mycorrhizae with organics

[ganja din]

Yeah, I was providing examples of edible mushrooms that grow on dead or decaying trees.

But I'm confused as to why it's relevant? They are different type of fungi than those which grow in 'bulk substrate' like h.manure, etc (ex. P.cubensis). I guess my point is those types fungi would not 'grow' (or grow so poorly it wouldn't be worth it) in soil or media (ex. promix).

I'm not talking about indoor, although I did say medium. All my pictures are from outdoors.

Oh. Where do you live? I ask becuse only ceratin areas of hte country can support outdoor Psilocybe spp. growth (ex. P.mexicana or P.cubensis).

About the pics, they are yours? I thought they were RR's, or someone else form the shroomery. I could have sworn I've seen those pics before...guess not.

I'm much more interested in growing cannabis and mushrooms outdoors, though some of my plants are in pots and not in the soil, in which case it is a medium.

Cool.

It's going to take me a day to read through all your posts, but lots of good information! I have a bunch of questions already and have only been through the first page, guess that happens when you get in a thread this late.

Fire away with your Qs!

 

[maryjohn]

I disagree. Please see this post I made on the topic:
https://icmag.com/ic/showpost.php?p=2750155&postcount=83

I need a signature...

you can't be serious! Taxonomical nomenclature can only be of use when differentiation or equation is a goal. So it's fine to name the fungus early in the thread, then refer to it in whatever way is convenient and clear later on.

Personally, I hate spelling mycorrhizae. AnD AM sounds like the morning, and can be just as confusing. First time I saw the term I assumed it was a root fungus for trees. Someone will be confused by whatever term you use. But I would rather an imperfect term that tells the story than a perfect term good only for those who know the code.

 

[quadracer]

But I'm confused as to why it's relevant? They are different type of fungi than those which grow in 'bulk substrate' like h.manure, etc (ex. P.cubensis). I guess my point is those types fungi would not 'grow' (or grow so poorly it wouldn't be worth it) in soil or media (ex. promix).

Yeah definitely. Not disagreeing with you. My comment was in regards to another saying that only poisonous mushrooms grow from stumps, which is not true.

Oh. Where do you live? I ask becuse only ceratin areas of hte country can support outdoor Psilocybe spp. growth (ex. P.mexicana or P.cubensis).

Yeah my winters are wet and not freezing, there is also the potent P. Cyanofriscosa.

About the pics, they are yours? I thought they were RR's, or someone else form the shroomery. I could have sworn I've seen those pics before...guess not.

The ones in this thread are. The ones on the shroomery are his. There are plenty of pictures of people tossing out spent casings and coming back to a flush.

Sorry to derail about mushrooms.

Fire away with your Qs!

Loved that Luebke paper. Definitely supported all my reasons for planting a cover crop. Does AM fungi have the ability to change hosts pretty easily? How much time does this take?

What about from tree roots to a plant with more seasonal roots?

A little project of AM fungi of my own. I've been collecting wild mushrooms and digging up seedlings from around the area, trying to establish the fungi to the tree.

What is the best way to facilitate this? Also, will there be any other AM fungi present in the ground with the seedling? What about soil far far away from any type of tree?

Do you have any articles or papers about this? I have found "Cultivation Of Mushrooms Of Edible Ectomycorrhizal Fungi Associated With Pinus Densiflora By In Vitro Mycorrhizal Synthesis." Are there any others?

Thanks!

 

[happyhi]

many thanks

many thanks

If you are referring to AM fungi then yes, they can be a maze under the ground. But most species of AM fungi can form a mycorrhiza association with most any mycorrhizal host plant. Some AM fungi require specific mycorrhizal host plants but it think that's the exception, not the rule.


If you are referring to AM fungi and “anastomoses” (ie. hyphal fusing) then no. Not as far as I have read. For anastomoses to occur in AM fungi all fungi involved must be the same strain (aka isolate), not just the same species. Other species of fungi (non AM) can carry out anastomoses between two different races, variates and isolates. In fact, I have been researching, and plan to use rattlesnake venom infused agar (eg. "venomized agar" from Sigma) to facilitate intraGenus breeding (P.cubensis x P.mexicana) via. isolate hyphae anastomoses. The same has already been accomplished with two hallucinogenic fungi (intraFamily!) using the same venomized agar. And AlohaMedicinals were the fist ones to pioneer this method by intraFamily (or was it intraGenus?) breeding of two medical fruing fungi.


What do you mean by "they come in many flavors"? Do you mean different AM species, or AM fungi and ecotomycorrhizal fungi?

What do you mean by "good and bad"? If you are referring to AM fungi then no, I do not know of an instance where they are 'bad'.


True. But 'they' and 'we' are getting there. I am looking forward to working with AM fungi on agar! But, 'we' do have a pretty good idea of most interactions and limits, though new things are learned all the time. AM fungi is one of the most studied non-fruiting fungi I know of...


