mycorrhizae with organics

[ganja din]

ganja: what about the idea (it got lost in the bickering)

Yea sorry about that.

...that P should not be available for diffusion except from concentrated areas lower down in the soil. So a handful of bone and blood imitates a dead animal, and the rest of the mix is clean. AM could stay away from the high P area.

That is an interesting idea. And honesty, I don't' know. What I think might happen if you put it below say 10-15 cm is, if the microbes can process it well at that depth, the plant would use the P. And maybe if there was 'enough' inorganic P available the plant would 'feed' the AM fungus/gi less. But that's just wild speculation.

One thing to note here, and I think someone already did, which I will expound upon in a quote to their post, is the (old yet) loud debate about allowing raw OM (Organic Matter) like spent brewers grains to decompose within the soil vs on top of soil vs in compost pile. It is actually a VERY interesting debate, I have not weighed in on it at all, there are people who can speak about it much better than I. However, in my studies of the debate, I have come to the pliable conclusion it is best to pre-process the raw OM (in this case a.ka. "feedstock" or "input") by composting. I will post a few really great links to mailing-list discussion on this topic. Ideally, anaerobic processing of the raw OM is best. The reason being with aerobic composting, especially hot composting, total feedstock loss can be about 40-60% of total* by weight. Also, loss of nitrogen, and other elements is greater in aerobic composting vs anaerobic processing:

In the West anaerobic process is known as "ensiling" (verb), or "ensiled", and finally "silage". But we (and the East) know it as the "bokashi" process, that of fermentation. Both use Lactic Acid Bacteria (LAB) to ferment the OM below pH ~4.0. Then the OM is "stable" and called "silage" or "bokashi". The main reason for this process is the total OM lost is very little. And, the amount of initial nutrients lost, especially nitrogen loss (via "ammonification", the "volitization" of ammonia) is greatly reduced.

I for one prefer hot composting using my adapted/updated version of "Controlled Microbial Composting", not only for the general benefits, but for the increased humification and nutrient content. Not to mention the decrease in the pollution of the Earths environment through less nutrient loss. Or the increase in the Earths environment through more Co2 reclamation from the atmosphere . Adding high CEC powder like zeolite to compost reduces ammonification to a huge degree. The N gets locked in the CEC. Another tip: add up to ~6-10% gypsum, or other high Ca powder to manures or biosoilds. The Ca binds the N and helps prevent it's loss to ammonfication. It's pretty import to do this right away if collecting fresh (ie a few day old) manure, reason being fresh manure will loose up to 40-60% of it's initial nitrogen content via ammonification in a few days. The process of trying to 'keep' N, for example by having a higher C/N ratio (30/1-35/1), adding CEC powder, adding Ca powder, etc, is called "nitrogen reclamation"...I could go on for days about compost, sorry, I'll stop now

On reason I LOVE reading about the process of "ensiling": IMO it is a much more studied (at least in English) and well defined, thus more effective version of the bokashi process. And the ensiling process uses indigenous LAB, along with molasses and in many cases, wheat bran. The biggest differences between the two seem to be: a) Expense, ensiling uses free LAB, not unnecessary EM mother culture, and/or AEM, and b) stresses the proper moisture content (50-60%; 50-55% is ideal). If anyone is interested I have a bunch of great 'regular guy' great links and lots of journal articles too.

*I find that my compost piles loose about 40-50% of their starting "wet weight" (ie. total weight in pounds) at 50-55% moisture content. I make sure to keep the same moisture content throughout the entire composting process (which is about 4-6 weeks for me). FWIW, in composting the rule is to always speak of moisture content as "wet weight", or "as is". It just means we list the % which is wet, not % which is dry. And FWIW, the unit of 'wet weight' measure is called "gravimetric water content".

Speaking of which - and bacterial death leads to available P, in the for of ATP. Is this to say that microbial life must recede for AM to proliferate?

No I would not assume so, but I have not read anything to that effect. What I have read is the greater the available P within the rhizosphere, or that is otherwise immediately available to the roots, the less the plant will depend upon AM fungi for P (in most cases), and thus the plant will 'feed' the AM fungi less. As a direct result of being 'feed' less the AM fungi can become less vigorous and prolific. The first paper I uploaded speaks of this phenomenon.

And can you confirm that MA (just kidding!) are visible when the root ball is well colonized? If so, I have gotten them within 4 weeks in soil amended with bone meal. If not, I'll just keep using biotone for all the other goodies.

