What Male to use in a cross?

[Jones]

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[Tom Hill]

You have it right Jones. I try to counter some of this by pruning back the earliest 20% +/- males some in OP's to achieve a more even pollen spread or by collecting even pollen mixes at a separate location. Lots of selection occurs in an OP.

 

[GreenintheThumb]

In an OP this is only an issue if you don't also collect the late flowering female's seed that could very well have been pollinated by a slightly longer flowering male. Like I said if you OP thai, it will stay thai, it won't degrade to ruderalis unless you let it. And there were plenty of late flowering landraces that were OPed.

IMO lots of selection should not be happening in an OP. It's kind of against the idea. Perhaps there's a more accurate term for what you describe Tom?

 

[Jones]

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[spliphy]

good assessment Tom

good assessment Tom

Nvisionary, man, it seems to me that your absolutes are absolute guesses - who is and who's not contributing positively to the future of the gene pool, what can and can not be employed, that the entire global pool has been integrated, that there is no genetic distance left, that there are no good matings happening, and on and on.-Tom

also, 'panic mode' is not the best way to solve the problem, Mr. nvisionary...it will work out

my plants are calling me .....out

 

[Jones]

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[GreenintheThumb]

I guess I should change 'let it' to 'make it.' But yeah, if your pushing it any particular direction I would say it's not a true OP.

 

[Tom Hill]

In an OP this is only an issue if you don't also collect the late flowering female's seed that could very well have been pollinated by a slightly longer flowering male. Like I said if you OP thai, it will stay thai, it won't degrade to ruderalis unless you let it. And there were plenty of late flowering landraces that were OPed.

IMO lots of selection should not be happening in an OP. It's kind of against the idea. Perhaps there's a more accurate term for what you describe Tom?

I don't think so. If male cannabis plants only produced viable pollen for a few days maybe but this isn't the case. There are different types of competition happening among plants in an open pollination, and for this reason selection occurs. They went into this and strategies to counter it a bit on that link I believe.

 

[Jones]

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[SOTF420]

@SOTF go grow "your" sweettooth then.

How do you create hybrids when everything is related?

I surely will. I have never claimed it as mine, other than the risks, time, and work I have put into selection and preservation of such a great strain. One of the few "true" breeding strains out there that was actually stabilized somewhat with good backcrosses by Steve. (thank God)

Everything is surely not related either, that is a very naive statement. There are many distinct & distant cannabis genetics & species readily available at this point in history. For every "half" of a plants genes that are lost to a new cross - the other new distinct half is gained and new sometimes very positive expressions occur. I don't think any of us can disagree on that. Either way without new seeds being made this highly persecuted plant would most likely not be as prominent and widespread as it is today in such a non-legal climate. The seed = preservation, no questions about it. Better than extinction.

What male to use? Every single healthy one you have and make as many seeds as you can.

 

[eugenegreen]

Dude, you're just a dick, huh? I mean throughout history (mankind) people have gathered fruits, and more importantly gathered the, pits, seeds, etc, and brought them wherever they went... If birds (or bees/wind with pollen) are said to be natures best method of distant delivery of an otherwise heavy seed which would stay put within a radius of 3 FEET of the plant, then humans are the BIGGEST contributor to the survival (and sadly some destruction) and subsequent improvement over an existing species, whatever it might be... Do you know how many different types of tomatoes there are in this big world (count heirlooms too, i'll say this preemptively because you will probably come back with "look at grocery tomatoes bred for size, as opposed to heirloom", blah, blah)??? How about apples, peaches, GANJA , etc, fucking etc! Do you have any idea how human involvement HAS improved an otherwise gambling species (whatever it might be, in nature there are no guarantees) which was left to the odds (survival of the fittest) AND INSTEAD nurtured it and bred it for particular characteristics and isolated and bred, and backcrossed, and bred, .... that is HARD WORK, and nobody does hard work if there is no return, or appreciation. SOOOOO what the hell kind of point are YOU trying to make man?? i don't believe this idea that breeding cannabis (or any other species) weakens an otherwise vast genetic pool... a plant which by all means was INTRODUCED ACROSS THE PLANET by HUMANS, not nature!!! So what point are you trying to make?? Because it seems like all you're doing is bashing a good man, or to take it further bashing humanity as a whole?!?!?! are you the........