No, I would not agree with that. See my first paragraph in this post. I think the problem is a nomenclature issue:

• species = G.mosseae (AM fungi)
• strain/isolate/clone = a specific individual fungus within a community of the same species. Note that for something to be a "strain" it has to be living, this is true for fungi or plants. I have long argued about the nomenclature cannabis breeders use (in horticulture, a synonymous term is "varietal" or "strain")
• sub-species/race/variety/sub-variety = Different 'types' of populations within the same species. Usually divided by phenotype and genotype, and originally, origin)

While I'm on the topic, without providing a lot of 'proof', which I have, I would like to dispel some inaccurate taxonomy of the Cannabis L. genus. According to traditional taxonomy, including that of the US Gov and all other Gov's, indica and sativa are the same species, but a different "sub-species". In my opinion that is not accurate. My interpretation of current data leads me to firmly believe there are probably ( ) at least three different species of Cannabis spp. ("spp." means "various species name goes here", kind of like X in math):

• Cannabis sativa L. = where ruderalis and all other sub-species, races, etc, of Cannabis spp. are placed.
• Cannabis sativa = The species of sativa, ie. a Thai is a different species than a Hundu-kush.
• Cannabis indica = The species of indica, ie. a Hindu-kush is a different species than a Thai.

FWIW, here is the current, and incorrect, accepted taxonomy of Cannabis spp.: ("subsp." means "sub-species")

• Cannabis sativa L. = where ruderalis and all other sub-species, races, etc, of Cannabis spp. are placed.
• Cannabis sativa L. subsp. sativa = The species of sativa, ie. a Thai is a different species than a Hundu-kush.
• Cannabis sativa L. subsp. indica =T he species of indica, ie. a Hindu-kush is a different species than a Thai.

You lost me there. I think my first paragraphs in this thread is applicable.


Yes! With the caveat that the plant is not in total control, the microbes have a say too. And as mentioned, if AM fungi are present, they control the microbes too (via. the "mycorhziosphere", and/or "mycosphere", etc).


You are indeed on the right track. Thank you for taking the time to read, and digest what I wrote. . I hope this gets you fixed up.

later

Great contribution to the community and my thanks for taking the time to break down my simplistic question.

I also just ordered the microscope that microbeman makes, that is the microscope you are referring to correct?

the bottom line regarding the contribution of AM to cannabis growth based on your reference material is that it really is not doing anything and if it is
it's because the level of P is low enough to allow the AM to flourish and
do it's thing, but if P is readily available to the plant thru the herds actions
the AM will be rendered ineffective.

My question is, why do i see photos of seedlings which are dipped in or treated with endo/ecto's and they appear to be growing at a much faster
rate in test. I linked up to the web site that microbeman has linked on his
site and they are clearly making the case for the use of myco's.

I have done runs with myco and without and don't see a whole lot of difference so i stopped buying the stuff just on principle.

thanks for all the info and time!
Peace/HH

 

[ganja din]

you can't be serious! Taxonomical nomenclature can only be of use when differentiation or equation is a goal. So it's fine to name the fungus early in the thread, then refer to it in whatever way is convenient and clear later on.

Did you read my post? My point was people should use the term AM, that's all. It's crazy simple and nomenclature wise it's the accepted term, not VAM, endomycorrhizal fungi, etc.

Why teach someone something that is not correct? Having people write all kinds of terms just confuses matters. To each their own, Im not a speech police guy, I personlly think using the correct term when it's simple is pretty good idea.

Personally, I hate spelling mycorrhizae.

Haha, yea me too

AnD AM sounds like the morning, and can be just as confusing.

How so? And if so then not nearly as much as myco or mike imo. Root fungi is more understandable beuase like you said, it's pretty much the Enlgish translation, but still totally incorrect. Sorry.

First time I saw the term I assumed it was a root fungus for trees. Someone will be confused by whatever term you use. But I would rather an imperfect term that tells the story than a perfect term good only for those who know the code.

To each their own. But to me that does those you are teaching a disservice. Each time I use a acronym which is uncommon I include what it means. That's standard writing 101. Then only the acronym needs to be used.

I just make sure to write "(Arbuscular Mycorrhizal) fungi" following the first instance of the acronym AM.

THanks

 

[maryjohn]

"arbuscular" looks like pertaining to trees is what I meant. and you said it right - to each their own. which is why its great to have the right terms and a simultaneous respect for the colloquial.

set and setting is involved. in this setting AM is almost a tool being used by us.

 

[LadyLargely]

Hey again

Please see my first post in this thread. And note, in one great study by David D. Douds, Ph.D[1], he used BioBizz in one experiment as a means to increase nitrogen over a period of five weeks (3x a week). This allowed him to increase N without increasing P. N was increased to a level of ~210 ppm available organic N (the same level of N for his experiments with inorganic minerals)

Are you inferring that the kelp and carbs 'feed' the AM fungi or help it in some other direct fashion? So called 'AM fungi growth promoters', etc, are useless gymicks in most every case. According to current scientific understanding, AM fungi can only use sugars and chemicals produced by a host plant as 'food'. Though, I have spoken some researchers in the field and they suggest there may be methods to 'feed' AM fungi without a mycorrhiza association. However, it is so far only a theory.


Just make sure the inital pH is between ~6 to <8, most AM fungi have a rather limited pH range. (which it would be anyway for Cannabis culture i guess)


Can you please elaborate in detail? HOw can a 'bio box' (what is that anyway?) have any effect upon the tolerances of AM fungi in regards to inorganic fertilizers?


