kind of throwing the baby away with the bath water."

>>Hey Verdant, Did you not understand how genetic erosion occurs? Damn I thought I was pretty clear.
10 seeds from a previous hackjob of a previous hackjob(C99, skunk1,etc..) are already
eroded. They're missing important genes already. These are already not the kind of seeds we wish to have in storage for the future. And youre talking about doing yet another erosion generation to them. ???? Yknow??
Theres a better chance that these 10 'parents' will produce offspring that will have diminished traits. That is not good.
Most of the people that make these hackjobs dont even make 2000 seeds
TOTAL!!!(seednoobtique/speedbay), so,.. they dont even include all the diversity in the
parents they used. What exactly would the point be to use pre-eroded seedlots? Certainly NOT for any kind of future breeding because they are now weakened by erosion and that's not how breeders maintain germplasm, let alone improve it. Theres a drop in the potential for the speed-lots to even produce keepers, with every generation of POOR HANDLING.
I can think of only one reason and that would be to make some FURTHER eroded seeds with the 10 pack in case I had plans to bug out and hole up in a Unibomber shack someday, and stop being in contact with anyone in the real world. Do you plan on dropping out of sight? lol.

Basically, (again) What it comes down to is this: You dont have enough resources -in seed form and in legality-, nor the requisite breeding facilities(open acreage, plus other
controlled environments) to even MAINTAIN germplasm properly, let alone improve it.
I am proposing to have you and others finally acknowledge this, and do your part to stop facilitating the erosion of the remainder of the gene pool, through MINIMIZING sexual
reproductions of the gene pool with insufficient plant counts. If you cant make the seeds properly, dont.

Can you do this? Or are you driven by an addiction to make seeds without the proper
environment?Maybe its just some juvenile PHASE youre going through...Thats the question you need to answer..to yourself.

Tom Hill:"The fact is that germplasm I have spent decades collecting and maintaining stands a better chance today than it did one year ago in regards to its existence in the future."

>>>Your hackjobs are out there more than if youd not released them into the stream, but they are not contributing positively to the overall health of the pool. You have in fact re-released germplasm that was already in the pool, and once may have been genetically distant, and sold it out into the stream of speed hacks. They have already integrated your '14th cousin' genes into their speed hackjobs, and made them 1st cousins to their speed hacked polyhybrids. One more generation of amateur breeding and they will be SIBLINGS. Nothing good came from doing that. come on!

TomHill:"More than 50% of this "gene pool" we have on this site is still likely derived from a very small handful of lines -like 3-4 haha. Putting forward the notion that this IS the
gene pool ALL IN has a 100% probability of having me lmao - it would probably be tripled
with a couple more guys' collections lol."

>>Yea, laugh your ass off man. Like a fool does.. The fact is, sites, -and dabblers like you- that advocate hackjobs by amateurs have integrated nearly the entire globe's useful drug germplasm..- in SHORT ORDER too.
Look at all the land race seed now, that could have been held closer....now its being integrated by know-nothings who are only focused on hybridizing them to their other polyhybrids.
And I feel somewhat responsible for some of this.. You see, I have already gone down the road of EDUCATION of this community...MANY TIMES.... by way of "educating" them that the more genetic distance you have, the more successful you might be with your hybrids. Its exactly like the eXe/feminization..look at what happened from introducing that tool..more hacking; its exactly like The Backcrossing Method. Look what good came from that..more hacking; its like every thing that SHOULD be a carefully employed tool, but it CANT BE EMPLOYED IN THIS POLITICAL CLIMATE; so it becomes nothing more than another knife in the back of cannabis because they just dont have the freedom or the insight to employ these tools properly..... Like handing a 4 year old a loaded shotgun and telling them not to shoot anything with it. They will. You try and EDUCATE, to get them up to speed, and all that comes from it is more erosion. Thats why "education" is NOT key in this community. We need another avenue. Open Pollination only. Until its legal; Its simple enough of an idea for a '4 year olds mentality', and will preserve genetic resources. I know you understand this, and I know you want to sell seeds. Its unfortunate that this is a dilemma for you.

TH:"My point is that you can not use the "it's a numbers game" when it's convenient, then tuck all that back in your pocket again when it suits."

>>>>I dont know what you mean. When did I say it was NOT a numbers game?

Vorsprung:"Doing the best they can under the circumstances they work -- and all with a good attitude - something to take note of."

>>I have taken note many times of typical fully-baked feelgooders with their jah bless BS and careless pothead 'vibe' and that doesnt get ANYTHING done but more gene loss.
The rest of your post(#196) was not worth addressing because we have already addressed the fact that land races are not intact anymore, etc, etc... and you obviously dont understand whats up. Take 10 tokes.

Verdant, Yes it is a better option for you to make one huge batch of your own seeds, store them properly and never release them into the stream, than it is to BUY seeds from a site frequented by careless seedmaking/seed-addicted individuals who ENCOURAGE the repeated sexual reproduction of the gene pool with small populations. Do it and be done with it. You are now set for life, and not involved with future genepool degredation. Good for you, man. In a world Id like to see, you could exchange seeds -WHEN and IF you needed them for growing or breeding- with others who have properly maintained their germplasm through large-scale Open Pollination and Storage.

