Jiu Jitsu Playa
Member
If organics were better.... No one in sports would use steroids... Its science. Juice it up
G
Guest
Sorry fisher15, i missed the point.
The yield i get really depends on the genes. Some plants just arent big and heavy. Plus, factors other than nutrients come into play in regaurds to yeild. We've had extreme drought for the past 2 years and that has severely limited yield.
I grow 40 plants per season and i push them to average 6oz's per plant. Some plants produce a pound, some 5 ozs. I know for a fact that if i dont fertilize properly, i wont get it.
I don't know of any plant that a grower shouldnt get at least 5 ozs per plant if there dirt's good and good sun. Most pot grows fast if provided what it needs. The only time i get less than that is when i choose to plant in a spot that gets only 2-3 hrs of direct sun, and then sometimes it will be less or if its taken early.
The primary reason i use MG is that they dont sell any kind of fast acting organic ferts here anywhere. Ive looked. Ive considered ordering soil syryp but that shipping cost.
The yield i get really depends on the genes. Some plants just arent big and heavy. Plus, factors other than nutrients come into play in regaurds to yeild. We've had extreme drought for the past 2 years and that has severely limited yield.
I grow 40 plants per season and i push them to average 6oz's per plant. Some plants produce a pound, some 5 ozs. I know for a fact that if i dont fertilize properly, i wont get it.
I don't know of any plant that a grower shouldnt get at least 5 ozs per plant if there dirt's good and good sun. Most pot grows fast if provided what it needs. The only time i get less than that is when i choose to plant in a spot that gets only 2-3 hrs of direct sun, and then sometimes it will be less or if its taken early.
The primary reason i use MG is that they dont sell any kind of fast acting organic ferts here anywhere. Ive looked. Ive considered ordering soil syryp but that shipping cost.
G
Guest
From Wikipedia on Organic Fertilizers (in regards to original topic and not what works better for a guerrilla grower)
Advantages
Although the density of nutrients in organic material is comparatively modest, they have many advantages. The majority of nitrogen supplying organic fertilizers contain insoluble nitrogen and act as a slow-release fertilizer.
According to a 32-year Swedish study into crop yields comparing organic and synthetic fertilization, yield increased in all treatments (organic and synthetic) in concordance with the overall trend of the Swedish agriculture, but the increase was highest in the organic treatments (65 % in the biodynamic in comparison with 50 % in the conventional)[2]
Additionally, data analysis for soil physical properties, soil chemistry and soil biology collected after 19, 28 and 32 years of soil data showed that nearly all chemical (pH, P, K, Mg, C and N) and biological parameters (respiration, DHA, urease, earthworms) assessed were improved by organic fertilization whereas no such improvements were observed following the application of mineral fertilizer.
A University of North Carolina study found that potential mineralizable nitrogen (PMN) in the soil was 182–285% higher in organic mulched systems, than in the synthetics control.[3]
Modern organic agriculture admits the truth of Liebig's theory of plant macronutrients, but stress that there are serious limitations to the current methods of implementing it via chemical fertilization[citation needed].
They re-emphasize the role of humus and other organic components of soil, which are believed to play several important roles:
* Mobilizing existing soil nutrients, so that good growth is achieved with lower nutrient densities while wasting less
* Releasing nutrients at a slower, more consistent rate, helping to avoid a boom-and-bust pattern
* Helping to retain soil moisture, reducing the stress due to temporary moisture stress
* Improving the soil structure
* Helping to prevent topsoil erosion (responsible for desertfication and the Dust bowl
Organic fertilizers also have the advantage of avoiding certain problems associated with the regular heavy use of artificial fertilizers:
* The necessity of reapplying artificial fertilizers regularly (and perhaps in increasing quantities) to maintain fertility
* Extensive runoff of soluble nitrogen and phosphorus, leading to eutrophication of bodies of water (which causes fish kills[4])
* Costs are lower for if fertilizer is locally available[citation needed]
[edit] Disadvantages
Organic fertilizers can have disadvantages:
* As a dilute source of nutrients when compared to inorganic fertilizers, transporting large amount of fertilizer will incur higher costs. Especially with slurry and manure [5]
* The composition of organic fertilizers tends to be more complex and variable than a standardized inorganic product.
* Improperly-processed organic fertilizers may contain pathogens from plant or animal matter that are harmful to humans or plants. However, proper composting should remove them.[6]
Advantages
Although the density of nutrients in organic material is comparatively modest, they have many advantages. The majority of nitrogen supplying organic fertilizers contain insoluble nitrogen and act as a slow-release fertilizer.