Yes. Did you see the pic I posted on the second page? The issue is if it's AM fungi or not. If you used dormant (ie. freeze dried) spores I have doubts it is AM fungi. But, I could be wrong. I don't want to take a side right now. But if you added 'a good amount' of bone meal that further influences my doubts...

All the best

 

[ganja din]

In her threads the Lady readily admits others (DM) having success adding P during flowering as compared to straight microbes. Whereas the level of P in her mix is perhaps either low or fixated to the point of not effecting mass microbe activity. The activity being important during veg helping the N find it's way, while in flowering, with the added PK, they are reduced to organic material buffering the P from the soil and keeping it available to the plant.

Im sorry. I don't know what your question is.

 

[ganja din]

A quick note: Whew, gotta catch up on reading!

Yea this thread kind of caught fire, ha. Here are three posts of mine I think you will find particulaury interetsing:

1) https://icmag.com/ic/showpost.php?p=2743503&postcount=56

Re: a journal article I just found:

"Towards Growth of Arbuscular Mycorrhizal Fungi Independent of a Plant Host"
Ulrich Hildebrandt, Katharina Janetta, and Hermann Bothe
Botanisches Institut, Universität zu Köln, D-50923 Cologne, Germany
2002, American Society for Microbiology

And some other cool journal article about intracellular bacteria within AM fungi mycelium. And little bacteria that 'eat' the outer layer of AM fungi spore, the assumption by the researchres is it facilites spore germetion.


2) Re: Info on Luebke composting:
https://icmag.com/ic/showpost.php?p=2751968&postcount=109


3) Re: More info on Luebke composting, and info on ensiling and bokashi process. ALong with info about the 'best' application of raw OM:
https://icmag.com/ic/showpost.php?p=2753381&postcount=121



As usall, I'd be grateful if you let me know if you find any errors, etc. THanks!

Quickly, I like to consider fungal hyphae as beneficial if 6 microns and thickier to be on the safe side. Elaine says >3 microns.

Thanks for that.

 

[otherwhitemeat]

I thought that while I had all these heavy hitters in one place (yep, pun intended)

I'd ask what people think about the impact of Neem on soil biology. Neem is known to suppress fingal growth and this paper seems to say that fungal populations are affected by application.

Effects of Neem Extracts on Soil Properties, Microbial Populations and Leaf Area...
http://medwelljournals.com/fulltext/rja/2008/12-17.pdf

Is Neem known to kill myccorizhal fungi? It sure does work for things like PM.

 

[maryjohn]

I have officially sworn off neem soil drenches.

hey ganja, I have some EM brewing in my cab, just above the lights. my first bucket is full and just sitting, and I'm waiting for a second bucket. I will be feeding a bit at a time to my worm bins.

for zero runoff, try the worm bin bag design found at instructables.com make the bottom cord and sleeve very strong.

I need to take a picture of the effect of bokashi bran on the worms. it's like spaghetti at the surface If I sprinkle it on.

 

[h.h.]

Im sorry. I don't know what your question is.

Just some random thoughts as to how you and the Lady might both be right.
As for the question, I just want to make it clear that I have no idea what I'm talking about should anybody mistake me for one talking from expertise. I simply leave my comments open for discussion.

 

[ganja din]

I enjoy a lively discussion about mycorrhizae.....

Cool pic.

my biggest question is which species of mycorrhizae are the most effective at interacting with cannabis roots?

Well, current science finds that AM fungi are not all that host specific. For example, most any species of AM fungi can form a mycorrhiza association to just about any mycorrhizal plant/tree/etc. I am sure there are exception to the the rule, but in general, as long as the plant is mycorrhzial than AM fungi should be able to form mycorrhzia association with it (aka infect it).

Now, if considering which species is best in general I have read "Glomus intrarcidaties" (I spelled that from memory so I might have misspelled it) has the widest range of acceptable pH, and seems to be a rather 'hardy' species compared to others. That is why, imo, most AM fungi products contain it. G.mosseae is also good, and it's nice to support the current 'god mother' of AM fungi research

which is most myco products have lots of different kinds of myco species, but which species has the best chance of being fully blossoming (as it were) within the soil?

See my above paragraphs. The biggest concern IMO, is that it does not contain Trichodarma spp.. The jury is still out on weather its wise or not to co-inoculate Trichoderma spp. spores with AM fungi spores. I am on the 'don't do it side', with the caveat both are freeze dried or otherwise equally dormant. I think PlantSucess powder has not Trichorderma, but I am not positive.

Another point worth mentioning: Try to find an AM fungi product which is not powder or micronzied, glandular is better. Spores are best if they are not ground and pulverized. In my readings chunkier carriers are best.