Kaneh:"So, basicly you're saying that nobody in this planet makes seeds in "right" way? I find that very hard to believe."

>>>>> I bet you do.. I invite you or ANYONE to PROVE a GOOD drug canna seed production company in this world. Actually, you will not be able to do it. There are NO seed production facilities doing the work on a proper scale.
SHOW ME ONE Kaneh. ONE. Dont TELL me about one.. SHOW ME . PROVE IT. You will learn an important lesson in the process of researching it. Do it.

Kaneh:"I don't use clones anymore. I'm not commercial grower, so I can afford to have couple not so good phenos.
It's more fun using seeds and getting lots of different kinds of plants.
Where I'm standing MJ-genepool looks just fine."

>>>This should be made the Pot Newbie's Official Motto. Put it on as your signature so everyone knows that youre ignorant and careless, in case you ever post about breeding cannabis again.
Your "fun" is the second reason why we have a gene pool under attack, and losing.

Vorsprung:"There are 'winners' to be found in 'pollen chuck' seeds. That being said I've grown out a bunch of hay, too... but it's worth it to find the couple superstars."

>>>> I dont doubt it. The First Hybrids were all better than your 2009 "winners". What you need to understand is HOW that happened, and that the possibility of this happening is reduced with every subsequent polyhybridization with small populations. As the parents become MORE AND MORE RELATED, hybrid vigor is LOST and inbreeding is imparted. Do you know what Im saying??????

TH:"Yes, I think my stock stands a better chance of surviving into the future than before
because more numbers will be ran -collectively- than ever before."

>>>> GiT nailed it already. Its called Experimental Error to have your evaluation done in different facilities. There is a place in plant breeding for this kind of approach, but it is bastardized in this setting, and is not effective because the sub-populations become SMALL, expensive and RISKY, then become eroded and fragmented. They dont become eroded in PROFESSIONAL breeding programs.
Tom, your seedlots are already hybridized into the rest of the pool. Shit, they were already FROM THE POOL. You dont have something that isnt already part of the drug gene pool. No.
Your 'works' are not very "survived" either; they are(or will be soon) integrated, fragmented and RELATED to everyone else's. That was done by the same folks you are talking to right now, telling them its OK to do it..so they were HAPPY to do it. And now its done. Education backfiring on Sesame Street.

This deserved a second run.

"We have set a minimum limit of 1,000 plants in each population. This should ensure 99% preservation of the gene pool of monoecious varieties, and 95% of the gene pool of dioecious varieties. A population size of 2,000 for dioecious accessions is required to ensure that 99% of the gene pool will be preserved (Crossa 1993)." From: Report on the maintenance of hemp (Cannabis sativa L.) germplasm accessioned in the Vavilov Research Institute Gene Bank- 1994 by Nikolai Lemeshev, Lyudmila Rumyantseva and Robert C. Clarke"

DID YOU CATCH THAT? DO YOU THINK ITS ALL JUST MY INTUITION? Do you think you know better than these authors? Id like to see you advocate the erosion of hemp to these guys..lol Thank god hemp is out of your peripheries....

spliphy, these big companies you talked about are already there. They already have the gene pool collected and already own patents to keep you from doing anything with "their" genetic sequences when the Time comes. You see? they are planning for it too. While amateurs are crossing the gene pool willy-nilly and having FUN, these fuckers are ready to OWN it all. Are you happy with that? The "fuckers" Im talking about are drug genepool hacks themselves,..they might be your HEROS too, if you knew WHO David Watson is around here. Look into it and get a better picture of what is happening.

DocLeaf:"it doesn't reverse sex with stress or chemicals. "

>>>Bullshit. It "reverses". It may not make viable pollen. Theres a genetic difference.

BKindication:"So how are they ruining the genepool if they are completely gone? And the stock they used for their hackcross is still available."

>>>> Because amateurs dont have the hackjobs adequately backed up. Many buy 10 seeds or less, proceed to make 20-30 seeds or less, and soon thereafter, -when they decide the seeds they made are fucked-, its all dropped and they want another seedlot to kick around. While this is happenng on a huge scale, Meanwhile back at the Ranch,
The Original gene pools are gone too because the Professional seedmakers are really just
other clueless amateurs who have done the same thing. Ultimately what is left from this kind of breeding are only fragments of what WAS. It all should have been left alone.

Jones:"Open pollination favours early maturing plants. A seedline maintained by OP without selection drifts quite a bit. Genes of late maturing plants are lost or at least become uncommon."

>>> This is the same trend that occurs in amateur bedrooms and closets,...
With LOW SELECTION OP, there is a better chance of less genetic erosion and less genetic drifting, than what is happening with hard selection on small populations, over and over and over.
Since there are no real amateur strains, the idea of genetic DRIFT is moot on those. None of their seed introductions have a stable character profile to adhere to in the first place.LOL.
So, any drift is just random and of no consequence. Its the EROSION that takes place at the same time that hurts forever.

 

[GreenintheThumb]

Nice post nvisionary. Your time spent here is certainly appreciated.