Thanks to GiT for being another voice of REASON. Thank You!

Ok, lets continue....its a bit long so dont fade on me now...

Verdant Green:"if a lucky grower had an old 10 pack of, say, BG C99, or skunk1 or whatever, wouldnt it be better for him to make some seeds when he grew them out rather than not do so? i think to not make seeds at all just because it cant be done perfectly is kind of throwing the baby away with the bath water."

>>Hey Verdant, Did you not understand how genetic erosion occurs? Damn I thought I was pretty clear.
10 seeds from a previous hackjob of a previous hackjob(C99, skunk1,etc..) are already
eroded. They're missing important genes already. These are already not the kind of seeds we wish to have in storage for the future. And youre talking about doing yet another erosion generation to them. ???? Yknow??
Theres a better chance that these 10 'parents' will produce offspring that will have diminished traits. That is not good.
Most of the people that make these hackjobs dont even make 2000 seeds
TOTAL!!!(seednoobtique/speedbay), so,.. they dont even include all the diversity in the
parents they used. What exactly would the point be to use pre-eroded seedlots? Certainly NOT for any kind of future breeding because they are now weakened by erosion and that's not how breeders maintain germplasm, let alone improve it. Theres a drop in the potential for the speed-lots to even produce keepers, with every generation of POOR HANDLING.
I can think of only one reason and that would be to make some FURTHER eroded seeds with the 10 pack in case I had plans to bug out and hole up in a Unibomber shack someday, and stop being in contact with anyone in the real world. Do you plan on dropping out of sight? lol.

Basically, (again) What it comes down to is this: You dont have enough resources -in seed form and in legality-, nor the requisite breeding facilities(open acreage, plus other
controlled environments) to even MAINTAIN germplasm properly, let alone improve it.
I am proposing to have you and others finally acknowledge this, and do your part to stop facilitating the erosion of the remainder of the gene pool, through MINIMIZING sexual
reproductions of the gene pool with insufficient plant counts. If you cant make the seeds properly, dont.

Can you do this? Or are you driven by an addiction to make seeds without the proper
environment?Maybe its just some juvenile PHASE youre going through...Thats the question you need to answer..to yourself.

Tom Hill:"The fact is that germplasm I have spent decades collecting and maintaining stands a better chance today than it did one year ago in regards to its existence in the future."

>>>Your hackjobs are out there more than if youd not released them into the stream, but they are not contributing positively to the overall health of the pool. You have in fact re-released germplasm that was already in the pool, and once may have been genetically distant, and sold it out into the stream of speed hacks. They have already integrated your '14th cousin' genes into their speed hackjobs, and made them 1st cousins to their speed hacked polyhybrids. One more generation of amateur breeding and they will be SIBLINGS. Nothing good came from doing that. come on!

TomHill:"More than 50% of this "gene pool" we have on this site is still likely derived from a very small handful of lines -like 3-4 haha. Putting forward the notion that this IS the
gene pool ALL IN has a 100% probability of having me lmao - it would probably be tripled
with a couple more guys' collections lol."

