jamaican "lambsbread"

[BC LONE WOLF]

Yes, I am looking forward to growing an actual sativa. I haven't had much luck with seed banks in this regard. On the left is the JLB I started with, not Roms, (a little frostbite from being in the snow). On the far right is Anesia's Panama Red (advertised as a pure landrace sativa). View attachment 18941655

I know exactly what your saying, but give them some time, some of these hybrid sativas advertised as pure do put broad leaf phenos during their younger veg cycle but I’ve seen them reshape narrow leaves once flower. I think it’s recessive traits from breeding broad leaf genotypes.

But it’s also obvious that once you see narrow leaf pheno from seed it’s a real pure or almost unadulterated genotypes.

The hybrid I am running started broad leaf, and the males are as well. It’s not what I would consider a pure Sativa narrow leaf but once flower cycle started and sex expressions the female does look and act narrow leaf sativa. For me that’s phenotypic plasticity.

I think the males have stronger incidence in predictable pheno traits than most people think. A better male selection ?? Or should I say reschedule parameters to chose male pollen donors..?

That’s why I started making my own seed/genetics, way better for me to predict my results by looking at my population and donors; rather than leaving it to the other people that well… most of us have lost trust in what they say the did, in terms of breeding and descriptions.

It’s starting to be the norm to say what has been done down the line (f3-f10-f45??), backcross, selfed ? Still the industry doesn’t say much about male populations.

Anyway… just rambling here man. We all have been there disappointed on genetics out there.

 

[Thcvhunter]

Very informative article/study on Hemp arriving to Americas. I sure accept all theories on it.

I have to say as Native South American (Venezuelan born and raised), I found in my adulthood that our history has been fucked with by the Colonial empires. Much of our ancestral lineages, culture, rituals, life style and so on, have been intensively manipulated, re arranged and edited, as part of the unrightful missappropiation of the resources and the organized way los pueblos de las Americas were thriving on their own.

As many things claimed to be invented, discovered or put in place by colonialsm, I still chose to beleive Drug type cannabis existed in the vast universe that was the Americas, dating back to pre colonial dates pre 1500. Most of the modern information on America starts with Colonial arrival as they had the "tecnology" to document their findings. Everything was set in place to make the Kingdoms thrive, and goes as far as introducing non native species or domesticated ones to wipe out endemic non profit making crops already in place and used by the many indigenous peoples scattered everywhere from Nunavut to Patagonia.

Once again I beleive its historicaly accurate that Indian Hemp arrived to America with the slave boats, between 1500-1800. But there is almost no data of what was there before occupation.


Its a very passionate subject to disccuss, espcially Cannabis being the link between us all.

Ive been spending time with Native American communities, namely the Native American Church.

What I was told resonates with what you say - its always been here.
There was a well established trading network between N and S Americas, similar to the Silk Road, and sometimes was refered to as the Tobacco Road by some I talked with.
The Lakota (Natives of the Dakotas of USA) have an oral history going back 60,000 years. They speak of pan-global travel and trade going as far back as their origin stories. For them, cannabis was more akin to how the sub-Saharan Africans used cannabis - as a conduit to the after-life realm and so was usually used sparingly. If you've ever been on a high dose mushroom trip and then smoked cannabis a few hours into the peak, you may see why it wasnt used in every ceremony.
So, for sure there is a pre-Colonial history that is absent from any written accounts. I mean, being Scandinavian born in America, I was raised on stories of Erik the Red and his son Leif exploring USA 500yrs before Columbus bought a crudely drawn map from a Scandinavian and starting his conquest, but was always scolded by my teachers for reiterating things in class that werent in our textbooks. Just like how Austro-Asian cannabis is a thing (NLDA) and how there was extensive travel and trading from Australia, Asia, India, and Madagascar, which is why Zamal looks more like Indian and AUS genetics than Malawi or Mozambique.
Though, there sure was a fresh influx of genetics that came along with Euro-Asian's reintroduction to the Americas as we can see with Brazilian and Jamaican being so influenced by Indian and SW/WS African genetics

 

[Wwbsox]

I know exactly what your saying, but give them some time, some of these hybrid sativas advertised as pure do put broad leaf phenos during their younger veg cycle but I’ve seen them reshape narrow leaves once flower. I think it’s recessive traits from breeding broad leaf genotypes.