Below is were I suggest you order AM fungi inoculum from. I would highly suggest you order the liquid root dip if rooting cuttings from an aero-cloner for example, or 'paint' it on the root ball when transplanting. If not the liquid than I would get their granular product. I have spoken with Dr. Mike, and he knows what he's doing for sure. Although, he does offer products with Trichoderma but I think it's because he's a businessman too. FYI, I think the liquid might have live propagules, or maybe not...

http://www.mycorrhizae.com/index.php?cid=555 ("prop" = propagules)

If going liquid get "MycoApply® Liquid Endo"

• Liquid Suspension - pass a #70 screen
• 4 Species Endo (3.6 million prop/gallon)

If going grandular get "MycoApply® Endo/Ecto"

• 4 Species Endo (60,000 prop/lb)
• 7 Species Ecto (110 million prop/lb)

i know that new species of mycorrhizae are being discovered and classified every day, so maybe we are on the verge of some new discoveries.....

Lets hope so. Now that AM fungi has been cultured and even sporulated on agar without a host it gonna open up a lot of doors. That is if the process is found to be sufficient.


BTW, while I was getting the product info I also copied the url for Dr. Mike's collection of AM fungi research: (Im pretty sure all research has been conduced on Endo or Endo/Ecto only products)
http://www.mycorrhizae.com/index.php?cid=167



Here is a great page (with graphs, etc) on their site about a independent study comparing their product vs 7 other commercial available products. BUT, please note in the study Dr. Mike used the 'endo' only mix, no Trichoderma, to me that speaks volumes The studies he uses as proof would probably use his 'best' product... http://www.mycorrhizae.com/index.php?cid=139&

kind regards from guineapig

Right back at ya

 

[ganja din]

@ gunieapig

Would I be out of place by asking this thread be place in the "Organic Soil Reference Library" sticky?

Thanks

 

[vonforne]

Looks like school has began. This i way over my head ATM but........

If AM fungi is not effective for us.....then why are we talking about one specific fungi? I believe the the approach by the Lady could be termed as the ´Shotgun` approach which we all seem to follow.

With new fungi being discovered every day, how are we to know which ones benefit the type of plant and environment that we grow in?

ganja din No I am not a Moderator but I will ask if the thread can be moved.

V

 

[ganja din]

I have officially sworn off neem soil drenches.

hey ganja, I have some EM brewing in my cab, just above the lights. my first bucket is full and just sitting, and I'm waiting for a second bucket.

Cool! I would suggest a few things which I have found and which I find help very much. You may know this already, but if not I hope you find it useful:

1) Ferment in a container with a small (width) mouth. I ferment AEM in gallon jugs.

2) Place a aquarium heater in the AEM water mix. Make sure you don't get a kind with auto-shutoff at a certain temp. I use the cheapest ones from Walmart which are for upto 5 gallon tank. Place the heater in the water, with the same heater it will keep ~0.9 gallon of water at ~90F all the time. That is good. The microbes are "mesophelic", that is they prefer temps around 100-135F (there abouts). Thus by heating the water you are proving the LAB and PnSB and yeast, etc, the perfect temp, they will reproduce a lot faster.

3) place a 60-100 watt light bulb (incandescent) about 5-10" from the gallon jug. Leave it on 24/7. This helps the PnSB reproduce, otherwise you will have a lot of LAB and yeast with fewer PnSB. The goal is 4-6k Kelvin at 900-1000 lux. (let me check my notes re: lux. But the specturn is correct)

4) add a bit of hydrolyzed fish, this feeds the PnSB.

5) I like to use this ratio of EM Mother Culture:molasses:water = 1:0.8:16

6) To keep your mix anaerobic as you can pour a layer of mineral oil over the water, so it forms a layer of about 0.5-1 inch thick. This prevent gasses from entering the mix, but allows gasses to exit the mix. This step is important, imo, because I find it lowers the amount of 'yeast' buildup on the solution surface.

7) When 'using' the AEM, buy a cheap air-hose, the kind for a aquarium air-pump, I think it's 1/4". Then siphon out the AEM (after a bit of mixing with the hose) into a container. Try to keep the down-end of the hose right against the bottom of the receiving container. Once the AEM starts to fill the container place the down-end of the hose under the AEM so less oxygen is mixed. (if you have ever siphoned gas from a car you know what to do )

8) usage: I like to use AEM at 1:20 to 1:50. Most people like to use AEM at 1:100, etc. I think MicrobeMan like to use AEM (when he rarely does) at 1:10, or less. (but don't quote me on that!)

