Organics round 2
- Thread starter Bmac1
- Start date
I want to chime in about the leaves...and defoliation in general.
You have to think of the leaves as being the power cells of the plant. They absorb light, and are the key to retained nutrition within the plant itself. Photosynthesis, using light to convert water and co2 into starches and sugars which feed the plant. The more light absorbed, the more the plant is going to be able to utilize nutrition. Think of NPK and minerals as the material needed to create chlorophyll and aid in cell reproduction, but light is the trigger that begins those chemical processes.
The more leaves your remove the more you are limiting the plants ability to act efficiently with the light it is being presented with.
I understand the idea that you want to get light to the lower buds - but what good does light do if there is nothing there to receive and process it???
Personally, I think it is better to remove the lower flowers that are being shaded...rather than the leaves. Let the plant refocus it's energy to an area that is at the top of the canopy.
I like to pull the lower bud sites - BUT LEAVE THE LEAVES. If I am stripping the lower part of a plant, I'll just pinch the secondary growth off, and leave the primary fan leaf.
I think the best example I have of this practice is in these pictures - you'll see how much leaf is on the bottom - but there are no buds there. They secondary growth sites are pinched out, but the leaves remain to power and fuel flower formation.
IN CONTRAST, this is what she looked like stripped down.
I wish the send picture wasn't as zoomed in or you could see more clearly how much came off. But, if you look at the lower stems, you can see the internodes where the fan leaves were removed - but you'll notice there is no flower formation at those lower locations.
THE ONLY practical reason I see to ever defoliate a plant, is to increase air flow around the soil surface and base of the plant to insure you aren't creating an environment for mold/mildew to take hold.
How large your canopy is depends on light penetration. If the light doesn't penetrate past a certain point, don't remove the leaves to attempt to get light there...remove the budsites.
Just some passing thoughts. I think your numbers can and will increase if you follow this advice. Perhaps take one plant and test this out to see if there is a difference before doing a whole crop this way.
dank.Frank
You have to think of the leaves as being the power cells of the plant. They absorb light, and are the key to retained nutrition within the plant itself. Photosynthesis, using light to convert water and co2 into starches and sugars which feed the plant. The more light absorbed, the more the plant is going to be able to utilize nutrition. Think of NPK and minerals as the material needed to create chlorophyll and aid in cell reproduction, but light is the trigger that begins those chemical processes.
The more leaves your remove the more you are limiting the plants ability to act efficiently with the light it is being presented with.
I understand the idea that you want to get light to the lower buds - but what good does light do if there is nothing there to receive and process it???
Personally, I think it is better to remove the lower flowers that are being shaded...rather than the leaves. Let the plant refocus it's energy to an area that is at the top of the canopy.
I like to pull the lower bud sites - BUT LEAVE THE LEAVES. If I am stripping the lower part of a plant, I'll just pinch the secondary growth off, and leave the primary fan leaf.
I think the best example I have of this practice is in these pictures - you'll see how much leaf is on the bottom - but there are no buds there. They secondary growth sites are pinched out, but the leaves remain to power and fuel flower formation.
IN CONTRAST, this is what she looked like stripped down.
I wish the send picture wasn't as zoomed in or you could see more clearly how much came off. But, if you look at the lower stems, you can see the internodes where the fan leaves were removed - but you'll notice there is no flower formation at those lower locations.
THE ONLY practical reason I see to ever defoliate a plant, is to increase air flow around the soil surface and base of the plant to insure you aren't creating an environment for mold/mildew to take hold.
How large your canopy is depends on light penetration. If the light doesn't penetrate past a certain point, don't remove the leaves to attempt to get light there...remove the budsites.