But it’s also obvious that once you see narrow leaf pheno from seed it’s a real pure or almost unadulterated genotypes.

The hybrid I am running started broad leaf, and the males are as well. It’s not what I would consider a pure Sativa narrow leaf but once flower cycle started and sex expressions the female does look and act narrow leaf sativa. For me that’s phenotypic plasticity.

I think the males have stronger incidence in predictable pheno traits than most people think. A better male selection ?? Or should I say reschedule parameters to chose male pollen donors..?

That’s why I started making my own seed/genetics, way better for me to predict my results by looking at my population and donors; rather than leaving it to the other people that well… most of us have lost trust in what they say the did, in terms of breeding and descriptions.

It’s starting to be the norm to say what has been done down the line (f3-f10-f45??), backcross, selfed ? Still the industry doesn’t say much about male populations.

Anyway… just rambling here man. We all have been there disappointed on genetics out there.

I know exactly what you are saying, BC.

I've grown some other sativas that started out more indica looking, until the flip, then looked straight up sativa. Not going to throw these out, but not going to include them in any breeding. The PR, although not pure sativa, from the smoke reports I have read gives the same effect I remember from smoking it.

Hoping to find a stellar, stable male for the JLB. After years of killing male plants, or only growing feminized, I'm looking forward to breeding my own and having more control over the genetics.

On another note, the wife has asked for a greenhouse this spring. How can I deny her. I'll even get her one bigger than she wants. What to do with that extra space? Might just try @Roms Caribbean Dream this year.

Peace

 

[Normannen]

I know exactly what you are saying, BC.

I've grown some other sativas that started out more indica looking, until the flip, then looked straight up sativa

I still owe Charlie Garcia an apology over this misunderstanding because it happened with one of my Destroyers...

 

[BC LONE WOLF]

I still owe Charlie Garcia an apology over this misunderstanding because it happened with one of my Destroyers...

May I ask if the breeder disclosed the use of BroadLeaf most of the time “fast finish” genotype to cross his Destroyer?

I had the same morphology change with a Super lemon Haze and with the mango biche/ lambs bread. But we are talking big early fan leaves being too broad to qualify as “Sativa dominant” than once the sex expression arrive the pheno takes a turn and swaps the foliage almost completely.

I have also had the plant start very narrow and stay narrow.

So something is going on there in the archetypal build of the line.

If a line has a broad leaf trait it had to be put in there purposely ?? I can’t see a plant morph into something that’s not written in the gene code.

Just theories, I have no way to validate my thoughts…

 

[Normannen]

May I ask if the breeder disclosed the use of BroadLeaf most of the time “fast finish” genotype to cross his Destroyer?

I had the same morphology change with a Super lemon Haze and with the mango biche/ lambs bread. But we are talking big early fan leaves being too broad to qualify as “Sativa dominant” than once the sex expression arrive the pheno takes a turn and swaps the foliage almost completely.

I have also had the plant start very narrow and stay narrow.

So something is going on there in the archetypal build of the line.

If a line has a broad leaf trait it had to be put in there purposely ?? I can’t see a plant morph into something that’s not written in the gene code.

Just theories, I have no way to validate my thoughts…

well, they were sativa broad leaves, as I have had a way to study how and when they express in Mexican and Colombian, my conclusion is that there is an adaptatability that has not been crossed out for aesthetic purposes as is the case of most domesticated weed. If we go to the mexican threads just on this forum we can observe many mexican sativas express "wide leaflets" but if inspected properly these have little in common with their Afghani counterpart and tend to be (strong emphasis on TEND) more symilar to south hymalayan "multipurpose" cultivars, that are easily adaptible to shifting climes during the season, compared to either full narrow or full wide leaflet cultivars.

