Vegan Organics with Professor Matt Rize

[spurr]

spurr, thanks for the citric acid stuff, im going to start a thread and will repost it there.

Sounds good, it would get lost here you're right. FWIW, I use citric acid I buy from a wine and beer brewing shop to drop water pH from 6.00 to 6.10. Dropping pH to that range allows me to add a decent amount of critic acid which is my goal.

I don't use citric acid to drop pH but it's a side effect of using it to increase the Krebs cycle, organic matter mineralization and P anion solubility in rhizosphere and soil solution. As has been discussed elsewhere, for organics a water pH from 5.5 to 7.5 is fine, even up to 8 is OK, and water pH has very, very little effect upon pH of media (rhizosphere and soil solution). The alkalinity of water is what has much greater effect upon pH of the media than the pH of water; and roots/microbes have a great effect upon pH of rhizosphere and soil solution.

Water with high alkalinity has pH over 7 but water with pH over 7 doesn't necessarily mean high alkalinity.

In hydro with chems water pH is much more of a concern, as well as alkalinity and level of ammonicial N (ex. ammonium, which makes roots release acidic H+ protons lowering pH) and nitrate (which makes roots release basic bicarbonates increasing pH).

On the topic of ammonicial N, that is one reason why fungal rich media has lower pH. Because fungal rich media often has greater pools of ammonicial N than does bacterial rich media; thus when roots take in the ammonicial N (mostly as ammonium, NH4+) they release acidic H+ protons. Bacterial rich media often has greater pools of nitrates (NO3-); thus when roots take in the nitrate N they release basic bicarbonates increasing pH.

P.S. I have other papers on the topic of critic acid I can post in your thread you will start.

 

[Microbeman]

This will also be my last post in this thread unless Mr Rize chooses to answer. Matt Rize purposely avoids answering any legitimate questions/challenges and instead replies to non-challenging comments with childish attempts at levity or savage criticism. I am overjoyed I do not teach at OU if what Matt Rize advocates is part of their curriculum and I'm sure that Spurr concurrs.

 

[DARC MIND]

I really don't like getting people fired, but, maybe someone from San Fran should go by the place where Matt and Kyle "teach" and tell the people running the "school" the truth: veganics is BS and it's neither 100% organic nor 100% vegan. Matt claims Kyle Kushman teaches "OU"[1], and Matt seems to infer he does too, which I can only assume means "Oaksterdam University"[2]. ****
That "university" is simply a money making scheme and I hope when the U.S. Feds start cracking down of 'for profit schools' (e.g. online universes) they also crack down on that so-called university. What a joke! Some of us should get into the class and then teach the teachers, making them look like the fools they appear to be!

It gets me mad that people looking to learn will get taken in by this BS, unaware of it's BS...sad, and they profess to care about medical patients, yeah right!..***

i agree 100% on oaks and this veganics, its sad to see many dont take advantage of this web of information we so openly share on these boards.

 

[Matt Rize]

It is sad, but not surprising

It is sad, but not surprising

...its sad to see many dont take advantage of this web of information we so openly share on these boards.

Not surprising at all based on my experience here.

To the other guy quoting prices wherever he lives (did not say): yeah, prohibition is a bitch, but you seem to be profiting off of it well. come to nor cal, and work with medical dispensaries, and try to get that. cha

To the other guy who researched the Biocanna line: great work. i have had zero time to follow those links (teaching and harvesting same day, literally), and am with holding judgement for now.
Patience is a virtue, you do not get a quick reply because your post is worth some time.

I never claimed the biocanna's website is up to par, and agree that the pitch is mostly a load of bs.

Leave if you want, that is no biggie. I thank you for contributing. I'm sitting back waiting for yall to catch a proper buzz and chill so I can lay out my (meaning unique to me) method of INDOOR PLANT BASED HORTICULTURE.

post edit: i teach indoor, outdoor, hash, and cooking classes at ou. i do not teach vegan organics at ou.

 

[Microbeman]

unless Mr Rize chooses to answer

with holding judgement for now.

Time will tell. For now my recommendation stands. DO NOT USE THE STUFF. (unless growing chemically)

 

[Carl Carlson]

I'm surprised that Matt cut and pasted this stuff without removing all references to BioCanna's Bio Terra Plus.

http://bio.canna-uk.com/bio/products_btp_1.php

Bio Terra Plus has been pre-fertilized with certified, organic ingredients such as bone meal, bat guano and a variety of trace elements from natural sources.
​

 

[DARC MIND]

Originally Posted by DARC MIND
"i agree 100% on oaks and this veganics, its sad to see many dont take advantage of this web of information we so openly share on these boards."
Originally Posted by Matt Rize
Not surprising at all based on my experience here.

by web of information i met the Internet,
ur experience here has nothing to do with "the fact" that everything u claim to teach: indoor,outdoor,hash,cooking, can be easily obtained with a push of the finger, some passion, then mastered w/ trail and error.
not surprising is the fact u recommend products and claim ther vegan, with out proper research.
witch again was shared/exposed on these boards with simple finger pushing.

 

[Matt Rize]

Oh back to semantics...