What do you mean by "high-quality", a cation is a cation and a anion is anion. AM fungi have higher tolerances to N and K than any other minerals I am aware of.


What is that? Bubbling the fertilizers prior to application? If so why? I think EJ can be hot? If it's for microbes plenty of them (mostly bacteria) will find the media (over a period of time vs time spend 'bubbling', if that is what you mean). I assume at least as much bacteria would find media, as would find the water surface area of the container holding the water/fert mix. The highest contamination vector in mycology is considered to be the fist 2 feet or so from the floor...


[1] “On-farm Production and Utilization of AM Fungus Inoculum”
Author(s): David D. Douds, PhD.
USDA-ARS Eastern Regional Research Center, June 16, 2009

Thanks

GD

Your tome of information is truly impressive. However, I would suggest you do a little research on my suggestions before you go critiquing them. The fact you thought that I was talking about aerating nutrients before adding them to the medium (tea making) shows how little you understand my position. I read all the links and information you made in your first post. Now why don't you pay me the same respect and hit the Club Bio Box link in my sig, perhaps you will better understand my position.

You're responses, they are very pedantic. You appear quite well informed, but tell me, where is your garden? As much text as you have vomited up in this thread I see very little information that is actually relevant. You're talking rocket science man, none of this shit is practical. We are pot farmers. We care about real world results, not some numbers that where generated by dipshits in a lab. Wonderful research, very valuable, none of us care! All of your posts smack of an induvidual who is extremely well-read but has very limited real-world experience. You are very good at correcting us and informing us on the right termonology, but that seems to be about it.
How is a cannabis cultivator supposed to adapt all of your information to anything useful? We have been successfully cultivating MA fungus indoors for years, why are these details important?
I am not as scientifically-inclined as you ganja din, but I still have a bone to pick with some of your information.

You seem very insistent that MA fungus cannot survive without the presence of plant roots. Your evidence also suggests that it takes many weeks to get full MA takeover of a soil when using dormant freeze-dried fungal spores. My personal experience spells this out as deeply incorrect:

Not only are Bio Box gardeners able to cultivate powerful Mycorhiza fungus without the presence of terrestrial plant roots, but we are also able to do so very quickly. The last image there is of MA fungus which has formed in 48 hours, not 5-8 weeks!

MA fungus is naturally-occurring, it is adapted to survive. This is something you lab-coat types seem to overlook. It will live off of any food it can process. MA fungus lives primarily off of plant-produced carbohydrates. It forms a symbiotic relationship with plant roots because live plant roots shed carbohydrates as they grow. Just because it has a favored source does not mean MA fungus is picky about its food sources. It will consume and live off of many different plant-derived carbohydrates.

What do you mean by "high-quality", a cation is a cation and a anion is anion. AM fungi have higher tolerances to N and K than any other minerals I am aware of.

This little gem right here demonstrates your ignorance. Have you ever even grown a plant? Do you have any practical gardening experience at all? Grow some veggies with your grandma? Taken a botany class in high-school?

Cations and anions are not all the same. We are after N-P-K, but how are these elements captured? In artificial ferts its usually with a salt. When I said high-quality I meant it. Manufacturers use many different sorts of salts to deliver elemental nutrition. Nitrogen for instance can be delivered with Ammonia-based salts. This is called ammoniacal nitrogen. This sort of nitrogen source is much lower-quality than those delivered with urea-based salts. Urea-delivered nitrogen can be packed more potently. Less salt gets you more of the desired nutrition. Thus it is higher quality. This is just one example of what I mean, there are countless others.

N-P-K must always be delivered by something. Thats the rub. What kind of substances you use to deliver the desired nutrition has a huge impact on your grow, and what kind, if any, microbes you may be able to cultivate.

And simply declaring hard-line tolerances for MA fungus is just plain wrong. The dance they perform with other forms of life, such as aerobic bacteria, is one of the most complex found in nature and modern science has just begun to understand what it all means. In my personal experience, MA fungus is much more flexible and adaptable than your material suggests. Difference is, we have real world results to back that experience up. You have some references to obscure scientific experiments. Come back and tell us when you have applied your vast tomes of knowledge to the growing of some of these:

 

[maryjohn]

if it's growing without a plant how are you sure it is the same fungus?

 

[ganja din]

Loved that Luebke paper. Definitely supported all my reasons for planting a cover crop.

Great! I really like the idea too. I am in contact with the Luebke US liaison and main contact. But he doesn't like to be 'in the loop' anymore. Though I do have some 'inside' info, for example, the only reason CMC suggest adding "clay-loam" is to make sure the clay aggregates well by virtue of the loam and sand fractions. I use zeolite in place of clay the Luebke suggest. Natural clay has a CEC around 20-30, zeolite has a CEC around 200-300, or greater. And the CEC of the clay is it's main function in the formation of the "clay-humus crumb", which is really a aggregate of clay in which humus has been bound, along with some Ca, both with and without the assistance of microbes. This "clay-humus crumb' is the main goal of 'humus management' in farming systems. CMC compost has humic levels not found in 'regular' hot compost. And some other things I wont say right now . I have other great paper on that topic I could see about PMing you a link or something.