 

[BC LONE WOLF]

well, they were sativa broad leaves, as I have had a way to study how and when they express in Mexican and Colombian, my conclusion is that there is an adaptatability that has not been crossed out for aesthetic purposes as is the case of most domesticated weed. If we go to the mexican threads just on this forum we can observe many mexican sativas express "wide leaflets" but if inspected properly these have little in common with their Afghani counterpart and tend to be (strong emphasis on TEND) more symilar to south hymalayan "multipurpose" cultivars, that are easily adaptible to shifting climes during the season, compared to either full narrow or full wide leaflet cultivars.

Sativa broad leaf, I have grown a few but pushed aside for unwanted traits (i sitll grow them and smoke them, just dont give them relevance).
I havent had an instance where a broad leaf Sativa would keep me uplifted and energized... they tend to have that narcotic effect at the end making me yawn, get hungry and end up falling asleep...

For me Broadleaf equals to narcotic effect. Its not a bad thing until one is searching for the opposite effect of sleeping. There is also the case of skunks/afgans being narrow leaf in some cases and still making you fall asleep...

 

[BC LONE WOLF]

Ive been spending time with Native American communities, namely the Native American Church.

What I was told resonates with what you say - its always been here.
There was a well established trading network between N and S Americas, similar to the Silk Road, and sometimes was refered to as the Tobacco Road by some I talked with.
The Lakota (Natives of the Dakotas of USA) have an oral history going back 60,000 years. They speak of pan-global travel and trade going as far back as their origin stories. For them, cannabis was more akin to how the sub-Saharan Africans used cannabis - as a conduit to the after-life realm and so was usually used sparingly. If you've ever been on a high dose mushroom trip and then smoked cannabis a few hours into the peak, you may see why it wasnt used in every ceremony.
So, for sure there is a pre-Colonial history that is absent from any written accounts. I mean, being Scandinavian born in America, I was raised on stories of Erik the Red and his son Leif exploring USA 500yrs before Columbus bought a crudely drawn map from a Scandinavian and starting his conquest, but was always scolded by my teachers for reiterating things in class that werent in our textbooks. Just like how Austro-Asian cannabis is a thing (NLDA) and how there was extensive travel and trading from Australia, Asia, India, and Madagascar, which is why Zamal looks more like Indian and AUS genetics than Malawi or Mozambique.
Though, there sure was a fresh influx of genetics that came along with Euro-Asian's reintroduction to the Americas as we can see with Brazilian and Jamaican being so influenced by Indian and SW/WS African genetics

I praise the word reintroducing as it gives acknowlegdment of the vast world that was the Americas, with its own unique fauna and flora. Vastly adultered with anything and everything brought by the ships from Europe.

Of course as they where told to destroy and conquer, and wrote their selfproclaimed findings, they made sure to never write about what was actually found in the Americas.

My humble hypothesis;
Colonialism arrives with HEMP genetics to mass produce ropes and sails exclusively, only to find Native Americas habitants were already using a similiar plant with different "properties" aka psychedelic/psychoactive for shamanic/spiritual purposes, along with the other many native master plants like the many psychedelic cacti found in Mexico, Peru, Bolivia... Vines and plants like Yopo, Ayahusca.... the evidence in nature is overwhelming, I have no doubt the Americas ecosystem would've been able to create its own genotype coming from Asia pre colonial times.

I am also bias, I am Venezuelan/Canadian and I would never admit the European colonialism has done anything good for my peoples. Now that I know the faith of the Northern American brothers is the same as ours down South, I stand and defend our ancestry till today. Nothing good came out of 500 years of ecocide, geneocide and cultural cleansing.

Only in recent decades the Ruderalis genotype was "rediscovered" and it has very low THC its almost not psychoactive. Why cant there be a opposite genotype in the equatorial Americas? one that has high THC?

For me its sound more realistic a plant adapting over thoundsands of years of travel, rather than just 500. I doubt anything in Nature can change in only 500 years, from being non psychoactive to full on psychodelic. Trippy spiritual weed not narcoleptic.