9) If you only want to ferment items then you can skip step 3 and 4.

I will be feeding a bit at a time to my worm bins.

Feeding what? Are you going to ferment bokashi inoculum* and feed them that? If you are planning to 'feed' them bokashi inoculum I would only apply a little at a time. I have also done this in my vermiculture bins, but, alas, mold got the best of the wheat bran. The issue was pH. I didn't want to add a 'food' which is so low in pH, so I include extra wheat bran to 'cut' the intensity. The mold must have attacked the non-fermented wheat bran. Regardless, was a bad move. I would suggest against it. One main issue being the % water content of bokashi inoculum, which is usually >60%. But, YMMV, best of luck!

FWIW, you probably already know this, but others might not: worms don't 'eat' most all 'food' placed in the bin. The consume it, but only so they can 'eat' the microbes, mostly bacteria, on the 'food' placed in the bin. So, it's best to add very well diced/minced 'food'.

A tip I find is help: Place the 'food' in the freezer until it's frozen solid. This makes the cells expand and helps degrade its' structure. Once thawed, the 'food' will be much more easily consumed by the worms. I put thawed 'food' outside, at ground level, for a few days so it can collect lots of microbes.

*eg. fermented wheat bran, this is the ratio I usually use: 1:0.25:5 ratio of AEM:molasses:water. With the ratio I use I can add 'just a little' bit of water so the wheat bran has 45-55% water content. Here is a great page telling how to simply test % water content of a substance. If you don't have a food dehydrator, or oven, you can use a microwave set to high. Place a half full glass of water in the microwave with the substance to be tested. Run for 8-10 minutes. But, using a oven or food dehydrator is ideal. If using a food dehydrator use ~105-110F for 24 hours. But, if using a oven then use 150F for 14-18 hours is usually good, unless you can set your oven to 105-110F.

Cornell U, Dept. of Compost Science and Engineering:

How to test % moisture content, and other more complicated stuff:
http://compost.css.cornell.edu/calc/moisture_content.html

for zero runoff, try the worm bin bag design found at instructables.com make the bottom cord and sleeve very strong.

Yea I've seen that. Neat idea.

But, do you mean to ferment wheat bran in it? Or use it for vermiculture? If it's to be used to ferment wheat bran I would be concerned with the amount of oxygen that could permiate into the wheat bran...

I need to take a picture of the effect of bokashi bran on the worms. it's like spaghetti at the surface If I sprinkle it on.

What is? The vermicast? The wheat bran?

A funny thing is feeding them carrot pulp from juiced carrots. The worms can turn orange! I had some tiger worms and the orange inside with the stipes look soooo cool


GL, you sound like you have some great things going!

 

[ganja din]

I'd ask what people think about the impact of Neem on soil biology. Neem is known to suppress fingal growth and this paper seems to say that fungal populations are affected by application.

As MJ wrote, it can harm 'good' and 'bad' microbes.

To control PM have your tried repeated applications of well made (and tested) ACT? Dr. Elaine Ingham states (believe) that it's the fungi from ACT which offer the most protection from PM (for example). Supposedly fungi can survive longer in the phyllosphere than bacteria (from ACT), according to Elaine (I think). More than a few people have told me that AEM has help prevent/stop PM...

GL

 

[ganja din]

If AM fungi is not effective for us.....then why are we talking about one specific fungi?

For other plants we grow? Or for permaculture, or forest reclamation projects, mycoremediation, etc? ...'Cuz it's phun?

I believe the the approach by the Lady could be termed as the ´Shotgun` approach which we all seem to follow.

I fully agree.

With new fungi being discovered every day, how are we to know which ones benefit the type of plant and environment that we grow in?

We don't, that's why with ACT (for example) most people do not try to identity microbes, only count them, total numbers and 'active' numbers.
All the best

 

[quadracer]

Great! I really like the idea too. I am in contact with the Luebke US liaison and main contact. But he doesn't like to be 'in the loop' anymore. Though I do have some 'inside' info, for example, the only reason CMC suggest adding "clay-loam" is to make sure the clay aggregates well by virtue of the loam and sand fractions. I use zeolite in place of clay the Luebke suggest. Natural clay has a CEC around 20-30, zeolite has a CEC around 200-300, or greater. And the CEC of the clay is it's main function in the formation of the "clay-humus crumb", which is really a aggregate of clay in which humus has been bound, along with some Ca, both with and without the assistance of microbes. This "clay-humus crumb' is the main goal of 'humus management' in farming systems. CMC compost has humic levels not found in 'regular' hot compost. And some other things I wont say right now . I have other great paper on that topic I could see about PMing you a link or something.