Just some passing thoughts. I think your numbers can and will increase if you follow this advice. Perhaps take one plant and test this out to see if there is a difference before doing a whole crop this way.
dank.Frank
Very nice thread BMac! All the flowers look incredible! Hope the smoke is treating you nicely!
dank.Frank, that's an interesting view point! I grow on a micro scenario, so I'm not sure all those principles really apply, however, if I need to sacrifice a fan leaf to get light penetration to 1-2 budsites I go for it! We are trying to grow buds and lot leaves
I will experiment with your method and see how it applies to my setup! Thanks for sharing!
dank.Frank, that's an interesting view point! I grow on a micro scenario, so I'm not sure all those principles really apply, however, if I need to sacrifice a fan leaf to get light penetration to 1-2 budsites I go for it! We are trying to grow buds and lot leaves
I will experiment with your method and see how it applies to my setup! Thanks for sharing!
i saw an interesting conceptualization of this topic in an article on plant steering. here's a graphic to whet your appetites:
I am especially interested on your smoke opinion for the GSC because of the extremely low yield.Is it worth the time and space?
If its too good you are going to be stuck growing it for years to come.
I hope for the best with your dank Line up
PH, a preliminary smoke report is as ive heard many times with the gsc. It is good to very good day time smoke, great flavor, clear buzz with little to no burnout and the bag appeal is off the charts. With only flowering 4-5 plants at a time, I cant justify growing it again. Not in the near future anyway.
Definitely some food for thought here DF and thanks for stopping by. I may give this a try with one plant this next round.
Heady, in trying to understand your picture - and precisely what it is implying...
I guess the question one must ask is does the truss (in cannabis, this would be the buds) possess the same photosynthetic abilities as the leaves themselves...
If not, then you are essentially reducing the amount of assimilates available to travel down the phloem. But in reading the article, it seems there is a competition of resources (in tomatoes) between leaf production and fruit production.
My real take away from the article though...they are not removing ENTIRE leaves...only a portion, 1 of 3, and only when they are young. In thinking about this approach - it may be of benefit to remove the largest fan blade of a new leaf set, typically the center blade.
Perhaps, we have been going about defoliation all wrong...in regards to finding that perfect balance of resource allocation and how it relates to yields.
So if we have an OG plant throwing 3 and 5 bladed leaves, perhaps we should be cutting them down to 2 and 4 - removing what will become the largest part of the leaf, the center fan blade...
I've got something new to test out! Must admit, that is exciting. Haven't had much "new to me" in cannabis cultivation techniques for quite some time.
dank.Frank
I guess the question one must ask is does the truss (in cannabis, this would be the buds) possess the same photosynthetic abilities as the leaves themselves...
If not, then you are essentially reducing the amount of assimilates available to travel down the phloem. But in reading the article, it seems there is a competition of resources (in tomatoes) between leaf production and fruit production.
My real take away from the article though...they are not removing ENTIRE leaves...only a portion, 1 of 3, and only when they are young. In thinking about this approach - it may be of benefit to remove the largest fan blade of a new leaf set, typically the center blade.
Perhaps, we have been going about defoliation all wrong...in regards to finding that perfect balance of resource allocation and how it relates to yields.
So if we have an OG plant throwing 3 and 5 bladed leaves, perhaps we should be cutting them down to 2 and 4 - removing what will become the largest part of the leaf, the center fan blade...
I've got something new to test out! Must admit, that is exciting. Haven't had much "new to me" in cannabis cultivation techniques for quite some time.
dank.Frank
bucketswithsoil
support your local surfboard builder...
Heady, in trying to understand your picture - and precisely what it is implying...
I guess the question one must ask is does the truss (in cannabis, this would be the buds) possess the same photosynthetic abilities as the leaves themselves...
If not, then you are essentially reducing the amount of assimilates available to travel down the phloem. But in reading the article, it seems there is a competition of resources (in tomatoes) between leaf production and fruit production.
My real take away from the article though...they are not removing ENTIRE leaves...only a portion, 1 of 3, and only when they are young. In thinking about this approach - it may be of benefit to remove the largest fan blade of a new leaf set, typically the center blade.
Perhaps, we have been going about defoliation all wrong...in regards to finding that perfect balance of resource allocation and how it relates to yields.