Does AM fungi have the ability to change hosts pretty easily?

Not in those terms if I understand you correctly. A AM fungus will not 'leave' a host plant it has a mycorrhiza association with. However, AM fungus X can form a mycorrhiza association with many, if not nearly all, mycorrhizal plants, just not at the same time.

How much time does this take?

Well if you are referring to inoculating a few container of soil (for example), and you used live spores, mycelium/hyphae and infected host root (eg. "propagules") then from what I have read initial infection can happen in a week or two, if the AM fungus inoculum is very near the rhizosphere. And full infection, which is really about about 60-80% infection of total root mass, seems to happen around week 5 to week 10. But I have not read any studies on freeze dried spores. Though I am sure some must exist. I will look tomorrow and try to read up. Regardless, if the inoculum is only freeze dried spores then the time line will be extend more than a little I think.

What about from tree roots to a plant with more seasonal roots?

Most 'tree root' fungi, like truffles, etc, (if that is what your are referring to) are "ectomycorrhizal" fungi, essentially meaning 'above ground fruiting', or so. They do not form the same type of symbiotic relationship as AM fungi, and have far, far fewer associations to plants and trees.

A little project of AM fungi of my own. I've been collecting wild mushrooms and digging up seedlings from around the area, trying to establish the fungi to the tree.

What is the best way to facilitate this?

I think you are comparing apples to oranges. If you are trying to utilize the 'wild mushrooms' then it won't work, they are not mycorrhizal fungi in most cases, unless they are associated to a tree. You will not find fruiting mycorrhizal fungi 'in the open'. But if you mean you put the seedlings next to tree roots and hope that fungi from the soil will 'infect' the tree it still won't happen. Fruiting mycorrhizal fungi are "ectomycorrhizal" fungi, not AM fungi. One can't do the work of the other.

Also, will there be any other AM fungi present in the ground with the seedling? What about soil far far away from any type of tree?

Could be. Depends upon where you get the soil from. Chances are good if your in prairie lands, old tree forests (esp out west), some marsh lands, etc. Those natural places are usually loaded with AM, if they have been undisturbed for many years and not isolated like NY Central Park, haha...

Do you have any articles or papers about this?

On what exactly? I am still a bit unclear as to your goals. I might have a few papers, if not I could probably find a bunch. I have free access to tons and tons and tons of journal papers through an amazing library system, in hardcover and digital

I have found "Cultivation Of Mushrooms Of Edible Ectomycorrhizal Fungi Associated With Pinus Densiflora By In Vitro Mycorrhizal Synthesis." Are there any others?

Again, I think you are trying to make an AM fungi do what only ectomycorrhizal fungi does...or am I mistaken?

Thanks!

Your welcome

 

[ganja din]

Great contribution to the community and my thanks for taking the time to break down my simplistic question.

No problem, I am happy you are taking the time to read it all and digest it.

I also just ordered the microscope that microbeman makes, that is the microscope you are referring to correct?

Great! And yes. I didn't know if he 'was out' here or not. If you are ever in the market for a HD video/still camera to use with the microscope, so you can take video in HD, I can suggest a good 'prosumer' type that is ~$1,100. Im gonna PM you something I think you should checkout, if you haven't do so thus far.

the bottom line regarding the contribution of AM to cannabis growth based on your reference material is that it really is not doing anything and if it is it's because the level of P is low enough to allow the AM to flourish and
do it's thing

Yes, nice sumation

but if P is readily available to the plant thru the herds actions
the AM will be rendered ineffective.

No, not really. It depends upon the amont of available P the roots can absorb. The more of that (ie P cations) the less they need the AM fungi, and so the AM fungi will suffer. That is why, imo, AM fungi are mainly found in P deficient to very low P soils, that's where they are needed...

The 'limits' we are referring to are not set I know about. Re: I don't know how much P as cation from microbial biofertilzers will cause cannabis, or other plants, to take less from AM fungi, and hence give less to AM fungi.

My question is, why do i see photos of seedlings which are dipped in or treated with endo/ecto's and they appear to be growing at a much faster rate in test. I linked up to the web site that microbeman has linked on his site and they are clearly making the case for the use of myco's.

They are not feed P I assume. And the treatment is usually with live spores and hyphae/mycelium via the root dip. If not, if they are using freeze dried spores only, I would look for the elapsed time. I am not saying AM fungi are not useful, quite the opposite! I am just saying I dont think they are usful for growing cannabis in a sustainable, biological, orgnaic fashion.

I have done runs with myco and without and don't see a whole lot of difference so i stopped buying the stuff just on principle.

Good for you, too many people think company hype is gospel

\thanks for all the info and time!
Peace/HH

I would like to mention that I could have written something inaccurate, or incorrect, but I don't think I did. When MM gets back I'm sure he will glance over this thread and let me know if I said something stupid (or at least I hope he would tell me ). BTW, were is tad?

Your welcome. I have some paper I think you may like about microscopy. We should talk more about this. Maybe via IM? Or PM? Have you used a microscope like this before? I'm looking forward to reading your future contributions!

 

[ganja din]

Loved that Luebke paper. Definitely supported all my reasons for planting a cover crop.