That would be great, thank you.

Not in those terms if I understand you correctly. A AM fungus will not 'leave' a host plant it has a mycorrhiza association with. However, AM fungus X can form a mycorrhiza association with many, if not nearly all, mycorrhizal plants, just not at the same time.

So

Well if you are referring to inoculating a few container of soil (for example), and you used live spores, mycelium/hyphae and infected host root (eg. "propagules") then from what I have read initial infection can happen in a week or two, if the AM fungus inoculum is very near the rhizosphere. And full infection, which is really about about 60-80% infection of total root mass, seems to happen around week 5 to week 10. But I have not read any studies on freeze dried spores. Though I am sure some must exist. I will look tomorrow and try to read up. Regardless, if the inoculum is only freeze dried spores then the time line will be extend more than a little I think.

Cool. I am using live spores. Can AM fungi form a mycelium without a host root?

Most 'tree root' fungi, like truffles, etc, (if that is what your are referring to) are "ectomycorrhizal" fungi, essentially meaning 'above ground fruiting', or so. They do not form the same type of symbiotic relationship as AM fungi, and have far, far fewer associations to plants and trees.

Yes I was. What role would ectomycorrhizal fungi play with cannabis? Do any of the AM fungi produce a mushroom?

I think you are comparing apples to oranges. If you are trying to utilize the 'wild mushrooms' then it won't work, they are not mycorrhizal fungi in most cases, unless they are associated to a tree. You will not find fruiting mycorrhizal fungi 'in the open'. But if you mean you put the seedlings next to tree roots and hope that fungi from the soil will 'infect' the tree it still won't happen. Fruiting mycorrhizal fungi are "ectomycorrhizal" fungi, not AM fungi. One can't do the work of the other.

Yeah, I am using specific trees and specific mushrooms, I.E. Live oak with Chanterelles, Ponderosa Pine with Boletus Edulis, Manzanita with Leccinum Manzanitae, etc.

I am concerned about whether there is already an ectomycorrhizal fungi association that would prevent the species I introduce from grabbing hold. But could I also start seedlings in areas where I know have certain mushrooms?

Could be. Depends upon where you get the soil from. Chances are good if your in prairie lands, old tree forests (esp out west), some marsh lands, etc. Those natural places are usually loaded with AM, if they have been undisturbed for many years and not isolated like NY Central Park, haha...

Well I know that EM fungi can fruit far away from the actual tree, where the roots can still stretch out. How far can fungi stretch out from a host trees roots?

On what exactly? I am still a bit unclear as to your goals. I might have a few papers, if not I could probably find a bunch. I have free access to tons and tons and tons of journal papers through an amazing library system, in hardcover and digital

My goal is to get EM mushrooms to fruit under their corresponding host. Any studies/papers on that would be amazing.

Again, I think you are trying to make an AM fungi do what only ectomycorrhizal fungi does...or am I mistaken?

You are right. I am still interested to know what type of effect ectomycorrhizal fungi play with cannabis though. Also, there are some cool journals that deal with the subject. Mycorrhiza and Mycoscience. Have you read those? Semms like there is a wealth of knowledge in those.

Thanks again.

 

[vonforne]

For other plants we grow? Or for permaculture, or forest reclamation projects, mycoremediation, etc? ...'Cuz it's phun?

I guess I should rephrase that

Since this is a Cannabis forum and normally we do not discuss forest reclamation much, then why are we talking about one species that is known not to benefit cannabis? I do believe it is fun. Reading all the enormousness papers you guys write is quit enjoyable. Is there even any research in your area dealing with cannabis? Do you have a couple links fr us?

Thanks in advance.

Oh....and I grow cannabis........

'Cuz it's phun?

 

[quadracer]

I guess I should rephrase that

Since this is a Cannabis forum and normally we do not discuss forest reclamation much, then why are we talking about one species that is known not to benefit cannabis? I do believe it is fun. Reading all the enormousness papers you guys write is quit enjoyable. Is there even any research in your area dealing with cannabis? Do you have a couple links fr us?

Thanks in advance.

Oh....and I grow cannabis........

That's what I like about the organic forum. It hits on many topics that really have nothing to do with cannabis, but fit into organic gardening in general.

 

[ganja din]

@ ALL

One last thing for today. As we have been discussing advanced composting techniques and Luebke composting (CMC), I thought I would offer a location to get compost fleece. I will not make compost without fleece (aka compost blanket or cover), it makes such a huge difference in the amont of fungal growth...my compost pile are COVERED in fungi, they just love that the compost pile crust is under the fleece, perfect for fungi. And it repels rain.

