Haskel pneumatic refrigerant pumps
- Thread starter Gray Wolf
- Start date
Dave at Haskel
Active member
Wow! I stepped away for a day and the thread went crazy! I'm glad people are reading this.
I'll make a few comments to some of the new postings.
First, there is a vented separation between the gas section and the air drive of the Haskel pumps (both EXT420 and 59025), so it is not possible for oil or other contamination in the drive air to get into the gas section.
Regarding the efficiency of the air driven pumps, compressed air is not a very efficient energy source, however as Gray Wolf pointed out, it does have many benefits. Generally, when I run the numbers, I come out with a 1:3 efficiency when comparing air drive to electric motors. That is, if an application will require a 7-1/2 HP compressor, if it can be done with a motor driven pump, the motor on the pump would need to be about 2-1/2 HP.
As I previously mentioned, the Haskel Engineering Dept is working on developing an electrically driven pump, but it is still in development. I'll keep you advised as much as I can.
I think that covers most of what I read, I'll review the postings again and comment if I missed something.
Dave
I'll make a few comments to some of the new postings.
First, there is a vented separation between the gas section and the air drive of the Haskel pumps (both EXT420 and 59025), so it is not possible for oil or other contamination in the drive air to get into the gas section.
Regarding the efficiency of the air driven pumps, compressed air is not a very efficient energy source, however as Gray Wolf pointed out, it does have many benefits. Generally, when I run the numbers, I come out with a 1:3 efficiency when comparing air drive to electric motors. That is, if an application will require a 7-1/2 HP compressor, if it can be done with a motor driven pump, the motor on the pump would need to be about 2-1/2 HP.
As I previously mentioned, the Haskel Engineering Dept is working on developing an electrically driven pump, but it is still in development. I'll keep you advised as much as I can.
I think that covers most of what I read, I'll review the postings again and comment if I missed something.
Dave
architect - I'm just sayin that if you run four appions you need about 60 amps, 15 amp per pump. If running dual 5hp compressors with pressure switches on 60 amps single phase is do able with a pneumatic pumps where's the problem?
No one ran Haskels bc they didn't have three phase, now it's been proven to be possible with out, so why would one not upgrade? If your talking about the cost of power per pound of recovery I am hopeful to give data on that soon, still modifying the haskel.....
No one ran Haskels bc they didn't have three phase, now it's been proven to be possible with out, so why would one not upgrade? If your talking about the cost of power per pound of recovery I am hopeful to give data on that soon, still modifying the haskel.....
Haskel fills niches with pneumatic technology that are less effectively filled with electric drive technology, and it has certainly come to the rescue of the commercial processor brother and sisters, with a reliable explosion proof pump that fire marshals can embrace, albeit not custom perfect for our application.
Having saved our bacon at a time of critical need, they are committed enough to have their engineers scheming on how to build a pump that is custom perfect for our application and which will be more suitable for smaller operations.
Others are scrambling to fill that market window as well, so I predict Christmas is just around the corner.
A good point that Haskel's core skill set ostensibly lies with pneumatics, but they are a large enough company to acquire the skill sets, or contract to those whose core purpose includes those skill sets.
Their motivation for doing so, is ostensibly business, but given the political climate, I'm pleased we have their attention and willingness to work with us.
Thanks again Dave for participating in this forum and supplying answers!
Thank ya'll for keeping it professional, so we can keep brothers like Dave on our side!
First off let me say that I love pneumatic pumps and feel like they have provided some great options. One thing I have not seen mentioned is the cost of maintenance not only on the pump but on the compressor. This can get very costly. At my last job we ran two Ingersoll Rand compressors and multiple pneumatic pumps(Hydraulics International, Maximator). The costs of quarterly maintenance plus repairs on the compressors and pump rebuilds was significant. I am very happy that Haskel is looking into electric options as well. Thanks Haskel!
It's the cost of doing business.
To fully service our 15hp atlas copco w/ refrigerated air dryer was about $750......$550 of that filters ect. This has now become another cost of operating but nothing compared to losing a day of production bc an Appion tr21 goes down.