According to a 32-year Swedish study into crop yields comparing organic and synthetic fertilization, yield increased in all treatments (organic and synthetic) in concordance with the overall trend of the Swedish agriculture, but the increase was highest in the organic treatments (65 % in the biodynamic in comparison with 50 % in the conventional)[2]
Additionally, data analysis for soil physical properties, soil chemistry and soil biology collected after 19, 28 and 32 years of soil data showed that nearly all chemical (pH, P, K, Mg, C and N) and biological parameters (respiration, DHA, urease, earthworms) assessed were improved by organic fertilization whereas no such improvements were observed following the application of mineral fertilizer.
A University of North Carolina study found that potential mineralizable nitrogen (PMN) in the soil was 182–285% higher in organic mulched systems, than in the synthetics control.[3]
Modern organic agriculture admits the truth of Liebig's theory of plant macronutrients, but stress that there are serious limitations to the current methods of implementing it via chemical fertilization[citation needed].
They re-emphasize the role of humus and other organic components of soil, which are believed to play several important roles:
* Mobilizing existing soil nutrients, so that good growth is achieved with lower nutrient densities while wasting less
* Releasing nutrients at a slower, more consistent rate, helping to avoid a boom-and-bust pattern
* Helping to retain soil moisture, reducing the stress due to temporary moisture stress
* Improving the soil structure
* Helping to prevent topsoil erosion (responsible for desertfication and the Dust bowl
Organic fertilizers also have the advantage of avoiding certain problems associated with the regular heavy use of artificial fertilizers:
* The necessity of reapplying artificial fertilizers regularly (and perhaps in increasing quantities) to maintain fertility
* Extensive runoff of soluble nitrogen and phosphorus, leading to eutrophication of bodies of water (which causes fish kills[4])
* Costs are lower for if fertilizer is locally available[citation needed]
[edit] Disadvantages
Organic fertilizers can have disadvantages:
* As a dilute source of nutrients when compared to inorganic fertilizers, transporting large amount of fertilizer will incur higher costs. Especially with slurry and manure [5]
* The composition of organic fertilizers tends to be more complex and variable than a standardized inorganic product.
* Improperly-processed organic fertilizers may contain pathogens from plant or animal matter that are harmful to humans or plants. However, proper composting should remove them.[6]
Organics vs Inorganic
Central to the science of agronomy is the topic of increasing crop yields and growing healthy plants that provide high nutritional value. While the debate will continue between organic and inorganic fertilizers one fact is clear. When it comes to feeding a hungry world inorganic fertilizers are unsurpassed in their ability to provide high levels of nutrients to plants in an efficient and economical manner. Understanding their differences helps us all to understand their appropriate uses.
Plants fed a strict diet of organic fertilizers are not necessarily healthier to eat than plants fed conventional or manufactured fertilizers. The nutritional quality of food is controlled by the amount and proportional balance of the nutrients fed to the plant, not by the source of the nutrient.
Fertilizers are made of organic or inorganic materials produced from natural or synthetic origins that are added to plant systems in order to supply one or more nutrients required for the plants healthy growth.
Fertilizers produced from organic materials contain carbon and either one or more of the essential plant nutrients nitrogen, phosphorus and potassium.
Animal manures, composts, sewage sludge and by-products from processed animal and vegetable materials are the most common organic fertilizers.
On the other hand carbon is not normally a component in the basic chemical structure of inorganic fertilizers. Usually referred to as manufactured, commercial, synthetic or mineral, inorganic fertilizers are produced from the naturally occurring substances of nitrogen, phosphorus and potassium.
Nitrogen (N), the most used nutrient in plants, comprises about 78% of the atmosphere. To produce nitrogen for fertilizers air is combined with methane from natural gas, and, under pressure and temperature, is converted to anhydrous ammonia which is the basis for most nitrogen fertilizers.
The fossilized remains of marine life deposited in the earth is the primary source of phosphorus (P), the second most used of the primary plant macro-nutrients, N P and K. Its conversion to usable form by the plant mimics natural processes occurring in the soil.
Evaporated oceans are the primary source of the salts from which potassium (K) is produced.
The primary difference between organic and inorganic fertilizers is the nutrient content. Organic fertilizers contain small concentrations of plant nutrients which means they must be applied at high rates in order to provide the nutrient needs of plants.