 

[Thcvhunter]

European colonialism

Id guard against placing responsibility for all ills on Europeans.

1) The Natives played well with the Vikings and the Celts before them.
2) Europeans were the first peoples of the globe to lose their culture to industrial revolution. Thus, they are due sympathy - not villainy.
3) The Natives also owned slaves and were the last to give up their slaves, decades after the European colonies here gave up theirs.

Its never fair to bestow all of the human condition upon one specific peoples, as thats engaging in identity politics.

 

[BC LONE WOLF]

Id guard against placing responsibility for all ills on Europeans.

1) The Natives played well with the Vikings and the Celts before them.
2) Europeans were the first peoples of the globe to lose their culture to industrial revolution. Thus, they are due sympathy - not villainy.
3) The Natives also owned slaves and were the last to give up their slaves, decades after the European colonies here gave up theirs.

Its never fair to bestow all of the human condition upon one specific peoples, as thats engaging in identity politics.

You are right. Thats why I wanted to be public and say I was bias because I assumed a side instead of being neutral. Just talking politics, I left my tribal self loose and unchecked.

I can't undo the past, but I can change my way of perceiving the future and I did. I became aware that we are all the same in this vast universe, the constrict of nations, countries...? thats all nonsense, we are a mix of eveything around us and just like our beloved plants we thrive and look different on the outside based on our enviroment, but deep down inside we are all the same. We are all one.

 

[Eltitoguay]

Ive been spending time with Native American communities, namely the Native American Church.
What I was told resonates with what you say - its always been here.
There was a well established trading network between N and S Americas, similar to the Silk Road, and sometimes was refered to as the Tobacco Road by some I talked with.
The Lakota (Natives of the Dakotas of USA) have an oral history going back 60,000 years. They speak of pan-global travel and trade going as far back as their origin stories. For them, cannabis was more akin to how the sub-Saharan Africans used cannabis - as a conduit to the after-life realm and so was usually used sparingly. If you've ever been on a high dose mushroom trip and then smoked cannabis a few hours into the peak, you may see why it wasnt used in every ceremony.
So, for sure there is a pre-Colonial history that is absent from any written accounts. I mean, being Scandinavian born in America, I was raised on stories of Erik the Red and his son Leif exploring USA 500yrs before Columbus bought a crudely drawn map from a Scandinavian and starting his conquest, but was always scolded by my teachers for reiterating things in class that werent in our textbooks. Just like how Austro-Asian cannabis is a thing (NLDA) and how there was extensive travel and trading from Australia, Asia, India, and Madagascar, which is why Zamal looks more like Indian and AUS genetics than Malawi or Mozambique.
Though, there sure was a fresh influx of genetics that came along with Euro-Asian's reintroduction to the Americas as we can see with Brazilian and Jamaican being so influenced by Indian and SW/WS African genetics

Sorry, but the basis of your argument (in bold) is totally impossible : Without knowing anything about the Lakota, I think you have put maybe two extra zeros in your date: 60.000 years ago!!...: So those Lakota stories of "travel and contacts and pan-global trade" would talk about contacts with Neanderthals and Devisonians...(as chronological references, Homo Neanderthal became extinct in Spain between 24,000 and 40,000 years ago...; Homo Floresiensis became extinct in Indonesia between 50,000 and 40,000 years ago... )

As for Columbus and the Viking maps, clarify that Spanish fishermen traveled and fished on the coasts of Newfoundland since maybe 1375: remember that when the French navigator Jacques Cartier gave his name to Canada and claimed these new territories – Terra Nova – for The French Crown noted a surprising discovery (to him/them) in his letters: "(...)In those remote waters I found more than a tousand Basques fishing for cod(...)", and that and the natives of Newfoundland spoke a little Basque.
The existence of this very rich fishing ground, very important economically, was kept as a state secret by the Kingdom of Castile (probably, not even shared with the Crown of Aragon).