So if we have an OG plant throwing 3 and 5 bladed leaves, perhaps we should be cutting them down to 2 and 4 - removing what will become the largest part of the leaf, the center fan blade...
I've got something new to test out! Must admit, that is exciting. Haven't had much "new to me" in cannabis cultivation techniques for quite some time.
dank.Frank
fucking droppin knowledge....im ALWAYS chkin out DF when i see his posts...ALWAYS good shit...
tried reppin ya,but all out...
So I got the next round into the pots and into the flower tent. They will veg for 2-3 weeks I would think and then flip. They were re-moistened with a 36 hour tea of EWC and molasses. The left over soil was moistened as well and I put about 1-2 inch of that fresh soil on top of each pot and reapplied the hydroton.
I got the ballast on 300w for the first couple days, then 400W for a day or two and then finally 600W. Ill get a new bulb for this round once Im ready to go 12/12.
I also need to unhook my filter while the stank is down so that I can reverse the fan through it for an hour or so. I expected to replace it before the last round as it had already served 3-4 runs over almost 2 years. I read about people reversing a fan though them periodically drastically improving their life span. I tried it and it held up for another run of some very stinky girls. Ill definitely try to squeeze another one out of her.
I took the dome off the seedlings for the first time thinking they were big enough and they did not like the humidity change at all and started to shrivel. Good thing I checked on them soon as I woke up. I got to get the humidity up for veg. Good thing I didnt kill them but they are not happy at the moment.
I got the ballast on 300w for the first couple days, then 400W for a day or two and then finally 600W. Ill get a new bulb for this round once Im ready to go 12/12.
I also need to unhook my filter while the stank is down so that I can reverse the fan through it for an hour or so. I expected to replace it before the last round as it had already served 3-4 runs over almost 2 years. I read about people reversing a fan though them periodically drastically improving their life span. I tried it and it held up for another run of some very stinky girls. Ill definitely try to squeeze another one out of her.
I took the dome off the seedlings for the first time thinking they were big enough and they did not like the humidity change at all and started to shrivel. Good thing I checked on them soon as I woke up. I got to get the humidity up for veg. Good thing I didnt kill them but they are not happy at the moment.
Nice little scrubber tip there Bmac! Thanks for sharing!
Hi Bmac1. I feel your pain regarding defoliation. It's hard to exercise restraint, especially if you're on a mission and especially if you partook of the herb just prior. I, like most vertical growers try to use "feel" and "judgement" but it's very difficult to quantify the results. I've stripped them bare, left them au naturale, and everything in between. Generally, everything turns out ok just like in your case. As for yield, plant count is the real culprit. I'm not saying you can't get a monster harvest from 4 or 5 plants, but for me it's easier if I have 6, 7 or 8 around my 600.
Good luck on the next crop, I know you'll kill it (again).
Good luck on the next crop, I know you'll kill it (again).
MileHighGlass
Senior Member
Defoliation is an interesting cannabis topic.
I have yet to see a farmer defoliate his tomatos, cucumbers, corn, soy, etc... Or a greenhouse defoliate their flowers.
Wonder why?
The cannabis industry is mostly playing catch up when it comes to commercial agriculture. There are a lot of "bros" trying to reinvent a wheel that has been going for hundreds of years.
The "bros" think because they are growing cannabis that everything's all brand new. Kind of like new born babies. As naive too.
Go to a 50,000 square foot warehouse/greenhouse of cannabis. They are not defoliating. Go to a 1/2 acre plot of cannabis outdoors. they are not defoliating. The bigger guys in the cannabis industry are already starting to practice standard agriculture. Unfortunately, It has not trickled down yet.
Thank forums, grow shops, "bros", etc...
Eventually it will. The info is out there if you want to find it.
FYI, I tried defoliating many years ago. In a side by side test I could tell very quickly that it was not a good thing to do.
I have yet to see a farmer defoliate his tomatos, cucumbers, corn, soy, etc... Or a greenhouse defoliate their flowers.