>>Yea, laugh your ass off man. Like a fool does.. The fact is, sites, -and dabblers like you- that advocate hackjobs by amateurs have integrated nearly the entire globe's useful drug germplasm..- in SHORT ORDER too.
Look at all the land race seed now, that could have been held closer....now its being integrated by know-nothings who are only focused on hybridizing them to their other polyhybrids.
And I feel somewhat responsible for some of this.. You see, I have already gone down the road of EDUCATION of this community...MANY TIMES.... by way of "educating" them that the more genetic distance you have, the more successful you might be with your hybrids. Its exactly like the eXe/feminization..look at what happened from introducing that tool..more hacking; its exactly like The Backcrossing Method. Look what good came from that..more hacking; its like every thing that SHOULD be a carefully employed tool, but it CANT BE EMPLOYED IN THIS POLITICAL CLIMATE; so it becomes nothing more than another knife in the back of cannabis because they just dont have the freedom or the insight to employ these tools properly..... Like handing a 4 year old a loaded shotgun and telling them not to shoot anything with it. They will. You try and EDUCATE, to get them up to speed, and all that comes from it is more erosion. Thats why "education" is NOT key in this community. We need another avenue. Open Pollination only. Until its legal; Its simple enough of an idea for a '4 year olds mentality', and will preserve genetic resources. I know you understand this, and I know you want to sell seeds. Its unfortunate that this is a dilemma for you.

TH:"My point is that you can not use the "it's a numbers game" when it's convenient, then tuck all that back in your pocket again when it suits."

>>>>I dont know what you mean. When did I say it was NOT a numbers game?

Vorsprung:"Doing the best they can under the circumstances they work -- and all with a good attitude - something to take note of."

>>I have taken note many times of typical fully-baked feelgooders with their jah bless BS and careless pothead 'vibe' and that doesnt get ANYTHING done but more gene loss.
The rest of your post(#196) was not worth addressing because we have already addressed the fact that land races are not intact anymore, etc, etc... and you obviously dont understand whats up. Take 10 tokes.

Verdant, Yes it is a better option for you to make one huge batch of your own seeds, store them properly and never release them into the stream, than it is to BUY seeds from a site frequented by careless seedmaking/seed-addicted individuals who ENCOURAGE the repeated sexual reproduction of the gene pool with small populations. Do it and be done with it. You are now set for life, and not involved with future genepool degredation. Good for you, man. In a world Id like to see, you could exchange seeds -WHEN and IF you needed them for growing or breeding- with others who have properly maintained their germplasm through large-scale Open Pollination and Storage.

Kaneh:"So, basicly you're saying that nobody in this planet makes seeds in "right" way? I find that very hard to believe."

>>>>> I bet you do.. I invite you or ANYONE to PROVE a GOOD drug canna seed production company in this world. Actually, you will not be able to do it. There are NO seed production facilities doing the work on a proper scale.
SHOW ME ONE Kaneh. ONE. Dont TELL me about one.. SHOW ME . PROVE IT. You will learn an important lesson in the process of researching it. Do it.

Kaneh:"I don't use clones anymore. I'm not commercial grower, so I can afford to have couple not so good phenos.
It's more fun using seeds and getting lots of different kinds of plants.
Where I'm standing MJ-genepool looks just fine."

>>>This should be made the Pot Newbie's Official Motto. Put it on as your signature so everyone knows that youre ignorant and careless, in case you ever post about breeding cannabis again.
Your "fun" is the second reason why we have a gene pool under attack, and losing.

Vorsprung:"There are 'winners' to be found in 'pollen chuck' seeds. That being said I've grown out a bunch of hay, too... but it's worth it to find the couple superstars."

>>>> I dont doubt it. The First Hybrids were all better than your 2009 "winners". What you need to understand is HOW that happened, and that the possibility of this happening is reduced with every subsequent polyhybridization with small populations. As the parents become MORE AND MORE RELATED, hybrid vigor is LOST and inbreeding is imparted. Do you know what Im saying??????

TH:"Yes, I think my stock stands a better chance of surviving into the future than before
because more numbers will be ran -collectively- than ever before."

>>>> GiT nailed it already. Its called Experimental Error to have your evaluation done in different facilities. There is a place in plant breeding for this kind of approach, but it is bastardized in this setting, and is not effective because the sub-populations become SMALL, expensive and RISKY, then become eroded and fragmented. They dont become eroded in PROFESSIONAL breeding programs.
Tom, your seedlots are already hybridized into the rest of the pool. Shit, they were already FROM THE POOL. You dont have something that isnt already part of the drug gene pool. No.
Your 'works' are not very "survived" either; they are(or will be soon) integrated, fragmented and RELATED to everyone else's. That was done by the same folks you are talking to right now, telling them its OK to do it..so they were HAPPY to do it. And now its done. Education backfiring on Sesame Street.