While it does contain nutrients, manures nutrient levels vary greatly from load to load. Nutrients in manure usually are not readily usable to the plants and are not properly balanced to provide all the nutrient needs the plant requires. Inorganic fertilizers on the other hand can be applied to the exact
levels or nutrients required by the plants.
Transportation costs for manure are relatively high because its nutrient content is relatively low so it is not economical for farm producers to move manure more than a few mile from the feedlot. Large amounts of organic fertilizers must be applied in order to meet the needs of the growing plants. A 50
pound bag of inorganic fertilizer is roughly equivalent to one ton of feedlot manure. In addition, applying excessive manure can create an environmental liability rather than a nutrient source.
Without the use of inorganic fertilizers farmers could not produce enough food to feed the world. The use of fertilizers accounts for an estimated 30-50% of crop yields in the U.S. Higher yields are common in developing areas of the world through the use of inorganic fertilizers. Still, crops use and remove
more nutrients from the soil than we return with fertilizers. It is a necessity to utilize inorganic fertilizers to replace the nutrients taken from the soil during crop growth. The use of inorganic fertilizers produces higher crop yields and higher yields mean more feed available for a hungry world.
Central to the science of agronomy is the topic of increasing crop yields and growing healthy plants that provide high nutritional value. While the debate will continue between organic and inorganic fertilizers one fact is clear. When it comes to feeding a hungry world inorganic fertilizers are unsurpassed in their ability to provide high levels of nutrients to plants in an efficient and economical manner. Understanding their differences helps us all to understand their appropriate uses.
Plants fed a strict diet of organic fertilizers are not necessarily healthier to eat than plants fed conventional or manufactured fertilizers. The nutritional quality of food is controlled by the amount and proportional balance of the nutrients fed to the plant, not by the source of the nutrient.
Fertilizers are made of organic or inorganic materials produced from natural or synthetic origins that are added to plant systems in order to supply one or more nutrients required for the plants healthy growth.
Fertilizers produced from organic materials contain carbon and either one or more of the essential plant nutrients nitrogen, phosphorus and potassium.
Animal manures, composts, sewage sludge and by-products from processed animal and vegetable materials are the most common organic fertilizers.
On the other hand carbon is not normally a component in the basic chemical structure of inorganic fertilizers. Usually referred to as manufactured, commercial, synthetic or mineral, inorganic fertilizers are produced from the naturally occurring substances of nitrogen, phosphorus and potassium.
Nitrogen (N), the most used nutrient in plants, comprises about 78% of the atmosphere. To produce nitrogen for fertilizers air is combined with methane from natural gas, and, under pressure and temperature, is converted to anhydrous ammonia which is the basis for most nitrogen fertilizers.
The fossilized remains of marine life deposited in the earth is the primary source of phosphorus (P), the second most used of the primary plant macro-nutrients, N P and K. Its conversion to usable form by the plant mimics natural processes occurring in the soil.
Evaporated oceans are the primary source of the salts from which potassium (K) is produced.
The primary difference between organic and inorganic fertilizers is the nutrient content. Organic fertilizers contain small concentrations of plant nutrients which means they must be applied at high rates in order to provide the nutrient needs of plants.
While it does contain nutrients, manures nutrient levels vary greatly from load to load. Nutrients in manure usually are not readily usable to the plants and are not properly balanced to provide all the nutrient needs the plant requires. Inorganic fertilizers on the other hand can be applied to the exact
levels or nutrients required by the plants.
Transportation costs for manure are relatively high because its nutrient content is relatively low so it is not economical for farm producers to move manure more than a few mile from the feedlot. Large amounts of organic fertilizers must be applied in order to meet the needs of the growing plants. A 50
pound bag of inorganic fertilizer is roughly equivalent to one ton of feedlot manure. In addition, applying excessive manure can create an environmental liability rather than a nutrient source.
Without the use of inorganic fertilizers farmers could not produce enough food to feed the world. The use of fertilizers accounts for an estimated 30-50% of crop yields in the U.S. Higher yields are common in developing areas of the world through the use of inorganic fertilizers. Still, crops use and remove
more nutrients from the soil than we return with fertilizers. It is a necessity to utilize inorganic fertilizers to replace the nutrients taken from the soil during crop growth. The use of inorganic fertilizers produces higher crop yields and higher yields mean more feed available for a hungry world.