(I think that a lot of people, about Columbus and his trip to America, the "topical-popular-folkloric" version of the old movies is used in which Columbus has to prove to the scientific commission that the world was really a sphere.. The truth is that Columbus was scientifically out of date with respect to the Portuguese (in addition, the Portuguese saw and had the eastern route more assured) and Spanish geographers and navigators who examined his project: both groups rejected the project, pointing out Columbus's great error (which Columbus did not admit) in calculating such a small terrestrial diameter: his projected voyage from Iberia to the The Moluccan Islands were scientifically possible, but unfeasible with the technology of the moment... (if there was not enough land in between to make enough stopovers...; they estimated, correctly, at three times more the distance, if I think I remember well, than Columbus's calculations for his voyage...) Only the final personal decision of Queen Isabel I of Castile (her reasons are another story that should be told on another occasion, which the great Michael Ende would say) made his trip possible, by overcoming the first initial rejection of the official commission of geographers and navigators...
Remember that Columbus lived and died maintaining that he had arrived somewhere in the most eastern Asia, while his Spanish contemporaries were eager to discover a passage in those new lands towards another ocean that should bathe both the western coasts of those new lands and the eastern ones from Asia).

 

[Thcvhunter]

As for the 60,000 yrs, I take that with a grain of salt as well.
I interpret it as Seasons and not years, which is still longer than the Smithsonian grants their existence.

They did talk of circumnavigating the globe, though. I thought that was pretty cool, and lines up with what other indigenous tribes around the globe say.

The Vikings came to Newfoundland in 985. Its very well documented by the Scandinavians. At the time, Leif was circumnavigating the Greenland his father found in order to accurately map it. To this day, his map matches with satellite cartography of Greenland.
The Natives say they were visited by Celtic monks about a generation earlier than the Vikings. Both of whom the Natives got along with, but only the Vikings intermarried and made it as far west as California (Lake County has/had a Viking burial mound that the Pomo nation were protecting out of honor and brotherhood, as per the current Chief Geronimo aka Thomas, whom I served in ceremony).
I was told there are 3 European peoples who the Natives have always gotten along with. The Celts, Scandinavians, and Templars. Yeah, those Templars. The medicine man who introduced me to Chief Geronimo was the son of a Templar and gave me his father's ruby Templar ring after I spent weeks in his teepee with Peyote he had been fermenting for 3 years.

There's so many beautiful connections and interbeingness among humanity that the Smithsonian et al dont want us to know about.

 

[Normannen]

As for the 60,000 yrs, I take that with a grain of salt as well.
I interpret it as Seasons and not years, which is still longer than the Smithsonian grants their existence.

They did talk of circumnavigating the globe, though. I thought that was pretty cool, and lines up with what other indigenous tribes around the globe say.

The Vikings came to Newfoundland in 985. Its very well documented by the Scandinavians. At the time, Leif was circumnavigating the Greenland his father found in order to accurately map it. To this day, his map matches with satellite cartography of Greenland.
The Natives say they were visited by Celtic monks about a generation earlier than the Vikings. Both of whom the Natives got along with, but only the Vikings intermarried and made it as far west as California (Lake County has/had a Viking burial mound that the Pomo nation were protecting out of honor and brotherhood, as per the current Chief Geronimo aka Thomas, whom I served in ceremony).
I was told there are 3 European peoples who the Natives have always gotten along with. The Celts, Scandinavians, and Templars. Yeah, those Templars. The medicine man who introduced me to Chief Geronimo was the son of a Templar and gave me his father's ruby Templar ring after I spent weeks in his teepee with Peyote he had been fermenting for 3 years.

There's so many beautiful connections and interbeingness among humanity that the Smithsonian et al dont want us to know about.

celtic monks? you mean Christian missionaries that came out of Ireland? because monastic orders emerged during the feudal period, before the celts were closer to a federation of tribes with druids as spiritual guides for each community and each with their own druidic traditions...these people didn't need to cross the world, they were really happy where they were. Maybe celtic rovers, who were predating the vikings are more likely to have made contact with them. If we're talking Christians they musta come through the Viking routes (in a similar fashion to Iceland).

