What Male to use in a cross?

[GreenintheThumb]

Hey, there's already enough Wangs in this thread

"The primary goal of a germplasm preservation project is the conservation of the entire gene pool. It is very important that the population size be large enough to ensure that nearly all of the genes within the gene pool are reproduced in the resultant seed. We have set a minimum limit of 1,000 plants in each population. This should ensure 99% preservation of the gene pool of monoecious varieties, and 95% of the gene pool of dioecious varieties. A population size of 2,000 for dioecious accessions is required to ensure that 99% of the gene pool will be preserved (Crossa 1993)." From: Report on the maintenance of hemp (Cannabis sativa L.) germplasm accessioned in the Vavilov Research Institute Gene Bank- 1994

by Nikolai Lemeshev, Lyudmila Rumyantseva and Robert C. Clarke

Cool article btw.

 

[spliphy]

bigger and better seed companies

bigger and better seed companies

What male to use?

depends....

for diversity use many, many males...

However, if the seed industry was larger, we would have the companies' agents all over the world looking for uniqueness to meet customer demand also, they would protect their investment by keeping a healthy stock so you would not need to breed for diversity then....you could be like a heirloom tomato grower or whatever

 

[spliphy]

chumming the waters somewhere else?

chumming the waters somewhere else?

I am going on a 2 day fishing trip,
Fish On!! later

sorry, couldn't resist :^)

 

[englishrick]

tom,,,greeninthethumb,,,just tell me to shut-up if you want i dont mind

but please answer this,,,,

what are we supposed to do when toms numbers game turns up 1 amazing female clone but no males or sibling seeds to help with incrossing,,,,take OGkush for example or Cheese maybe,,,how are we supposed to deal with presevation then,???,,,,,,,,i would like to make seeds and capture the unique quality`s of these inderviduals,,,,,please dont tell me im doing a bad thing by trying my best, i could improve

 

[GreenintheThumb]

Rick both of the examples you told us are widely circulated, very popular clones. We don't really have to worry about preserving those individuals because they're so popular. The best way to keep them around is in their current form, however, if tough times really come upon us all and they're lost it wouldn't be a bad thing to have several hundred s1s laying around. My suggest is to make more s1s than you and all your buddies could ever use and stop there.

 

[DocLeaf]

Breeders thus far have failed to make Cheese s1. Many ppl have tried,, still havent seen any results.

RE: Which male to use...

We recently used this male in a cross at home... it was chosen because it comes from nice stock,, had a nice structure,, and gave some resin early on.

 

[GreenintheThumb]

What do you mean by that statement? All the pollen was sterile or what? I'm 90% sure I've read about people making s1s, they were just shit; big surprise. Regardless, cheese s1s shouldn't be any real breeders endgame. They could be useful for preservation's sake or as a piece of a program...not much else.

 

[DocLeaf]

What do you mean by that statement? All the pollen was sterile or what? I'm 90% sure I've read about people making s1s, they were just shit; big surprise.

Something to do with 'true-breeding' or something,, it doesn't reverse sex with stress or chemicals.

Most Cheese crosses however will reverse easy... like BBCheese did.
The Kachina (Cheese x TW) was also unstable when we made the S1.

Rick. Cheese is a homogeneous variety,, these ends ppl use it to make excellent hybrids.

Hope this helps

 

[GreenintheThumb]

I think some fly by night "seedbank" made cheese s1s a long time ago, several years. And I thought they weren't very homogeneous or seemingly desirable. Some found it surprising because supposedly the clone comes from pure stock. I also think Rick himself has made s1s...

Not sure what you mean by the "true breeding" statement so I'll assume it's the "or something."

 

[englishrick]

thanks for replying Greeninthethumb,,,i apreceate that i personly cant take on a propper breeding project with "enough" males and females to make any1 happy........BUT males are erelavent when the source is a female clone anyways,,,,,,,,, i think SELFING is something us closet hacks could be good at,,,thats why i choose SELFING as MY main tool insted of many many males,,,,,is this wrong thinking??????

ive been working on this project for nearly a year,,,i made some mistakes early in the project and i had to scrap my personal S1 cheese seedbatch,,,,stupid me yealded my seeds from the same plant i reverced with STS,,,so i hit the reset button an i scraped them seeds,,,,,very embarrasing!,,luckily i didnt post them out and open the thrad the min i made them,,,,,i was ready,,,,an i would have got laughed at!!,,,,,,,,, but luckliy i got my friend T to let me hit 1 of his cheese clones with the polen i collected,,,,so i got this pennybag with 1 of the corners filled with seeds from T,,,,they look smallish in size compared to the 1s i did myself, but atleast the clone T polinated was un-tainted,,hopefuuly T`s seeds dont get put in the bin like the last lot,,,,2nd time lucky