Experiment to see which fertilizer produces more yield in a bean plant, but there only using horse manure for organics portion so I don't think that is an accurate representation of what organics can really do.
http://jrscience.wcp.muohio.edu/nsfall01/FinalArticles/Final3Organicvs.ChemicalF.html
http://jrscience.wcp.muohio.edu/nsfall01/FinalArticles/Final3Organicvs.ChemicalF.html
I use organics especially for the ease , i don't have to worry bout measuring , just make sure everything is in balance and the rain does the rest.
Everything on auto pilot.
My plants on guerillia are in a mix with 1/2 vegging mix and 1/2 flowering mix and every month i give them a little hand of npk pellets , 2 weeks before flowering begins i give them a mix of organic solids
At home i add bloom stim if i am using soil for the first time. When using soil for the second year , liquids will easily burn them so i stick with solids.
The only chem thing which really makes a difference is pk13/14 but it fucks up the taste of the weed so i prefer a bit less but tastier , i also tried other chems 4 years ago and they where ok , jus tthat pk13/14 thing should be avoided(imo)
But lol silverback sorry that we have strayed away from the essence of the topic , it wasn't organics vs chem , but the point being give them extra nutes during this period.
which is a truth like a cow(local expression badly translated)
Everything on auto pilot.
My plants on guerillia are in a mix with 1/2 vegging mix and 1/2 flowering mix and every month i give them a little hand of npk pellets , 2 weeks before flowering begins i give them a mix of organic solids
At home i add bloom stim if i am using soil for the first time. When using soil for the second year , liquids will easily burn them so i stick with solids.
The only chem thing which really makes a difference is pk13/14 but it fucks up the taste of the weed so i prefer a bit less but tastier , i also tried other chems 4 years ago and they where ok , jus tthat pk13/14 thing should be avoided(imo)
But lol silverback sorry that we have strayed away from the essence of the topic , it wasn't organics vs chem , but the point being give them extra nutes during this period.
which is a truth like a cow(local expression badly translated)PrinceOfPersia
Active member
The poor peasents "which is 99.9%" of north korea who were "scraping" up every fert pellet, didnt do it because they thought "wow lets increase our yields" .. They have no other choise when they only own a couple of cows chickens and pigs, and still want to cultivate larger fields... They are simply forced. A chicken a cow and a 13 year old donkey wont get you much fertilizer organic or nonorganic for that matter, nevertheless speaking about cultivating whole fields.. You know they suffer from hunger over there, dont you?
Peace
Pop-
I believe we have learned time and time again that utilizing and harnessing the natural rythyms of earth's nutrient's far outweigh the temporary and short lived gains that laboratory chemicals may provide. It is a very dangerous thing to prolificate the theory that chemicals are the answer.
I know you (silverback) didn't mean to start a chem vs. organic thread and I whole heartedly believe in the nutrient scheduling you were bringing awareness to in regards to the timing of cannabis pre-flower, but please be careful. We don't need to prolong the idea that chem is the answer......it is not. I have seen the exact opposite in my 20 years of experimentation.
Feed your plants and feed them now outdoor enthusiasts, I hope the "organic" choice prevails, do not get caught up in the trickery of chemical dependance....
Everything you need is around you in a natural and earth born form....
MOST importantly, don't believe everything you think.
I know you (silverback) didn't mean to start a chem vs. organic thread and I whole heartedly believe in the nutrient scheduling you were bringing awareness to in regards to the timing of cannabis pre-flower, but please be careful. We don't need to prolong the idea that chem is the answer......it is not. I have seen the exact opposite in my 20 years of experimentation.
Feed your plants and feed them now outdoor enthusiasts, I hope the "organic" choice prevails, do not get caught up in the trickery of chemical dependance....
Everything you need is around you in a natural and earth born form....
MOST importantly, don't believe everything you think.
G
Guest
thats all right RW, i enjoy the discussion. I love the grow threadss but sometimes its like watchin paint dry. I like a little conversation....but doesnt all organic ferts lag a week or so behind their application? How do you deal with that and keep a bunch of nitro out of mid flower and doesnt rainfall impact the release of the nutes? I dont know much about it and just askin.
I dont think anyone can deny that organic is tastier, especially with sweet strains.
i appreciate the input antimatter. Is that a reliable source?