Great! I really like the idea too. I am in contact with the Luebke US liaison and main contact. But he doesn't like to be 'in the loop' anymore. Though I do have some 'inside' info, for example, the only reason CMC suggest adding "clay-loam" is to make sure the clay aggregates well by virtue of the loam and sand fractions. I use zeolite in place of clay the Luebke suggest. Natural clay has a CEC around 20-30, zeolite has a CEC around 200-300, or greater. And the CEC of the clay is it's main function in the formation of the "clay-humus crumb", which is really a aggregate of clay in which humus has been bound, along with some Ca, both with and without the assistance of microbes. This "clay-humus crumb' is the main goal of 'humus management' in farming systems. CMC compost has humic levels not found in 'regular' hot compost. And some other things I wont say right now . I have other great paper on that topic I could see about PMing you a link or something.

Does AM fungi have the ability to change hosts pretty easily?

Not in those terms if I understand you correctly. A AM fungus will not 'leave' a host plant it has a mycorrhiza association with. However, AM fungus X can form a mycorrhiza association with many, if not nearly all, mycorrhizal plants, just not at the same time.

How much time does this take?

Well if you are referring to inoculating a few container of soil (for example), and you used live spores, mycelium/hyphae and infected host root (eg. "propagules") then from what I have read initial infection can happen in a week or two, if the AM fungus inoculum is very near the rhizosphere. And full infection, which is really about about 60-80% infection of total root mass, seems to happen around week 5 to week 10. But I have not read any studies on freeze dried spores. Though I am sure some must exist. I will look tomorrow and try to read up. Regardless, if the inoculum is only freeze dried spores then the time line will be extend more than a little I think.

What about from tree roots to a plant with more seasonal roots?

Most 'tree root' fungi, like truffles, etc, (if that is what your are referring to) are "ectomycorrhizal" fungi, essentially meaning 'above ground fruiting', or so. They do not form the same type of symbiotic relationship as AM fungi, and have far, far fewer associations to plants and trees.

A little project of AM fungi of my own. I've been collecting wild mushrooms and digging up seedlings from around the area, trying to establish the fungi to the tree.

What is the best way to facilitate this?

I think you are comparing apples to oranges. If you are trying to utilize the 'wild mushrooms' then it won't work, they are not mycorrhizal fungi in most cases, unless they are associated to a tree. You will not find fruiting mycorrhizal fungi 'in the open'. But if you mean you put the seedlings next to tree roots and hope that fungi from the soil will 'infect' the tree it still won't happen. Fruiting mycorrhizal fungi are "ectomycorrhizal" fungi, not AM fungi. One can't do the work of the other.

Also, will there be any other AM fungi present in the ground with the seedling? What about soil far far away from any type of tree?

Could be. Depends upon where you get the soil from. Chances are good if your in prairie lands, old tree forests (esp out west), some marsh lands, etc. Those natural places are usually loaded with AM, if they have been undisturbed for many years and not isolated like NY Central Park, haha...

Do you have any articles or papers about this?

On what exactly? I am still a bit unclear as to your goals. I might have a few papers, if not I could probably find a bunch. I have free access to tons and tons and tons of journal papers through an amazing library system, in hardcover and digital

I have found "Cultivation Of Mushrooms Of Edible Ectomycorrhizal Fungi Associated With Pinus Densiflora By In Vitro Mycorrhizal Synthesis." Are there any others?

Again, I think you are trying to make an AM fungi do what only ectomycorrhizal fungi does...or am I mistaken?

Thanks!

Your welcome

 

[ganja din]

GD

Your tome of information is truly impressive. However, I would suggest you do a little research on my suggestions before you go critiquing them.

OK. But I didn't see any references or links or anything. That is why I asked for some. I wasn't critiquing you, and I'm sorry if you took offense, none was intended. I was merely responding to posts in order, ones I thought I could be of assistance in or where I had a question.

The fact you thought that I was talking about aerating nutrients before adding them to the medium (tea making)

I thought that, but as I mentioned, I also thought it could be something else. And FWIW, "tea making", to me, is brewing ACT. Maybe tea means something else here? Regardless, you use one sentence of mine to form a negative opinion of me? After you said "Your tome of information is truly impressive." I am confused. What did I do 'wrong'?

shows how little you understand my position.

Which is why I asked for clarification many times.

I read all the links and information you made in your first post. Now why don't you pay me the same respect and hit the Club Bio Box link in my sig, perhaps you will better understand my position.

Sure, now that you asked so nicely. If you wanted me to read it why didn't you just tell me to check out? However, I can't guarantee I will agree with what I read, but I will have on open mind. Journal articles and hard factual data sways my opinion more than most anything else...

You're responses, they are very pedantic.

Says the person using the word "pendantic". Dont' you see the irony? I don't think I am pendantic in the lest, but I do like to use proper nominclute.

You appear quite well informed, but tell me, where is your garden?

Near to where I am, in a different house.Your point being?

As much text as you have vomited up in this thread I see very little information that is actually relevant.

Fist sentance = "Your tome of information is truly impressive"

Now = "As much text as you have vomited up in this thread"

The fact you don't see what is relevent means to me you might be a bit biased. Sorry to call a spade a spade.