Wonder why?
The cannabis industry is mostly playing catch up when it comes to commercial agriculture. There are a lot of "bros" trying to reinvent a wheel that has been going for hundreds of years.
The "bros" think because they are growing cannabis that everything's all brand new. Kind of like new born babies. As naive too.
Go to a 50,000 square foot warehouse/greenhouse of cannabis. They are not defoliating. Go to a 1/2 acre plot of cannabis outdoors. they are not defoliating. The bigger guys in the cannabis industry are already starting to practice standard agriculture. Unfortunately, It has not trickled down yet.
Thank forums, grow shops, "bros", etc...
Eventually it will. The info is out there if you want to find it.
FYI, I tried defoliating many years ago. In a side by side test I could tell very quickly that it was not a good thing to do.
I think that is just the general nature of plants in general. When tomatoes were first brought to the public people thought there were poisonous and watched a man eat a bushel for hours thinking he was surely going to fall over dead...
Prohibition is the root cause of the lack of knowledge. When something has been done in the shadows for so long and university extensions and professional greenhouses and plant/soil testing facilities won't touch it...it leaves it to the layman.
In the grand scheme, we've done remarkably well self-educating ourselves and sites like ICmag that truly take the time to weed out the garbage from the facts, have made a huge impact on new growers not having to start at square one.
There is still a lot to learn and incorporate for sure...but I'd also like to add in the perspective that certain practices are not performed on true commercial / warehouse / field scale, simply because the cost of labor to do such task becomes prohibitive. It is not always the result of "best agricultural practice" as much as it is the result of chasing ever increasing profits.
There is a middle ground some where. We'll get there eventually. Just keep tearing down the walls of prohibition...keep overgrowing!!!
dank.Frank
Prohibition is the root cause of the lack of knowledge. When something has been done in the shadows for so long and university extensions and professional greenhouses and plant/soil testing facilities won't touch it...it leaves it to the layman.
In the grand scheme, we've done remarkably well self-educating ourselves and sites like ICmag that truly take the time to weed out the garbage from the facts, have made a huge impact on new growers not having to start at square one.
There is still a lot to learn and incorporate for sure...but I'd also like to add in the perspective that certain practices are not performed on true commercial / warehouse / field scale, simply because the cost of labor to do such task becomes prohibitive. It is not always the result of "best agricultural practice" as much as it is the result of chasing ever increasing profits.
There is a middle ground some where. We'll get there eventually. Just keep tearing down the walls of prohibition...keep overgrowing!!!
dank.Frank
Goats
Active member
The main reason I continue to do it is that I notice that with the 600W in the 5 x 5, I could use more light. I want to avoid the hermies that show up from time to time in low light areas down low.
I was happy with the tops, they got pretty fat. I just think I could have left a node or two on each branch and made a fairly significant increase on the yield. I am going to try a plant as frank instructed above in leaving the fan leaf but pinching off the bud site.
Ill also get some pics and reports up this weekend. Ive been smoking myself silly, lol.
Every time I open a jar im like
I was happy with the tops, they got pretty fat. I just think I could have left a node or two on each branch and made a fairly significant increase on the yield. I am going to try a plant as frank instructed above in leaving the fan leaf but pinching off the bud site.
Ill also get some pics and reports up this weekend. Ive been smoking myself silly, lol.
Every time I open a jar im like
Nothing better than having jars full of home grown! 
dank.Frank
dank.Frank
Hmm comparing indoor practices to outdoor is tricky. Light and wind penetration are much greater on average.
As well, there are conventional (non cannabis) arguments for deleafing among the wider growing community.
I've yet to see anything definitive one way or the other, both sides have convincing arguments.
As well, there are conventional (non cannabis) arguments for deleafing among the wider growing community.
I've yet to see anything definitive one way or the other, both sides have convincing arguments.
So, the bud has been in the jars for a couple weeks now and I have been sampling away and figured its time for some pics and reports. The pics are ok but i always seem to get just a dimes worth of good focus. I need to get better with the camera but c'est la vie. The trim job isnt an overly anal one either, lol.