This deserved a second run.

"We have set a minimum limit of 1,000 plants in each population. This should ensure 99% preservation of the gene pool of monoecious varieties, and 95% of the gene pool of dioecious varieties. A population size of 2,000 for dioecious accessions is required to ensure that 99% of the gene pool will be preserved (Crossa 1993)." From: Report on the maintenance of hemp (Cannabis sativa L.) germplasm accessioned in the Vavilov Research Institute Gene Bank- 1994 by Nikolai Lemeshev, Lyudmila Rumyantseva and Robert C. Clarke"

DID YOU CATCH THAT? DO YOU THINK ITS ALL JUST MY INTUITION? Do you think you know better than these authors? Id like to see you advocate the erosion of hemp to these guys..lol Thank god hemp is out of your peripheries....

spliphy, these big companies you talked about are already there. They already have the gene pool collected and already own patents to keep you from doing anything with "their" genetic sequences when the Time comes. You see? they are planning for it too. While amateurs are crossing the gene pool willy-nilly and having FUN, these fuckers are ready to OWN it all. Are you happy with that? The "fuckers" Im talking about are drug genepool hacks themselves,..they might be your HEROS too, if you knew WHO David Watson is around here. Look into it and get a better picture of what is happening.

DocLeaf:"it doesn't reverse sex with stress or chemicals. "

>>>Bullshit. It "reverses". It may not make viable pollen. Theres a genetic difference.

BKindication:"So how are they ruining the genepool if they are completely gone? And the stock they used for their hackcross is still available."

>>>> Because amateurs dont have the hackjobs adequately backed up. Many buy 10 seeds or less, proceed to make 20-30 seeds or less, and soon thereafter, -when they decide the seeds they made are fucked-, its all dropped and they want another seedlot to kick around. While this is happenng on a huge scale, Meanwhile back at the Ranch,
The Original gene pools are gone too because the Professional seedmakers are really just
other clueless amateurs who have done the same thing. Ultimately what is left from this kind of breeding are only fragments of what WAS. It all should have been left alone.

Jones:"Open pollination favours early maturing plants. A seedline maintained by OP without selection drifts quite a bit. Genes of late maturing plants are lost or at least become uncommon."

>>> This is the same trend that occurs in amateur bedrooms and closets,...
With LOW SELECTION OP, there is a better chance of less genetic erosion and less genetic drifting, than what is happening with hard selection on small populations, over and over and over.
Since there are no real amateur strains, the idea of genetic DRIFT is moot on those. None of their seed introductions have a stable character profile to adhere to in the first place.LOL.
So, any drift is just random and of no consequence. Its the EROSION that takes place at the same time that hurts forever.

..... are you the devil, nvisonary, are you???????????....................??????????????????????

 

[GreenintheThumb]

@ Tom

What link are you talking about? I must have missed it. When you said selection I thought you meant by your hand. Like if you favored a single mom or if you rogued out all your late flowering males and didn't use them as a pollen source. I'm not really sure of what you're doubting either...that there's a better term for what you do, or that landraces were OPed, or that thai will degrade to ruderalis in OP....

@ Jones

Well if you can't flower out your thai before the end of your season maybe you shouldn't be trying to preserve it? IMO these large nice OP gardens would most likely been under glass.

How strong of a push do you think OP gives to early maturation? If it's such a potent effect why isn't everyone using it to make super fast flowering haze? If it's such an effect why were the long flowering landraces maintained in OP?

@ SOTF

If it breeds true then how important were your selections?

And saying that all cannabis is related isn't a naive statement at all. Get real. How many lines have skunk in them? Shit brother, you go on to say there's many distinct SPECIES of cannabis? Do you understand the words coming out of your mouth? I'd love to see some distinct species of cannabis Post them with the pictures of the 3 lb per light garden. You obviously don't understand the basics of inheritance, meiosis, and the processes involved in erosion. Tell me more about the "half" of genes that are lost in every new cross. But for some reason you have the nerve to come in here and tell us all talk of these subjects is, how did you put it, "blah blah blah."