I dont think anyone can deny that organic is tastier, especially with sweet strains.
i appreciate the input antimatter. Is that a reliable source?
lol.. ya chemicals are bad for the environment but so are those fossil fuels you burn in your big ass truck to drive in all your bat guano and manure and all the carbon dioxide you produce hauling it in..
what about all the animals that were slaughtered to get your bone and blood and all that mining done to get your precious minerals, and the poor stolen bat guano shitt man you guys and your organics are really messing up the ecosystems. Im thinking that organic farming will probably be the reason that a zombie virus ever gets spread sorry folks but its gonna happen. Lets not forget how bad of a greenhouse gas Methane is and how much the cattle are contributing to global warming.
This thread is great moarrrrrrr!!! (not trying to start anything just saying)
(Edit I was just googling silverback, but it all looks pretty accurate to me)
what about all the animals that were slaughtered to get your bone and blood and all that mining done to get your precious minerals, and the poor stolen bat guano shitt man you guys and your organics are really messing up the ecosystems. Im thinking that organic farming will probably be the reason that a zombie virus ever gets spread sorry folks but its gonna happen. Lets not forget how bad of a greenhouse gas Methane is and how much the cattle are contributing to global warming.This thread is great moarrrrrrr!!! (not trying to start anything just saying)
(Edit I was just googling silverback, but it all looks pretty accurate to me)
High-ya SB, I want you to check outta youtube video ( I don't know how to link it here, sorry ) the name is "2008 medical marijuana grow-remix" ( it'd be nice if someone could link it for us ). This guy uses Age Old Organics on his plants. I've used it many times myself with same results. Age Old is taken up directly by the plant and is very fast acting. Not all organics nutes have to be broken down by micros.
Organics doesn't have to be slow anyway. If you have a -highly- active soil full of micro critters and feed them an amendment that is small in particle size, it's food for the plant in no time..... Lots of compost or worm casting in yer hole will provide the micros, along with what's there naturally. Then amending yer holes with somethin like Plant-Tone early in the spring or even the fall before will feed those lil guys and insure there's tons of micro critters when you plant. The more micro's the quicker the amendments get broke down.
I'm tellin ya SB checkout that Plant-Tone, it's easy to find at Lowes or Home Depot, and it only costs 8-9 buck for 10 pound. That's cheaper than MG my friend. It's full of -many- different amendments. I gaurantee you yer plants will be bigger than normal by the end of veg, and yer soil will be hoppin with micro critters by then too. So from then on, anything organic that gets put in there breaks down very fast!..... You owe it to yerself to try the Age Old grow and bloom as well. It's too late for the Plant-Tone this year, but you could try some of the Age Old Bloom on a few plants and compare it the chem fed plants. I think yul see that organics can very easily keep up with chems in the yeild department. If you have any doubts, watch the video again!
Gotta run, take care... BC
Organics doesn't have to be slow anyway. If you have a -highly- active soil full of micro critters and feed them an amendment that is small in particle size, it's food for the plant in no time..... Lots of compost or worm casting in yer hole will provide the micros, along with what's there naturally. Then amending yer holes with somethin like Plant-Tone early in the spring or even the fall before will feed those lil guys and insure there's tons of micro critters when you plant. The more micro's the quicker the amendments get broke down.
I'm tellin ya SB checkout that Plant-Tone, it's easy to find at Lowes or Home Depot, and it only costs 8-9 buck for 10 pound. That's cheaper than MG my friend. It's full of -many- different amendments. I gaurantee you yer plants will be bigger than normal by the end of veg, and yer soil will be hoppin with micro critters by then too. So from then on, anything organic that gets put in there breaks down very fast!..... You owe it to yerself to try the Age Old grow and bloom as well. It's too late for the Plant-Tone this year, but you could try some of the Age Old Bloom on a few plants and compare it the chem fed plants. I think yul see that organics can very easily keep up with chems in the yeild department. If you have any doubts, watch the video again!
Gotta run, take care... BC
Right on BC, I'm a fan of Age Old and have seen great results in under 24 hours after a soil soak at reccomended rates. Even faster when used as a foilar feed. It's great stuff for sure.
But I'm starting to think there may be other, more important things to consider when growing to maximize yield. Things like:
-amount of direct sun hitting the garden (hours)
-intensity of sun
-root space given
-genetics
It is 106 degrees right now here in northern cali, with the 10 day not looking much cooler. It will be like this through August. My garden gets 9-13 hours of direct sun and all the water it needs (from my well, it won't rain untill fall) so these conditions are prime to grow giant plants. I agree though, that deficient plants won't yield properly, even if these other variables are covered.