First up is the GSC-Forum Cut:
Great bag appeal, the densest buds of the 3 strains and also the smallest yield. It has a very intoxicating flavor/aroma as do the others. While I dont get mint with my pallet, I do get a sweet, doughy, kushy type of flavor that is really nice. It is great day time smoke in that it still has the strength that you start to feel instantly behind the eyes but it is a clear high with decent legs and no real burn out. The buds are deceptively heavy due to the density but the yield was so small that I have little desire to run her again. Should I change my mind, I should be able to get her back but I just prefer things to yield a bit better with the small numbers I run.
First up is the GSC-Forum Cut:
Great bag appeal, the densest buds of the 3 strains and also the smallest yield. It has a very intoxicating flavor/aroma as do the others. While I dont get mint with my pallet, I do get a sweet, doughy, kushy type of flavor that is really nice. It is great day time smoke in that it still has the strength that you start to feel instantly behind the eyes but it is a clear high with decent legs and no real burn out. The buds are deceptively heavy due to the density but the yield was so small that I have little desire to run her again. Should I change my mind, I should be able to get her back but I just prefer things to yield a bit better with the small numbers I run.
Lime Cookies -
Good density as well with bigger buds than the forum cut. The bag appeal is great as they all are. Much better than the usual wares you find locally. It definitely has the forum in the flavor/aroma with that cookie dough/ kushy flavor but with added lime, almost sprite tasting twang to it. It is very tasty. She did throw a couple nanners at about week 9 but nothing crazy.
The high is pretty strong and likely better saved for later in the day. It hits hard and its almost discombobulating in nature in that it will leave you confused you are so baked. You all of a sudden wonder why you are staring in the cupboard for the last 5 minutes and why did I put the jug of milk in the dishwasher? It was given to me with the understanding that it was a tasty day wrecker and it lives up to that for sure. Not much getting done after consuming her. 1 task at a time, lol.
Ive had a few good sleeps having a few rips of the Lime Cookies pre-bed time.
Good density as well with bigger buds than the forum cut. The bag appeal is great as they all are. Much better than the usual wares you find locally. It definitely has the forum in the flavor/aroma with that cookie dough/ kushy flavor but with added lime, almost sprite tasting twang to it. It is very tasty. She did throw a couple nanners at about week 9 but nothing crazy.
The high is pretty strong and likely better saved for later in the day. It hits hard and its almost discombobulating in nature in that it will leave you confused you are so baked. You all of a sudden wonder why you are staring in the cupboard for the last 5 minutes and why did I put the jug of milk in the dishwasher? It was given to me with the understanding that it was a tasty day wrecker and it lives up to that for sure. Not much getting done after consuming her. 1 task at a time, lol.
Ive had a few good sleeps having a few rips of the Lime Cookies pre-bed time.
The GG#4 -
Bag appeal for days with good density yet the lest dense of these three strains. She was taken at 68 days and I get maybe faint, chocolatey hints but not the mocha I hear comes at about day 70. I get an adhesive/gluey chemical type of funk that is very very pungent and taking the lid off the jar fills the room with a mouthwatering funk. A hit just forces you to smack you lips trying to pin down the flavor.
Very strong herb that also has a bit of that confusion inducing type of high. I would smoke during the day but not if I had too much to get done. Not quite the daywrecker the Lime Cookies is but it is close.
Bag appeal for days with good density yet the lest dense of these three strains. She was taken at 68 days and I get maybe faint, chocolatey hints but not the mocha I hear comes at about day 70. I get an adhesive/gluey chemical type of funk that is very very pungent and taking the lid off the jar fills the room with a mouthwatering funk. A hit just forces you to smack you lips trying to pin down the flavor.
Very strong herb that also has a bit of that confusion inducing type of high. I would smoke during the day but not if I had too much to get done. Not quite the daywrecker the Lime Cookies is but it is close.