i still need to put the picks up to prove to everyone what ive done so far with my cheese project,,,but i dont need to prove anything to myself ,so being a show-off aint top priority at the min,,,good breeding is!,,ive allready made 1 stupid mistake,,i dont fancy another public embarrasment,,,,ive been refusing to put the picks up because i dont feel prepared to take on the BS im gona get for my breeding practice and begginer mistakes, i admit i do make big mistakes, and scrapping whole lines is allways an option to me,,,once peeps see my picks its gona cause a shitstorm for me, im sure!!!!!,,, ,,,you know what im like G,,its hard for me to stop gibberjabbing,,, im defo not ready yet to talk like i know something,,,i refuse to post my pics untill i truly know what i just did,,,,,an i refuse to send any seed out untill everyone 90% of peeps agree with my methods,,,,everyone sill hates selfing as a breeding tool,,,,,,tom is the 1 who pulled me outa the dirt after i got a bashing for bing into SELFING

ive got 50 s1 cheese going at the mo, from what i can see they mostly look like an old Sk1 with a gahni plant structure ,,,varying leaf shapes mostly gani shapes allround,,,,most plants have a ghani stem structure too,,,

im guessing that what im seeing is a repersentation of what is Homozygote in the cheese clone...........i feel like im doing genomic testing for Homozygote genepairs,,,,,,but what i want is probbly poly-generic!,,,ive got a feelin that the genes im looking to preserve inparticular might be from heterozygote genepairs,,,,whatdo you think greeninthethumb,,,how do i capture polygeneric traits into a seedline when the only source of genome is a female clone?,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,im planning on S1 x S1 ,,,,and RevercedBackcrossing to acomplish my goals

what do you think?

am i stll makin mistakes and missunderstanding the siuation,,,,,i can hanndle it if i need to re-think my whole project,,,im ready for big changes

 

[englishrick]

emagine if all seed breeders only sold fibl seeds or "SIBL" seeds "as im calling them lately",,,

i emagine if them SIBLseeds had stress tested parents,,,,that would stop "spontanious revercal",,,,,it would also be difficult for a low grade closethack`s to make seeds !!,,,,,,

 

[GreenintheThumb]

Just make the s1s and save them. Like I said, plenty of people have the cheese, it's not going anywhere. I doubt you have the space and time to create a good cheese seed release but you could save all the genes for future selections if it's legalized or if everyone loses the cut...which i doubt will ever happen.

 

[englishrick]

sounds like your sayin that makin S1`s is good no matter who you are from HACK to PRO to x1000plantbreeder,,,that IS in contrast to what nVishion is saying "i think"....but i agree with you greeninthethumb,,,,i say lets all make S1`s from our prize clones,,,,

please answer this,,,,

what is the difference between S1 and normal XY seeds?? [becieds the fact that XX is all female an XY is both male and female]........what actualy happens when we take the males OUT of the breeding equation????,,,,by repeted selfing are we moving towards homozygote genes?,,,,,

 

[GreenintheThumb]

sounds like your sayin that makin S1`s is good no matter who you are from HACK to PRO to x1000plantbreeder,,,that IS in contrast to what nVishion is saying "i think"....but i agree with you greeninthethumb,,,,i say lets all make S1`s from our prize clones,,,,

I suppose it's good from a preservation point of view. But like I said I don't think it's a big deal because so many people have these clones in so many clandestine locations. Those genotypes are relatively safe IMO.

I think S1s are EASY for anyone to do from hack to pro. You could train a monkey to do it. Like I said they're not a solution to much; they're a method of reproduction that CAN have a very useful part of a excellent breeding program. I don't think many people are using them in this way FWIW, most people just make s1s and charge a lot for them.

please answer this,,,,

what is the difference between S1 and normal XY seeds?? [becieds the fact that XX is all female an XY is both male and female]

Nothing. [edit: can't figure out why these are bold, try to ignore it]

........what actualy happens when we take the males OUT of the breeding equation????

Nothing.

,,,,by repeted selfing are we moving towards homozygote genes?,,,,,

With proper selection, yes. Selfing is THE MOST narrow and extreme form of inbreeding. It's much more powerful than even full sib matings. When your entire population only has the genes of a single individual, well, that's as far as we can push it. You'll swiftly find the vigor and health move out of your line with continuous selfing. Keep in mind this is an outcrossing species that ideally wants to be maintained in fields not with a single genetic donor. But like I said it's a useful tool in many situations, Sam made his chemovars by continuously selfing the outliers.

 

[englishrick]

thankyou for the reply,,,,your a grate man

proper selection, yes. Selfing is THE MOST narrow and extreme form of inbreeding. It's much more powerful than even full sib matings. When your entire population only has the genes of a single individual, well, that's as far as we can push it. You'll swiftly find the vigor and health move out of your line with continuous selfing.[/B]

the reason why i talk about selfing in this thread is beacuse Nvishion seems to be saying "OPENPOLINATE with x1000 or its gameover you aint a propper breeder driven by presevation",,,,,nahhhhhh no way,,,if i found the BEST female clone out of 1,000,000 hack hybrid growrooms, id rather self that clone than hit it with a mixbag made from x100 males,,,,,fuk that,,,am i right?

whats the deal with S2 x S1......or S2 x S3,,,,,,will this increese vigor in the line?