The maintenence on the haskel can be done in house and should be part of any regular maintanence in a production facility
To fully service our 15hp atlas copco w/ refrigerated air dryer was about $750......$550 of that filters ect. This has now become another cost of operating but nothing compared to losing a day of production bc an Appion tr21 goes down.
The maintenence on the haskel can be done in house and should be part of any regular maintanence in a production facility
You are comparing compressor maintenance to the appion/tr21 breaking. Wait till you see the price tag/down time of a broken compressor. Our Ingersoll rand parts were a bit more and when you multiply that by 4 for quarterly service and do that with two compressors it gets expensive. We did pump rebuilds in-house however a hydraulics international rebuild could cost $800 depending on what needs to be replaced. That was just seals assuming pistons and barrels were fine. My point was lots of costs are involved. I think pneumatic is the best thing available currently but would embrace an electric pump. I personally try to keep my equipment that needs maintenance to a minimum.
I'm comparing down time cost due to the use of an unreliable pump to regular maintenence costs of pneumatic systems.
Everything needs maintenence, even these hypothetical reliable electric pumps.
If we lose a pump we lose production. If our machines aren't running we are losing money and market share. Screw compressors are extremely reliable with proper maintenance.
Good point that total maintenance is the issue.
I only installed a couple 200 hp Ingersol Rands and switched to Quincy for better reliability, but both were relatively low maintenance. I kept developing heat exchanger leaks on the Ingersols, and as I was using their cooling water for process heat, it was s deal breaker.
Not having pistons and barrels, there is not as much to maintain.
Drunkengrower
Member
Can someone explain in laymans terms how these pneumatic pumps work? How do you set one up? Where inline does the compressor go? How big of a compressor is needed? Anyone have recovery rate estimates? How are they compared to a Appion or cm-ep pump? I want to buy a haskel I think but need more info
Drunkengrower
Member
The machine that's being used is a 1000g terpp that takes around 10-12 lbs of r-600 to fill
Dave at Haskel
Active member
Hi, Drunkengrower, I'm the Haskel guy. The Haskel pumps use compressed air as a power source, the pumps don't require any electricity. The compressed air pushes a large piston, which is connected to a smaller piston, which compresses the R600. The compressed air can be from any type of compressor that creates compressed air (piston or screw type). For maximum speed of the Haskel pump (about 60 cycles per minute), the pump needs between 25 and 30 CFM of compressed air at about 100 psi. If you give it less air, the pump will still cycle, it will just cycle a little slower.
Their are four connections on the EXT420:
1) Gas (R600) in - connect the source of the R600 here
2) Gas (R660) out - connect the tank you are pumping into here
3) Drive air - connect the source of compressed air here
4) Vent Line - connect the vent line to a pipe/tube taking any internally leaked gas to a safe external location
Regarding flow rates, I'd like to defer that to people already using the pumps (I don't have any direct experience). I have been told that they are pumping enough R600 for a 1 pound batch in about 12 - 15 minutes.
Let me know if you have anymore questions.
Dave
Drunkengrower
Member
Thank you Dave! That's what I was looking for. Where can I order a ext420 pump from?
Drunkengrower
Member
Can anyone recommend a good compressor to use? I'm in the private sector so would probably only use a couple times per year. Thx
waywardwolf
Member
If your working in the private sector, you may find that the required air compressor is a bit spendy. I see folks using twin screw Chicago Pneumatic & Quincy with refrigerated dryer though. There is a third that escapes me @ the moment.
Personally I would go to a reputable dealer. Tell them my requirements & budget. Ask them to get me into something dependable.
Dave at Haskel
Active member
You can get one from a Haskel distributor. They are listed on the Haskel webpage (haskel.com). Where are you located?
Dave
Dave at Haskel
Active member
I tend to avoid making recommendations for compressors (not my expertise), but I have talked to one person that is having good success with one he purchased at Home Depot. Since your usage is so slow, as long as you can get a compressor that will produce flow around 25 CFM at 90 - 100 psi, you should be fine.
Dave