 

[SOTF420]

Cannabis Sativa, Cannabis Indica, Cannabis Ruderalis, Cannabis Chinensis, and Cannabis Gigantea. Highly debated topic. These are all represented by many quite variable and quite distinctive sub-species & varieties.

Big can of worms, or pot should I say.

Or maybe you are one of those people that claim everything is Cannabis Sativa. lol

As far as my selections went with the tooth, as similiar as the plants were there of course are still some nuances and variables in individuals and it definitely is not a purebreed plant but a backcrossed x3 or x4 hybrid as you already know. Different but predictable phenotypes occur even in the most stable strains because it is literally impossible to not have variations in any population of seed plants due to the genetic lottery of seed creation no matter how precise your methods are. This is true in any strain considered to be a stable and true breeding line, like Skunk #1 or Northern Lights for that matter. The parents I chose were very different from each other to hopefully allow for even more variation in the offspring compared to the originals and to find new combinations of any dormant genes. Suprisingly, those inbred x 1 seeds from visually distinct Sweet Tooth parents grow out nearly clone like Sweet Tooth plants with little variation and are very true to the original "majority" population plants in the original breeder packs from Spice of Life, nearly all are very sickly sweet & grapefruity with the typical easily recognized sweet tooth plant characteristics, trichome production is outstanding. Which is why I consider it to be quite "true breeding" to the originals they were made from. I do have circa 2002 - 2003 originals in a sealed pack or so as well I'm saving for a rainy day.

This stability in offspring is only because Steve backcrossed it to the SPG mother so much and had a fantastic selection ability I think. He did also choose exactly what he was looking for from huge populations of plants which according to you and others is the RIGHT way to do it. Results all agree with that in this case and that being said eventually when grown out by others down the road to make new seeds most of the real genetic selection work is already done and it does not take a rocket scientist to then find suitable parents in a few packs of seeds but hey that's what backcrossing is for right. I don't claim to be an expert in anything other than common sense, what I see with my own eyes, & Sweet Tooth. Everything else is like white noise.

 

[Jones]

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[Tom Hill]

http://crop.scijournals.org/cgi/content/full/44/6/2246

I just browsed over it, but noted they are harvesting equal numbers of seed from the individuals in the population (and maybe discussing different mating methods). This is designed to minimize the selection that occurs. Genetics and environment are doing the selection in an OP. There is no doubt, if you OP a line selection occurs. Intergenotypic competition insures this. There are strategies to minimize this, the pollen mix is just one.

Picture this, Bob has 100 plants and Jim has 100 plants. Bob lets pollen fly and harvests all seed. Jim collects equal amounts of pollen from his males, pollinates, and harvest equal numbers of seed from each individual. Bob had early pollen grabbing the lions share of matings, and large phenotypes in his environment contributing the lions share of seed. More selection has occurred in Bobs crop -he has shifted genotypic frequencies more- but Jim minimized that in his crop. There are ways to maximize our conservation efforts regardless of genetics and environment. That's all I was saying. -T

 

[SOTF420]

Tom, any reason in a hybrid seed crop you would not want to choose the earliest flowering males to try to focus on the fastest flowering genes possible in that population?

 

[GreenintheThumb]

Jones
No landraces were maintained without any kind of selection. If so they'd be feral and not really landraces. Unless they were grown for sinsemilla, they were maintained by OP.


Sotf- Tom fears linkage with many undesirable traits.
And I noticed that all of those sub-species are still cannabis. Wake me up when you post pictures of a different species of cannabis or when you find the 3 lb / light pictures. In case you didn't know it even hemp is the same species as cannabis. So how many "strains" in the drug pool are explicitly only cannabis indica and haven't been hybridized? You're not really proving your point. And certainly continuously backcrossing a line to a single individual isn't the best way to breed cannabis. And when you run big numbers it's best to keep larger populations, whittling down 100 seeds to one father and then dusting it on every clone you have isn't the best method of action. How many males has steve used in his whole career? 4? 5? How many of his "strains" are half-sibs with his other "strains"? Anyway I don't think you have much to say or much to argue. Certainly plenty to learn tho.