And to me one of the biggest benefits of using a fleece is it helps prevent the piles' % moisture content from getting too low (<45% moisture content), which stops the composting process. If one builds a proper hot pile the evaporation of water during the initial heating phase, where "peak heating" can read 170F for a number of days, will totally dry out the piles' core...bad, bad, bad. That is why 'high quality' pile should be turned and water once every two days* until the temp drops to "thermophilic" stage (~135F-155F). The thermophilic stage is where the majority of feedstock degradation takes place. Without a fleece my piles' core will dry out in two days...
*CMC says once a day for the first 7 days but to imo that is too often and can hinder fungi to a large degree.

BTW, % moisture content of compost (initial pile) *needs* to be 45-60%. But, it should be 50-55% moisture content during the whole composting process, even during maturation (ie curing). I wrote about finding % moisture content a few posts back, see that for more info.

To all those who will yell at me for saying it's OK for compost pile to read temps over 155F, please read this, it is *amazing* (to me at least). The report definitely makes the claim, with solid evidence, that it's now normal and fine for the peak heating phase to reach 170F..."hyperthermophies" to the rescue!

(I also have a bunch of journal articles, re: the biology of composting, etc. I found many sources which back up my belief it's OK, and now normal to have peak heating into 170F. After all, it's mostly the bacteria genus Bacillus spp. which does most of the OM (Organic Matter) reduction during the compost process. The reason that is important to know, is the Bacillus spp. can/do from "endospores" if the temp in the pile gets too high. And some fungi also has similar methods to survive hostile conditions. Anyway, once the temp reaches the thermophilic stage (135F-155F) the Bacillus spp. endospores will 'germinate' (along with fungi), and they start the most important part of the hot composting process.


"The Microbial Wold: Thermophilic microogansism"
By Jim Deacon
Institute of Cell and Molecular Biolgy, The University of Edinburgh
http://www.biology.ed.ac.uk/research/groups/jdeacon/microbes/thermo.htm

Temperature ranges of microorganisms Microorganisms can be grouped into broad (but not very precise) categories, according to their temperature ranges for growth.

• Psychrophiles (cold-loving) can grow at 0oC, and some even as low as -10oC; their upper limit is often about 25oC.
• Mesophiles grow in the moderate temperature range, from about 20oC (or lower) to 45oC.
• Thermophiles are heat-loving, with an optimum growth temperature of 50oC or more, a maximum of up to 70oC or more, and a minimum of about 20oC.
• Hyperthermophiles have an optimum above 75oC and thus can grow at the highest temperatures tolerated by any organism. An extreme example is the genus Pyrodictium, found on geothermally heated areas of the seabed. It has a temperature minimum of 82oC, optimum of 105o and growth maximum of 110oC.

The Canadian version of compost fleece is called "Composttex", and it's good stuff!


When I start windrow composting next summer I am going to buy a lot of this stuff. It's pretty cheap if you buy the Canadian version, not the European version. Compost fleece is common in Europe, many laws require it's use.

In the US, the USCC (US Composting Council) has had discussions about requiring compost fleece in certain compost situations and with certain feedstocks.

This stuff is cheap. I got a stip about 50-60 feet long, which from memory is about 10-12 feet wide. And the seller will pre-cut for free! And he will send you the fleece, trusting you will send him money right after you get the fleece. I can't say enough good things about compost fleece, or the following company. Steven, the owner of the company has tries with the Luebke family and is trained in Controlled Microbial Composting. But, currently he only uses compost fleece and daily pile turning, no the inputs the Luekbe family suggest.


The covers:
http://www.cvcompost.com/?p=ccovers


Research complied by Steven regarding composting and compost covers...they do so much more than cover compost!
http://www.cvcompost.com/?p=research


Please let me know if anyone already uses compost fleece, or if they plan to


BTW If people need compost Steven is always a good source to hit up! The compost the produces is great. Though, I'm not sure of microbial numbers, you would want to test it...

HTH

 

[ganja din]

I guess I should rephrase that

Since this is a Cannabis forum and normally we do not discuss forest reclamation much, then why are we talking about one species that is known not to benefit cannabis? I do believe it is fun. Reading all the enormousness papers you guys write is quit enjoyable. Is there even any research in your area dealing with cannabis? Do you have a couple links fr us?