You're talking rocket science man, none of this shit is practical.

Ummm, no, I am not. To some I am not writing well enough. Can't please everyone. All this info is practilce, you just have to look past your anger at me.

We are pot farmers. We care about real world results, not some numbers that where generated by dipshits in a lab.

Ummm, the resach was in vivo in most all cases, either greenhouse or feild.

...none of us care!

I disagree.

All of your posts smack of an induvidual who is extremely well-read but has very limited real-world experience.

OK, thanks.

You are very good at correcting us and informing us on the right termonology, but that seems to be about it.

wow...

How is a cannabis cultivator supposed to adapt all of your information to anything useful?

In my opinion, dont use AM fungi when growing cannabis if your using even moderate levels of high P inputs unless it is in a sequested form like soft rock phosphate.

We have been successfully cultivating MA fungus indoors for years,

And you know this how?????

why are these details important?

Becuse I don't think you "...have been successfully cultivating MA fungus indoors...". And I'm trying to help others.

I am not as scientifically-inclined as you ganja din, but I still have a bone to pick with some of your information.

Great.

You seem very insistent that MA fungus cannot survive without the presence of plant roots.

That was on page 1-4 (or so). Yesterday I found a paper about culturing AM fungi in petri dish using certain slim-forming bacteria as a form of 'food', or so it seems. So I was wrong two days ago, and I'm right now. I don't mind when *I'm* wrong...cough...hint...cough...

You may want to check out the last few pages.

Your evidence also suggests that it takes many weeks to get full MA takeover of a soil when using dormant freeze-dried fungal spores.

No. The research I have done on other journal article shows for full infection of AM fungi (which means about 60-80% of total root mass is infected) 5-10 weeks is common (ex. tomato). But, that is with live spores, hyphae/mycelium, and in many cases, infected roots chopped up and used as inoculum.

I have not found a single journal article using freeze dried spores. But, like I said, I haven't really look very hard. Tomorrow I will look hard. My assumption is if one is using freeze dried AM fungi spores infection will be delayed by weeks, if not longer.

The AM fungus mycelium network doesn't try to 'take over' the soil, it tends to stay close to the rhizophere if minerals it can solublize are close. Note: that is in soil/media with perfect conditions. AM fungi does 'seek out' plant rhizosphere but not like I think you are visualizing.

My personal experience spells this out as deeply incorrect:

What are those pictures supposed to be of? The one with perlite, is that on the surface of your media? Regardless, that is not AM fungi. Sorry to say. Dr. Elaine Ingham claims fungi with hyphae (or is it mycelium? I forget, MicrobeMan, what does she claim?) which are ~3 microns are 'beneficial'. (I forget if it over 3 microns, or under, but I think it's over.) I can chack my notes later.

The pics of the top of the media is also not AM fungi. even though I cant see it very well. AM fungi live *underground*. IN the top 10 cm or so of soil/media.

Not only are Bio Box gardeners able to cultivate powerful Mycorhiza fungus...

"mycorrhizal fungi"

...without the presence of terrestrial plant roots,

Wait, what? Sorry man, you just fell off the turnip truck! If you could do that you would be *famous*, what you speak of has not been achieved, ever, that I am aware of.

but we are also able to do so very quickly. The last image there is of MA fungus which has formed in 48 hours, not 5-8 weeks!

OK, I'm trying really hard not to be rude to you right now. What you say is offense to me, considering how much time and effort I put into this thread so far. Not to mention the weeks of reading I had to do to get this far. I am going to assume you are ignorant of the biological process of AM fungi, and the fact there are a myriad of other fungi in the world.

What you just wrote is not possible with AM fungi.

You have yet so show me any evidence but some grainy pics of fungi which is not AM fungi.

MA fungus is naturally-occurring, it is adapted to survive. This is something you lab-coat types seem to overlook. It will live off of any food it can process.

No, you are incorrect. Even in the study where the AM fungi could (seemingly) feed off of a bacteria it could only do so of that *one* specific specie of bacteria.

Please re-read this thread. The first paper I uploaded, the one split into two files, is great. I've read it a few times at least. I think it can help you, along with other I posted. However, I think the most good you could do yourself is to read the paper which JayKush linked to. I think it's the best one your you, by far.

FWIW, it's "AM" fungi, not "MA" fungus. Fungi is plural.

MA fungus lives primarily off of plant-produced carbohydrates. It forms a symbiotic relationship with plant roots because live plant roots shed carbohydrates as they grow. Just because it has a favored source does not mean MA fungus is picky about its food sources. It will consume and live off of many different plant-derived carbohydrates.

No, no and no. Please, read up on the basis of what a "mycorrhizal fungi" is. And what a "mycorrhiza association" is. And what "obligate symboint" means. All those terms relate directly to the AM fungi we are discussing.

This little gem right here demonstrates your ignorance. Have you ever even grown a plant? Do you have any practical gardening experience at all? Grow some veggies with your grandma? Taken a botany class in high-school?

Nope, I wish I could. But I'm like the "boy in the bubble", if I go outside I die.

Cations and anions are not all the same.

Who said they were? They are both ions. N and P are cations. Ammonium and nitrates are both two cations of N. (unless Im crazy)

When I said high-quality I meant it. Manufacturers use many different sorts of salts to deliver elemental nutrition.