 

[Eltitoguay]

As for the 60,000 yrs, I take that with a grain of salt as well.
I interpret it as Seasons and not years, which is still longer than the Smithsonian grants their existence.

They did talk of circumnavigating the globe, though. I thought that was pretty cool, and lines up with what other indigenous tribes around the globe say.

The Vikings came to Newfoundland in 985. Its very well documented by the Scandinavians. At the time, Leif was circumnavigating the Greenland his father found in order to accurately map it. To this day, his map matches with satellite cartography of Greenland.
The Natives say they were visited by Celtic monks about a generation earlier than the Vikings. Both of whom the Natives got along with, but only the Vikings intermarried and made it as far west as California (Lake County has/had a Viking burial mound that the Pomo nation were protecting out of honor and brotherhood, as per the current Chief Geronimo aka Thomas, whom I served in ceremony).
I was told there are 3 European peoples who the Natives have always gotten along with. The Celts, Scandinavians, and Templars. Yeah, those Templars. The medicine man who introduced me to Chief Geronimo was the son of a Templar and gave me his father's ruby Templar ring after I spent weeks in his teepee with Peyote he had been fermenting for 3 years.

There's so many beautiful connections and interbeingness among humanity that the Smithsonian et al dont want us to know about.

Ah, then I must publicly apologize to all the participants in the thread for my previous message: you had not mentioned that you had a source of information like that enormously generous and david native "medicine man" who descends directly from the Templars... So Not only is it probable that those Lakota stories from 60,000 years ago (almost coincide with the "mitochondrial Eve" Homo Sapiens L-3, right?), but surely if the "medicine man" descendant of the Templars manages to delve deeper into the introspection of the collective part of his consciousness, adds another "0", and tells us about the travels, trade, uses and customs of Homo Erectus...

I regret that my historiographic sources are not up to par with from the rest of this thread and this discussion; And in order not to lead you into serious historical errors due to the inconsistent nature of my sources, it is best that I abandon this historical discussion.

 

[Abdthi1966]

So how far back do I have to go before this goes off Lambsbread? Also is there a consensus for where to locate something similar, or heavily related?

 

[Wwbsox]

So how far back do I have to go before this goes off Lambsbread? Also is there a consensus for where to locate something similar, or heavily related?

This particular discussion started as “the origins of cannabis in Jamaica,” which was relevant, but yes, did get off track and became a disagreement that IMHO was not as relevant to Jamaican Lambs Bread.

As far as finding something “similar, or heavily related”… do you mean in conversation? Or seeds/growing JLB?

Peace

 

[Abdthi1966]

This particular discussion started as “the origins of cannabis in Jamaica,” which was relevant, but yes, did get off track and became a disagreement that IMHO was not as relevant to Jamaican Lambs Bread.

As far as finding something “similar, or heavily related”… do you mean in conversation? Or seeds/growing JLB?

Peace

I was curious about JBL seeds, though I am aware that it’s a disputed name, at least in the way that it’s used. I figured someone might have asked previously but then saw how it devolved towards the ends and figured I would ask. Thanks for the response and clarification about the thread.

 

[Wwbsox]

I was curious about JBL seeds, though I am aware that it’s a disputed name, at least in the way that it’s used. I figured someone might have asked previously but then saw how it devolved towards the ends and figured I would ask. Thanks for the response and clarification about the thread.

For seeds use Atao Genetics. Contact @Roms here on ICMag. He won’t sell them but can include them for free with purchase of his other strains. See post #1704.

If you plan on growing them though, I would recommend reading the entire thread. Lots of good information. I just started mine and I am going through the entire thread again.

 

[Abdthi1966]

For seeds use Atao Genetics. Contact @Roms here on ICMag. He won’t sell them but can include them for free with purchase of his other strains. See post #1704.

Right on thanks, mate.

 

[Marcus67]

This is Jamaican 1989 grown on a terrace in Madrid in 1992 from my uncle aka Rene's Collie (as he has selected each year for best effect). These are photos of physical photos so excuse the quality