Tom- Thanks for clarifying your point.

 

[spliphy]

Pure Gold...eugenegreen

 

[englishrick]

http://crop.scijournals.org/cgi/content/full/44/6/2246

I just browsed over it, but noted they are harvesting equal numbers of seed from the individuals in the population (and maybe discussing different mating methods). This is designed to minimize the selection that occurs. Genetics and environment are doing the selection in an OP. There is no doubt, if you OP a line selection occurs. Intergenotypic competition insures this. There are strategies to minimize this, the pollen mix is just one.

Picture this, Bob has 100 plants and Jim has 100 plants. Bob lets pollen fly and harvests all seed. Jim collects equal amounts of pollen from his males, pollinates, and harvest equal numbers of seed from each individual. Bob had early pollen grabbing the lions share of matings, and large phenotypes in his environment contributing the lions share of seed. More selection has occurred in Bobs crop but Jim minimized that selection in his. There are ways to maximize our conservation efforts regardless of genetics and environment. That's all I was saying. -T

id say selection is the most imidiate force behind expreshion,,,,,you change the selection parameters "ie change the Enviroment" you change the line,,,,,,OP is a selection parameter in itself,,,,,,OP will have a massive effect on expreshion imo!!!,,,

Tareget Enviroments everything to me,,,,but this brings me back to Epigenetics,,an thats another thread

 

[SOTF420]

Sotf- Tom fears linkage with many undesirable traits.
And I noticed that all of those sub-species are still cannabis. Wake me up when you post pictures of a different species of cannabis or when you find the 3 lb / light pictures. In case you didn't know it even hemp is the same species as cannabis. So how many "strains" in the drug pool are explicitly only cannabis indica and haven't been hybridized? You're not really proving your point. And certainly continuously backcrossing a line to a single individual isn't the best way to breed cannabis. And when you run big numbers it's best to keep larger populations, whittling down 100 seeds to one father and then dusting it on every clone you have isn't the best method of action. How many males has steve used in his whole career? 4? 5? How many of his "strains" are half-sibs with his other "strains"? Anyway I don't think you have much to say or much to argue. Certainly plenty to learn tho.

Thank you for speaking for Tom, I did not realize he had a mini-me. haha

Anyways, the family or genus of Cannabis is represented by several distinct species within it, those all comprised of many sub-species occuring alover the world and bred into the various strains we have today but many if not all do exist in their pure forms where they came from. If you want to play on words feel free I am not going to bang my head on the wall here trying to convince you that everything is not Cannabis Sativa or Indica, but it's not. Anyone with any real knowledge of plant breeding & history would know that.

The close to 3/lb a light guy is not me and I never claimed it was. I did however post a link in the Spice of Life seeds thread to the guy growing the Swt #4 who seems to really have the strain dialed in and is getting huge yields on big plants. Feel free to go research because I do believe it's a solid claim and he seems to be an expert grower. His stock not suprisingly came from around the same time mine did of the #4.

As far as Breeder Steve goes, I can't tell lately if you are a fan of his work or a naysayer. All I know is that he did something right despite what anyone might say. Selection is ultra important and his strains & their overall quality & predictability reflects that. Maybe everyone else has it wrong when breeding to isolate traits? I don't think Steve bred for preservation of a broad range of genetics or to preserve long flowering individuals lol I think his goal was to make kick ass pot that was like the individuals he isolated and he did a damn fine job at that which is more than I can say for most breeders reworking his stuff and calling it cute new names. Everyone growing Shishkaberry, Sweet Tooth, Blockhead (which you love) and many others can't all be wrong. Why does Sweet Tooth breed so true to the originals when incrossed? Pure luck?