Oh back to semantics...

im not surprise with the above quote as well, being the fact u recommend products and claim ther vegan, with out proper research.
witch again was shared/exposed on these boards with simple finger pushing.

For one, your spelling sucks. But no hate here, maybe English is your second language.

Secondly, I never claim to define vegan, but I do claim that vegan can have slightly different "rules" depending (as posted earlier). If I go down on my girl, am I still a vegan? lol

My entire point is that using lots of poop is not needed. A common belief on this website, as I have witnessed from jay. And I have the feeling that many of you agree with this plant based organics idea.
Yet you refuse to acknowledge that we are on the same team, after the same results, taking our unique paths to enlightenment.

So: back to PLANT BASED NUTRITION

 

[MrFista]

<= spinner

You are the most plastic false misinformed transparent fool I've come across in a long time. Please continue digging your own hole, it amazes me you haven't slunk off with your tail between your legs yet.

Obviously you are highly delusional as well.

 

[DARC MIND]

as for spelling,im no professor so ull have to bare with me ther
& i and i, appolagizes if it seems ive teamd againts u
(i think most of my post were constructive and somewhat helpfull)
i tend to overstating the obvious when im blown
"If I go down on my girl, am I still a vegan? lol"
depends, does she have a flower or messy torta down ther =)

 

[spurr]

@ VG,

Below is a good article from Greenhouse Grower about P and plant growth. It covers what I wrote about in more detail, such as Fe making soluble P anions insoluble (not bio-available to plant roots) and low movement of insoluble P anions within soil solution.

I think you read my other thread I wrote elsewhere ("Tissue nutrient analysis of Cannabis = rethinking Lucas and N-P-K-Mg-Ca-S") providing lots of cannabis tissue analysis and references about why lower levels of P is good for cannabis. And that the very high levels of P given to cannabis is silly and not helpful. This article covers these topics well. For my ongoing tests using chem ferts with compost teas and microbial rich inputs (using a microscope to see the effects upon microbes) I keep P level below 50 ppm all the time, but most cannabis ferts, ex. Lucas formula, provides P over 100 ppm!

High P means greater plant stretch (internodal length) and less root growth (root to shoot ratio), along with other potential problems. This is why boosting P during pre-flowering isn't wise IMO.

In the quote below the author discusses what happens to P anions in rhizosphere and soil solution, however, we as cannabis growers tend to provide much more Fe than greenhouse growers not growing cannabis. Thus Fe has greater impact upon making soluble P anions insoluble. As well as the effects of media particles making P anions insoluble (binding to them, but not in terms of anion exchange capacity). This is why I think adding citric acid is wise because it prevents/reduces Fe and media particles from making P anions insoluble.


"An Eye On Phosoporus Nutrition: Understanding how phosphorus acts in soil and in the plant will help you regulate vegetable transplant growth."
By Shiv Reddy; September 2010

http://www.greenhousegrower.com/magazine/?storyid=3753

Isn’t Phosphorus A Starter Fertilizer?

Phosphorus as a starter-fertilizer concept seems to have come from professional cousins to vegetable transplant growers: field farmers. In the field, high-phosphorus fertilizers are applied at the start of planting and are indeed useful there. Why? Most mineral soils have aluminum and iron. Aluminum and iron react with phosphorus and precipitate and render most of the applied phosphorus insoluble and not available to the plants immediately. A great portion of the applied phosphorus ends up fixed by these soils. High levels of phosphorus are thus needed to satisfy the soil and then have some available for the plants.

Also, early plantings in cool spring weather experience phosphorus deficiency: You may have seen purpling of leaves. In cold temperatures, phosphorus solubility decreases and phosphorus moves less in the soil. Plant root growth is also slow. To cope with these conditions, farmers apply high rates of phosphorus as a starter fertilizer, so at least some of it is accessible to the small root system of young plants.

But vegetable transplants are not grown in mineral soils or in cold temperatures. Vegetable transplants are grown in soilless, peat-lite mixes and in temperature-controlled greenhouses. Peat or other components of mixes contain little aluminum and iron. Whatever phosphorus you apply in these conditions is immediately available to the plants. High phosphorus levels, as in field farming, are not needed for growing in peat mixes, either at the start or later.

For anyone who wants to read the thread I wrote "Tissue nutrient analysis of Cannabis = rethinking Lucas and N-P-K-Mg-Ca-S" I uploaded here: (link) and the password to decrypt the file is "references" (without quotes). The file host is in Russia and doesn't require Javascript, etc., thus it's more anonymous IP wise than a U.S.file host.

 

[spurr]

@ Carl Carlson,

Please see my post above this one ^^^. I read your thread about P levels and cannabis tissue testing a while ago, and I used the same study you posted to write my own thread on the topic but I also found a few other cannabis tissue tests I believe you did not find, with other info about why lower P is good, etc. I think you may find my thread helpful as an adjunct to your thread here at ICmag.

 

[Microbeman]

Where is the new thread? Spurr, I've probably told you this before but some informal research I did showed that high levels of soluble P promoted the growth of powdery mildew in cannabis, hydrangeas, grapes and roses. It could not be called conclusive but it gave me a good trending indication.