Well the reason we are discussing AM fungi is that's what "tastyfrost" wanted to know about. But, I think this topic has veered pretty far off-topic Ive written much about advanced composting, bokashi, EM, proper (to me) and currently correct Cannabis taxonomy and nomenclature, that DM Penetrator (regular and gold) is a scam, how to help fight off PM from attacking cannabis, other things I forgot I wrote about, etc.

Papers specific to cannabis you ask? Well yes I have two, one I already wrote about and references on my second post . However, all the studies of other plants, esp. tomato, etc, are directly applicable to Cannabis spp. So even though the studies don't say cannabis, they do say tomato, etc. The key is I believe (I have not seen any evidence) that Cannabis spp. (or at least C.indica and C.sativa) are "facultative" mycorrhizal plants, many annual and "herbaceous" plants are. That means they do well with AM fungi, but they don't need AM fungi like a "obligate" mycorrhizal plant/tree would.

Do that make sense?


"The arbuscular mycorrhizal fungus Glomus mosseae induces growth and metal accumulation changes in Cannabis sativa L"
Author(s): CITTERIO Sandra ; PRATO Nadia; FUMAGALLI Pietro; AINA Roberta; MASSA Nadia; SANTAGOSTINO Angela; SGORBATI Sergio; BERTA Graziella, Department of Environmental Sciences, University of Milano-Bicocca
Piazza della Scienza n.1, 20126 Milan, ITALIE

http://cat.inist.fr/?aModele=afficheN&cpsidt=16594070

Abstract:

The effect of arbuscular mycorrhiza on heavy metal uptake and translocation was investigated in Cannabis sativa. Hemp was grown in the presence and absence of 100 μg g-1 Cd and Ni and 300 μg g-1 Cr(VI), and inoculated or not with the arbuscular mycorrhizal fungus Glomus mosseae. In our experimental condition, hemp growth was reduced in inoculated plants and the reduction was related to the degree of mycorrhization. The percentage of mycorrhizal colonisation was 42% and 9% in plants grown in non-contaminated and contaminated soil, suggesting a significant negative effect of high metal concentrations on plant infection by G. mosseae. Soil pH, metal bioavailability and plant metal uptake were not influenced by mycorrhization. The organ metal concentrations were not statistically different between inoculated and non-inoculated plants, apart from Ni which concentration was significantly higher in stem and leaf of inoculated plants grown in contaminated soil. The distribution of absorbed metals inside plant was related to the soil heavy metal concentrations: in plant grown in non-contaminated soil the greater part of absorbed Cr and Ni was found in shoots and no significant difference was determined between inoculated and non-inoculated plants. On the contrary, plants grown in artificially contaminated soil accumulated most metal in root organ. In this soil, mycorrhization significantly enhanced the translocation of all the three metals from root to shoot. The possibility to increase metal accumulation in shoot is very interesting for phytoextraction purpose, since most high producing biomass plants, such as non-mycorrhized hemp, retain most heavy metals in roots, limiting their application.

"Adaptive Significance of endomycorrhizas for herbaceous plants"
Author(s): V. A. Mukhin and A. A. BetekhtinaInstitute of Plant and Animal Ecology, Ural Division,
Russian Academy of Scienes, ul. Vos'mogo Marta 202, Yekaterinburg, 620144, Russia



http://www.springerlink.com/content/f7l4273546347435/

Abstract:

It has been shown that endomycorrhizas are found in the majority of herbaceous plants, but their adaptive significance is ambiguous. As a rule, the degree of development of plants and their parts, cenotic status of the species, and species diversity of plant community manifest no definitely positive correlation with the level of mycorrhiza development on root systems. Interactions between the partners in most cases can be classified as indifferent or negative.

Thanks in advance.

Your welcome.

 

[maryjohn]

ganja i can't keep up with all you quoting. how do you do that?

anyway, I brew my EM in 1 litre seltzer bottles. I only fill them 9/10ths of the way, then before closing I squeeze the liquid up to the cap and hold as I seal it. It's easy to keep tabs. I use ph paper to test for 3.5.

My incubator has light and heat, temps depend on veg or flower but always warm.

I am asking about feeding fermented trash to the worms. not A-EM

Actually though, the worm bin bag has no problem with mold, as it breathes and does not get that wet. Keeping it moist enough is a problem with Coco. MIght need to try more trash. Currently I have to water it (I use fish hydrolysate).

Otherwise what I am giving them is the inoculated bran. It helps my plastic bins a lot, and when you pull off the cover it looks like a bowl of spaghetti. they are all rolling in it. you gotta try it.

 

[ganja din]

ganja i can't keep up with all you quoting. how do you do that?