If manufacture X uses Y cation, and so does manufacture Z, but Z gets it from China, does that mean the plant will absorb that cation any differently? No.

Nitrogen for instance can be delivered with Ammonia-based salts. This is called ammoniacal nitrogen. This sort of nitrogen source is much lower-quality than those delivered with urea-based salts. Urea-delivered nitrogen can be packed more potently. Less salt gets you more of the desired nutrition. Thus it is higher quality. This is just one example of what I mean, there are countless others.

You are comparing apples to oranges. I am referring to the same cation, but one source is "high quality" (your words) and the other is not. But it's still the *same* cation. You are comparing different forms of N.

What kind of substances you use to deliver the desired nutrition has a huge impact on your grow,

Ugggh, most people use water.

and what kind, if any, microbes you may be able to cultivate.

The plant and micro-herd take care of that. As long as the media is sufficient and fertilization and watering regimens are both supportive of the micro-herd.

And simply declaring hard-line tolerances for MA fungus is just plain wrong.

References please? I will tell Mr. Douds, Phd he is wrong for you. I know he carried out well designed studies and is considered at the top of this field, but whatever, he's a douche bag.





OK, I'm done. I tried to stay civil, even though it wasn't easy. What is it with the interent, so many people take offense at so many things...crazy.

Shalom

 

[LadyLargely]

Alright, alright, I figured this would happen. I stuck my hand in and now look what's happened.

I'll freely admit I've jumped into a discussion that's way over my head. I was just irritated with the way you nitpicked The Instant Expert's Guide to Mycorhiza Fungus down to the point where you hardly found it meaningful. The author may over-emphasize the importance of MA and did a few other things you felt needed correcting, but its solid info and a damn sight easier to understand than all the info you've linked to. Couple that with the fact that the knowlege in it is the basis for a very commercially successful process for utilizing MA fungus and I find it much more relevant than experiments conducted in controlled laboroatory settings.

You seem to be speaking about some very specific breeds of fungus whereas I refer to generic microshperes. Because honestly, does it mean anything to talk about specific breeds of a soil-science-relevent fungus? Is there any way to meaningfully leverage these specific fungi? Isn't it better for ordinary gardeners to develop processes for cultivating a mass base of beneficial fungi?

Home gardeners discussing the precise habits and preferred living conditions for specific MA fungus might as well be penguins discussing astro-physics. For real world soil chemistry I feel your approach is very backwards. And pedantic: overtly concerned with details which eschew the big picture.

You looked at the OP, who put fowarth a very simple question, and felt that to adequately answer that question the OP needs to be intimately familiar with the most cutting-edge scientific explinations currently avaliable. That is not what he needs. He needs general practices for cultivating beneficial microbes. Does the OP give a shit what kinds of microbes they are? Does it matter if certain beneficial fungi develop rather than others? No.

The discussions and matirial you bring up are very interesting. I'm sure your references are accurate and the data presented therin are representative of the most 'correct' understanding of MA fungi currently avaliable. I'm sure you could contradict all kinds of things I say and make me look like an idiot. In fact, you already have done.

But the fact remains that none of this hard data is particularly meaningful to the members of ICmag at large. You said yourself that MA fungi are probobally not that great for cannabis cultivation.

if it's growing without a plant how are you sure it is the same fungus?

You know what? I'm not sure. None of us are.

The bottom line is: I have no idea what kind of fungi and other beneficial microbes I am cultivating. I do not know the proper nomenclature. If I where to get into an argument with some eggheads about it (like I just have) I would look an idiot.

ganja din:

You know waymore about this than I do. Consider my ass skooled, I will not get into it with you concerning semantics any more.

OK, so maybe I'm not cultivating MA fungi at all. I don't know. I should not be getting into a specific Mycorhizae argument.

What I do know is that we cultivate fucking kick ass beneficial microbes. In truth, we have no idea what kind of microbes those are. What we do know, is that they are fucking awesome for cannabis cultivation.

Now, it may not have been his specific wording, but something tells me this is what the OP wanted. I very much doubt he cares what kind of fungus it is, so long as it helps him to grow the ganjas.

So do carry on ganja din. Consider me skooled, and disreguard my participation in this specific argument. Please continue to teach this community about the finer points of MA classification and hard data. I'm sure a small handful of gardeners will find it relevant to their interests.

But I beleive the vast majority of ICmag members are not so interested. I think what they want are easy, reliable methods for cultivating beneficial microbes.

And so I shall carry on doing that. We have very different approaches to the business of beneficial microbes you and I, they are too different to ever have made a meaningful clash. I don't care about any of the things you are posting about, so it was very stupid of me to argue with you about them. I guess I just picked a fight because you belittled my new favorite reference matirial. I had just finished reading that and felt totally accomplished for having understood it. Then you came along and labeled it as elementary and lacking in depth. Which made me feel dumb. And I therefore reacted, which was stupid.

So you just keep on looking into your microscope. Its people like you who advance the fields of modern scientific understanding. Where it not for blokes like you, we wouldn't have nifty gear like cars, or the world wide web. Should not have bit your head off. I tried to jump into the deep end of the pool and got what I deserved.