TH:"My point is that you can not use the "it's a numbers game" when it's convenient, then tuck all that back in your pocket again when it suits."

>>>>I dont know what you mean. When did I say it was NOT a numbers game?

I believe Tom wants you to acknowledge that by the numbers run worldwide that somewhere there has been a very successful mating that produced real genetic gain. Just by random chance. He seems to believe that some of the hack crosses will be useful but that most will fail. That's what I got out of it anyway.

@Jones - Why do you believe OP would prefer earlier plants? I understand that evolutionarily that makes sense but at the same time weren't some late flowering landraces maintained through OP? You don't think if you OP thai for a few years you'll end up with ruderalls do you?

 

[englishrick]

just practacing OP with your source seeds will let the line slip imo,,,you need to direct things into a Target Enviroment!!,,,you cant expect things to stay the same,,,the enviroment will change and then so will the line,,,,,what you had will look nothing like it used to...if your expecting to bring the sourceline back after all that OP, i think your gona be askin for a spoon,,trying to fish that digestive biscuit outa your cup of tea..

 

[Jones]

.

 

[SOTF420]

This strikes me as incredibly naive. Why shouldn't breeder's work be protected? EVERY other plant on the planet has laws designed to protect the people putting in work and releasing novel or improved lines. Don't you think Steve would have loved to be able to sue the Federation guys when they were stealing all his work?

And when a company or a man owns a cultivar it doesn't mean they go and test every plant in the world and sue or charge for people growing it. You can go grow whatever heirloom tomato you want to. But if you repackage those seeds as your own release and try to profit off of it, then you'll see some litigation. What's true of every plant on the planet should be true of cannabis. We're not special.

Well, if you actually read my comment I merely pointed out that nobody would be getting arrested by this drug company for "infringing" on their patented or trademarked strains which don't belong to them in the first place in all reality. There would however be civil remedies available to them though, at least in the USA. I'm all for protecting one's work as far as breeding goes and the only real way to do that is not ever release it. People are going to rework strains and make their own seeds whether you or anyone likes it or not. If that was not the case we would'nt still have half the strains we do. All this talk of genetic loss, erosion, blah blah blah. Pot is better today than ever quality and variety wise and not every recombination of genes is a bad one. There is a concept called "Hybrids" lol. The joining of Sativa & Indica genetics have revolutionized indoor growing and you do not need a selection of thousands of plants to choose from to create quality crosses. That other "half" that may be "lost" gene wise may not always be desireable in the first place and people breeding hand selected parents from known varieties stand a much better chance at a positive outcome than a field full of random plants getting pollinated by multiple males.

If you guys are such great breeders then what have you created lately, what are your strains and where did they come from in the first place? I hear alot of shit talk and alot of negative condescending ramblings from GIT and nvisionary but I see no proof in the pudding here. Tom Hill is the only reputable breeder so far contributing in this thread. You others are so much more elite and smarter than everyone, you know everything about breeding and have all the answers. Prove it then, walk the walk instead of all the negative bullshit. Wow the world of cannabis with your expertly bred strains that are perfect in every way! What's that? You don't have any? Oh..

 

[Tom Hill]

He won't acknowledge any of that GitT,

He would rather pretend he doesn't understand what I am saying, or that I am talking about something else, experimental error etc.

Nvisionary, man, it seems to me that your absolutes are absolute guesses - who is and who's not contributing positively to the future of the gene pool, what can and can not be employed, that the entire global pool has been integrated, that there is no genetic distance left, that there are no good matings happening, and on and on.

Why only half of the picture dude? Do you really think that THE ENTIRE AUDIENCE here are four year-olds? They are not. If genetic distance is the key, then selfing is the most effective method for increasing it - oops, let's forget about that part eh?

Why are you asking me if I caught what I pointed out in both of your hidden threads? I am -in the midst of your attack- trying to point out to folks that you have some footing on some of this yammering with links etc. DID YOU CATCH THAT?

How was your fishing trip by the way? Probably out there selfishly hammering on some extremely depleted species am I right? Surely you can come up with something else to feed yourself and your family than to just be out there getting your yaya's and yooyoo's off on that activity? Put your tackle box away and stop pissing all over. -Tom

 

[GreenintheThumb]

@ Jones

But in that example we're not talking OP. That grower didn't keep his lines pure. He accidentally hybridized them due to hermies and early flowering overlooked staminate plants. The only reason his first season plants were healthy is because of the hybrid vigor this ignorant grower stumbled upon. Big surprise he was not able to maintain the line and it degraded. Regardless, this example has absolutely nothing to do with OP maintained lines. Random pollination of hermies and staminate plants that weren't rogued out when a grower was trying to make a sinsemilla crop doesn't constitute open pollination.

@SOTF go grow "your" sweettooth then. Did you even read this thread? Is all this discussion above your head? How do you create hybrids when everything is related? Did you not notice that nvisionary said NOONE can properly breed cannabis due to the legal constraints? And Sam sold those plants because they DID belong with him. He put in the work and he was the one who got paid. That's how it works. I don't notice you or Neville or anyone else suing him for the rights.