 

[Yankee Grower]

as for spelling,im no professor so ull have to bare with me ther
& i and i, appolagizes if it seems ive teamd againts u
(i think most of my post were constructive and somewhat helpfull)
i tend to overstating the obvious when im blown
"If I go down on my girl, am I still a vegan? lol"
depends, does she have a flower or messy torta down ther =)

LOL...who cares if DARC MIND can spell or not...for me when it comes down to info he's one of the peeps I respect here like CC, Jay, MrFista, MM, Spurr et al. even if we don't agree at times.

 

[spurr]

MM wrote:
Where is the new thread? Spurr, I've probably told you this before but some informal research I did showed that high levels of soluble P promoted the growth of powdery mildew in cannabis, hydrangeas, grapes and roses. It could not be called conclusive but it gave me a good trending indication.

VG wrote he will start a new thread, he is going to copy some of my posts from this thread into his new thread. He hasn't made his thread yet I believe.

I was unaware of your findings about high P promoting growth of PM, good to know. I think I have read some information about P promoting growth of other microscopic fungi too. I'll try to dig it up. I know that higher P levels promotes growth of mycelium and fruit bodies of a few types of edible fungi perfecti such as shiitake, button, p.cubensis (shrooms), etc.

Many lower fungi imperfecti (ex. AM fungi) exude oxalate acid (as do roots) which solublizes P from organic matter. I am pretty sure many microscopic fungi imperfecti are good at solublizing P which seems to indicate the use P well.

 

[spurr]

@ MM,

Below is an article I wrote a while ago about phosphITEs ([FONT=Times New Roman, serif]phosphorous acid (H3PO3))[/FONT] vs. phosphATEs ([FONT=Times New Roman, serif]phosphoric acid (H3PO4)[/FONT]; i.e. phosphorus nutrition). Phosphites are systemic fungicides that offer little P nutrition to plants except after slow conversion by microbes. Application of phosphites as folair spray will prevent PM, but because it is a systemic fungicide it will also greatly hinder AM fungi infection of roots.

The sad part is many cannabis fertilizer companies are selling phosphite products as P boosters! Yet more BS and harmful info/products from cannabis fert companies. There needs to be serious regulation of the BS sold and spewed by cannabis fertilizer companies.

"Phosphite: What companies aren't telling you.
What phosphites will and will not do for a plant; the good and bad."
https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=187090​

 

[Yankee Grower]

Where is the new thread? Spurr, I've probably told you this before but some informal research I did showed that high levels of soluble P promoted the growth of powdery mildew in cannabis, hydrangeas, grapes and roses. It could not be called conclusive but it gave me a good trending indication.

PM is interesting but have not heard the soluble P thing. That's something I'd like to explore especially with Spurr saying P is good for shroom growth in general. I think the whole PM thing is a bit more complicated than that though...high levels of Ca in plant tissue is important for starters...and as for Ca you'll find the ions concentrated more in the leaf edges and tips.

One trick I learned, which is not 'organic' but still microlife friendly, is large scale food growers using MAP (Mono-ammonium Phosphate) then combining with dextrose...the lactobacillus go crazy fueled by the dextrose binding up the P in the soil for future use. The worms don't have a problem with this method either. Using DAP (Di-ammonium phosphate) is not an acceptable replacement for MAP and actually causes problems...it's not microlife friendly regardless of how you use it.

So maybe if lots of soluble P in the medium just add some dextrose or a vibrant lactobacillus culture with enough food in the medium for them to live off of and should take care of any excess soluble P?

 

[spurr]

MAP can be used to increase growth of many higher fungi perfecti like shiitake (dunking logs in MAP infused water), shrooms (P.cubensis), etc. MAP is used in agar mixes and nutrient broths (i.e. liquid culture) for P nutrition of P.cubensis and other fruit body producing fungi. However, I am not following your line of reasoning for mentioning Ca, could you elaborate please?

 

[Microbeman]

I am pretty sure many microscopic fungi imperfecti are good at solublizing P which seems to indicate the use P well.

This could account for some informal reports I've had from serious compost tea users (with microscopes) who report a very healthy cannabis plant/yield from using ACT with high fungal hyphae volumes. When I have time I'll source and email a photo that will impress.

 

[spurr]

So maybe if lots of soluble P in the medium just add some dextrose or a vibrant lactobacillus culture with enough food in the medium for them to live off of and should take care of any excess soluble P?

Sounds like an interesting idea for sure. However, if excess soluble P is a concern then flushing media with water will remove lots of soluble P because they are anions; that might be the easiest and most efficient method. Most media has low AEC (Anion Exchange Capacity) and that is why phosphorous pollution of ground water is a major problem (same for nitrate and nitrites).

The other issue is soluble P anions are readily taken up by roots until the plant self-regulates the uptake (i.e. reduces uptake) once a critical level of amino acids form in the phloem. What I mean is by the time LactoB has a chance to bind up P anions the roots have probably already taken in a good amount of P, so it might not work fast enough. Adding Fe to fertigation water is also a way to make soluble P anions insoluble; adding Al to fertigation water is another method but that can lower media pH.