 

[GreenintheThumb]

The reason you talk about selfing is because you've already used it and want someone to tell you you're doing everything right. No one's going to tell you that. And you shouldn't try to tell Nvisionary much of anything. If you could understand how rudimentary the questions you're asking are, you would be too ashamed to post here again or at least stop talking like you could ever release something that anyone would be interested in. And you spell so bad you're shit out of luck on the new nick front

Selecting the best outlier individual from a huge population is the antithesis of preservation. It's as strong a movement you can make in the OTHER direction. It has nothing to do with nvisionary's OP suggestions.

And selfing that individual would probably not get you any closer to releasing a "true to clone" seedlot.

You STILL don't understand the basics of inheritance, meiosis or heterosis. If you did you wouldn't ask if backcrossing S1s would increase vigor. Of course it won't.

 

[BKindication]

amateurs dont preserve jack shit. none of the plants or "strains" excuse me, are even kept by anyone.

In the last 20 years, 99% of the "strains" amateurs have made are now completely gone. Sound like amateurs are trying to preserve genetics? yea.

So how are they ruining the genepool if they are completely gone? And the stock they used for their hackcross is still available.

 

[englishrick]

The reason you talk about selfing is because you've already used it and want someone to tell you you're doing everything right. No one's going to tell you that. And you shouldn't try to tell Nvisionary much of anything. If you could understand how rudimentary the questions you're asking are, you would be too ashamed to post here again or at least stop talking like you could ever release something that anyone would be interested in. And you spell so bad you're shit out of luck on the new nick front

Selecting the best outlier individual from a huge population is the antithesis of preservation. It's as strong a movement you can make in the OTHER direction. It has nothing to do with nvisionary's OP suggestions.

And selfing that individual would probably not get you any closer to releasing a "true to clone" seedlot.

You STILL don't understand the basics of inheritance, meiosis or heterosis. If you did you wouldn't ask if backcrossing S1s would increase vigor. Of course it won't.

NO ,,,,,selfing is just 1 side of the coin, imo its a very important side too!!,,,,from what i can tell Nvishion is saying "use ALL males from a full sib line",,,,,,,,but NONE of us know what actualy happens when we use NO males,,,,honestly G, its the blind leading the blind!!


Nvishion is oviously highly educated and experenced,, YES!!,,,,but i think things are still up for debate,,,,,,its not cut and dry OP yet,,,,


............................................................................................


you said,,,,,

Selecting the best outlier individual from a huge population is the antithesis of preservation. It's as strong a movement you can make in the OTHER direction. It has nothing to do with nvisionary's OP suggestions.

there is a company in the UK called GW PHARMA ,they make sativex,,,,GW PHARMA hold many purelines ,,Robbert Clarke sold them the source genomes in pure form,,,,,,he prepared all the lines via selfing,,,,NOT OP!!!!,,,,, why NOT OP????,,,,,,,,,from imported canna seed too, Robbert Clarke blended the ratios of THC, CBD,CBN!!,,,,,,,purelines created via selfing!!,,,,,,GW PHARMA has a real licence for growing canna now,,x1000 aint mutch to them,,,,,,,why aint they openpolinating too,,,,,lets buy Nvishon a flight ticket quick

imo,, the best outlier indervidual is the 1 that expresses the most amount of desired traits within the Target Enviroment,,,the best clone outa 1,000,000 should be utalized!!


ps,,
my spelling is more than bad G,,,,most peeps can tell ME from my spelling,,,,seriously GreeninTheThumb this is my only username,,,^^^doc aint interested too mutch in selfing, but selfing is something i would LOVE to understand fully [i try big-time too],,,please dont sujest im a lier,,,loads of peeps here can vouch for me as an indervidual,,,,im not a flybynight dude,,,,2nd nick`s all over the place and im the ghost,,,lol,,,,get some balls lads,,,make multiple post on your own usernames,,,comon peeps, dont be internet shitbags,

 

[URUK]

there is a company in the UK called GW PHARMA ,they make sativex,,,,GW PHARMA hold many purelines ,,Robbert Clarke sold them the source genomes in pure form,,,,,,he prepared all the lines via selfing,,,,NOT OP!!!!,,,,, why NOT OP????,,,,,,,,,from imported canna seed too, Robbert Clarke blended the ratios of THC, CBD,CBN!!,,,,,,,purelines created via selfing!!,,,,,,GW PHARMA has a real licence for growing canna now,,x1000 aint mutch to them,,

Rick,

with regards to GW Pharma, I was under the impression their cultivars where Skunk No 1 and provided by HortaPharm BV. they might well of selfed these and then selected for Chemotypes for various things, I believe they hold clones of the various Chemotypes and not "pure" lines.

Regards

 

[Jones]

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