 

[maryjohn]

ganja: what about the idea (it got lost in the bickering) that P should not be available for diffusion except from concentrated areas lower down in the soil. So a handful of bone and blood imitates a dead animal, and the rest of the mix is clean. AM could stay away from the high P area.

Speaking of which - and bacterial death leads to available P, in the for of ATP. Is this to say that microbial life must recede for AM to proliferate?


And can you confirm that MA (just kidding!) are visible when the root ball is well colonized? If so, I have gotten them within 4 weeks in soil amended with bone meal. If not, I'll just keep using biotone for all the other goodies.

 

[Microbeman]

A quick note: Whew, gotta catch up on reading! I've been away for a few days picking up microscope bodies at the harbor. Quickly, I like to consider fungal hyphae as beneficial if 6 microns and thickier to be on the safe side. Elaine says >3 microns. Hyphae growing in horticultural soil is usually fungi imperfecti {without fruiting bodies} but can also be basidiomycota {without fruiting bodies or with fruiting bodies}. There are some unclassified mushrooms which grew with my plants but it is possible to culture some edible varieties with plants. Shaggy Mane is one of these.

 

[jaykush]

you all want to know whats more fun than reading any book or study? no matter how simple or how complex.

do your own tests and experiments....much more exciting.

 

[h.h.]

Science can only try to define magic. It can't set perimeters.

P according to the following study is more effective when broadcast over organic material than when buried and in soil contact.
http://extension.umd.edu/publications/PDFs/FS514.pdf
In her threads the Lady readily admits others (DM) having success adding P during flowering as compared to straight microbes. Whereas the level of P in her mix is perhaps either low or fixated to the point of not effecting mass microbe activity. The activity being important during veg helping the N find it's way, while in flowering, with the added PK, they are reduced to organic material buffering the P from the soil and keeping it available to the plant.

 

[maryjohn]

Well that's debatable jay. Some people get a big kick out of this stuff.

 

[guineapig]

I enjoy a lively discussion about mycorrhizae.....

Here is a picture of the association between mycorrhizae and an individual root-tip.....my biggest question is which species of mycorrhizae are the most effective at interacting with cannabis roots? most myco products have lots of different kinds of myco species, but which species has the best chance of being fully blossoming (as it were) within the soil?

i know that new species of mycorrhizae are being discovered and classified every day, so maybe we are on the verge of some new discoveries.....

kind regards from guineapig

 

[ganja din]

You seem to be speaking about some very specific breeds of fungus

I try to do the exact opposite. However, I do use specific species in examples and in cases where the topic is about a specific fungi.

You looked at the OP, who put fowarth a very simple question, and felt that to adequately answer that question the OP needs to be intimately familiar with the most cutting-edge scientific explinations currently avaliable.

I gave a simple answer first. Then I went more in depth.

That is not what he needs. He needs general practices for cultivating beneficial microbes. Does the OP give a shit what kinds of microbes they are?

I assume so by the title of his/her thread "mycorrhizae with organics"...

The discussions and matirial you bring up are very interesting. I'm sure your references are accurate and the data presented therin are representative of the most 'correct' understanding of MA fungi currently avaliable. I'm sure you could contradict all kinds of things I say and make me look like an idiot. In fact, you already have done.

That was not my intention, and I don't think that is what I did. But if you feel that way I apologize.

But the fact remains that none of this hard data is particularly meaningful to the members of ICmag at large. You said yourself that MA fungi are probobally not that great for cannabis cultivation.

We agree!

ganja din

:

What I do know is that we cultivate fucking kick ass beneficial microbes. In truth, we have no idea what kind of microbes those are. What we do know, is that they are fucking awesome for cannabis cultivation.

Great! Im stoked for you (that's honest)

But I beleive the vast majority of ICmag members are not so interested. I think what they want are easy, reliable methods for cultivating beneficial microbes.

Me too.

I don't care about any of the things you are posting about, so it was very stupid of me to argue with you about them. I guess I just picked a fight because you belittled my new favorite reference matirial. I had just finished reading that and felt totally accomplished for having understood it. Then you came along and labeled it as elementary and lacking in depth. Which made me feel dumb. And I therefore reacted, which was stupid.

Sorry about that, it was not my intention. FWIW, I never thought you were dumb, just a bit stubborn, but never dumb. I think that paper was good, and I wrote as much many times. I just wanted to try and clarify some things I though were either misrepresented or a bit incorrect. I am not saying the paper is worthless, quite the opposite, I thought it was very good, good enough to take a few days to pick apart...

So you just keep on looking into your microscope. Its people like you who advance the fields of modern scientific understanding. Where it not for blokes like you, we wouldn't have nifty gear like cars, or the world wide web. Should not have bit your head off. I tried to jump into the deep end of the pool and got what I deserved.

I would not have responded the way I did had your post not been the umpteenth post in this thread with a hostile overture. I think I took out some frustrations on your post, sorry. I am always happy to debate, and very happy to learn, and be wrong, but I don't want to make other people feel dumb or otherwise 'bad'. Sorry and I'm glad we are 'cool'

P.S. It shows your good character to write what you just did, a lot of people would have not written that, but I'm glad you did.

Later