What do you mean?

anyway, I brew my EM in 1 litre seltzer bottles. I only fill them 9/10ths of the way, then before closing I squeeze the liquid up to the cap and hold as I seal it. It's easy to keep tabs. I use ph paper to test for 3.5.

Are you experienced at fermenting EM into AEM? The list of 1-9 I gave you provides what I consider to be the most ideal AEM. What do you mean "it's easy to keep tabs"? I think you may misunderstand some important issues when fermenting AEM. I find most people do not really understand what's going on and why, thus the final product is much less than it could be. I'm not trying to dog on you, I bet your AEM is good, I just find that Japanese concepts and words do not translate all that well into English when we are read info about "nuclear energy" (or something very similar) as Dr. Higa is famously quoted as calming is one attribute of EM See what I mean?

I have done probably my most extensive background research on EM and anaerobic processes than any other 'biological horticultural' topic I have looked into. EM was my 'into' into biological horticulture years ago. But still, about the only people I have found who know really well what's up with EM is our very own MicrobeMan and his buddies Vinny Pinto and Steve Diver. Those three gentleman are considered by many, (esp. Mr. Pinto) as experts in the field. Vinny has been to Japan to train with Dr. Higa's students (unless I'm mistaken, MM?). The owner of SCD World also used to work for/study under Dr. Higa in Japan. Regardless, my point is most info on EM and fermenting it into AEM gets the job done, but to me, is missing a lot...

Have you read Vinny Pinto's EM site? If not you must. Not only is he probably one of the most expert English speakers on EM, but his site is very well put together. Besides myself, MicrobeMan, Steve Diver, some kind people at SCD World and those at EMRO EM, Vinny Pinto is the English 'EM master', haha. Now, I'm not claiming there are no other people more knowledgeable about EM, I am just saying I have never heard of them. I have less knowledge about EM than most, if not all people I listed, or so I assume.


Vinny Pinto on EM:
http://eminfo.vmicrobial.info/moreem1.html


FWIW, if all you are doing is fermenting 'trash' then you would do just as well, and save a good bit of money, but culturing Lactic Acid Bacteria (LAB) at home. Gil Cardang (sp?) wrote the method his teacher taught him. I think there is a big thread here somewhere at LAB. If you ferment your own LAB then my list of 1-9 is still the way to go, omit sets for PnSB, eg. 3 and 4. No need for light with hydrolyzed fish wihtout PnSB.

My incubator has light and heat, temps depend on veg or flower but always warm.

Great.

I am asking about feeding fermented trash to the worms. not A-EM

Ah. I thought you were asking about feeding straight bokashi inoculum (aka fermented wheat bran). Feeding fermented OM (organic matter) is a good idea. But, you may want to 'cut' it with non-fermented OM too. Bokashi (fermented OM) has a low pH (as you know) and worms don't really thrive in that low of a pH.

I think there is a problem with the term and definition of "bokashi". In Japanese it means a few things. Pretty much 'fermented organic matter', or something similar. But, in English I think we need a few terms. That is why I like to use the term:

• "bokashi inoculum" = when referring to fermented wheat bran
• "bokashi" = a verb, the fermentation process. Please note, bokashi is not compost. I know you didn't say it was. But bokashi (the anaerobic process of fermentation) is often referred to as "bokashi composting", which it is not.
• "bokashi" = a noun, the fermented OM (organic matter), not compost.

What you do you think?

Actually though, the worm bin bag has no problem with mold, as it breathes and does not get that wet.

Great.

Keeping it moist enough is a problem with Coco.

Coco? As in coco coir? May I ask why you are including coco coir? I have read a few random recommendations to use coir but I would not suggest it. Worms consume their bedding, and coco coir is not that digestible (lignin issues), when compared to shredded newspaper, cardboard, etc. The lignin in the paper is easier for the worms and microbes to handle.

Currently I have to water it (I use fish hydrolysate).

Hydrolyzed fish in what? Your worm bin? Why? They are not 'meat eaters'.

Otherwise what I am giving them is the inoculated bran. It helps my plastic bins a lot,

Great.

...and when you pull off the cover it looks like a bowl of spaghetti. they are all rolling in it. you gotta try it.

What looks like spagatti?...



HTH

 

[ganja din]

I have gotten a couple of PM asking about the HD video camera I referred to, so I figured I would also post the info here:

The camera:
Canon Vixia HF S100 ~$1,000.00

You also need an adapter so you can use it with the microscope from MM, if that's the one you have. For that Canon you need a $375.00 adapter. You need the "Martian Microscope" adapter "MM-58":
http://www.martinmicroscope.com/New MM Page.htm

GL