Just some food for thought...great discussion
But I'm starting to think there may be other, more important things to consider when growing to maximize yield. Things like:
-amount of direct sun hitting the garden (hours)
-intensity of sun
-root space given
-genetics
It is 106 degrees right now here in northern cali, with the 10 day not looking much cooler. It will be like this through August. My garden gets 9-13 hours of direct sun and all the water it needs (from my well, it won't rain untill fall) so these conditions are prime to grow giant plants. I agree though, that deficient plants won't yield properly, even if these other variables are covered.
Just some food for thought...great discussion
Great thread SB
I agree with BC and I think magiccannabus made some great points too.
I think it all depends on what you are trying to do, but if you want to go with nature instead of fighting it, organic is the way to go, although preparation is the key from what I've learned.
I'm sure that organic can easily out yield chemicals under the right circumstances (anyone here recall reading of old latrines producing monsters?), and slowly, the scientists are starting to figure out why and how to optimize it all!
I'm not sure that organics/gorilla growing go together as well as having a fixed plot close to home though, although if you plan longterm, I don't see why not. Build compost heaps at your locations a year or two in advance. Use whatever is available. Once it's broken down enough, dig it in the soil, and leave for a bit longer till the micro herd has kicked in.
Getting regular aerated teas to them could be a problem I guess, but I'm sure a way could be found.
It would still be allot easier to use nutrients out of a bottle, so I wouldn't blame you for going that route, but it's the cannabis equivalent of "slash and burn", where you get a quick return at a cost to the land.
I don't see any problem with this on a small scale since the soil recovers quickly if left alone for a bit, but on a large scale it's unsustainable IMHO.
I agree with BC and I think magiccannabus made some great points too.
I think it all depends on what you are trying to do, but if you want to go with nature instead of fighting it, organic is the way to go, although preparation is the key from what I've learned.
I'm sure that organic can easily out yield chemicals under the right circumstances (anyone here recall reading of old latrines producing monsters?), and slowly, the scientists are starting to figure out why and how to optimize it all!
I'm not sure that organics/gorilla growing go together as well as having a fixed plot close to home though, although if you plan longterm, I don't see why not. Build compost heaps at your locations a year or two in advance. Use whatever is available. Once it's broken down enough, dig it in the soil, and leave for a bit longer till the micro herd has kicked in.
Getting regular aerated teas to them could be a problem I guess, but I'm sure a way could be found.
It would still be allot easier to use nutrients out of a bottle, so I wouldn't blame you for going that route, but it's the cannabis equivalent of "slash and burn", where you get a quick return at a cost to the land.
I don't see any problem with this on a small scale since the soil recovers quickly if left alone for a bit, but on a large scale it's unsustainable IMHO.
I use Espoma's "Flower-Tone", and have used many of their products over the years. I have yet to have any quality issues with them. In fact, the results have seemed quite good. It really is just as cheap as Miracle Grow, and it doesn't take much more per application either. While manures and other things get flack for being bulky, once you've established an organic soil base, the soil stays rich better over a long term, meaning that even farmers growing food crops could benefit from putting down the heavy fertilizers, because it will need to be done far less often. Not just that, but all the sequestered fertilizer sources even down below the roots will be fed upon by beneficial fungi, which will then expel wastes that are even more soluble for the plants and other beneficials. Fungus helps you especially where you have rock and rotting plant matter in the soil. It fights erosion too. Thanks to the fungi eating at the rocks, plants are provided with minerals they need and could not otherwise break down. With a chemical field, these minerals have to be provided.
I really believe chemical fertilizers are terrible on many levels, but they do work. Obviously they work. It was our lack of understanding how to tweak the organics that stopped it from being so effective in the past. As a poster above mentioned, organic and chemical fields in one country both improved on a similar curve. Both benefit from modern science. It's just that now we're becoming aware of how incredible soil biology really is, and how powerful it can be if tuned properly.
Aside from corn I will also mention one other environment where chemicals actually do positive things. That would be hot, dry regions. The heat makes the soil biology poor, as does the lack of water, and the lack of developed topsoil. In places like Ethiopia, or Arizona, chemicals can sometimes mean the difference between any crop or no crop. We should not abandon chemicals entirely, just realize the places where nature is superior.
Oil companies have addicted the public on their chemicals, without really making a fair competition of it. People spray their Miracle Grow, and then the next year, if they forget it, the dead soil starts killing their plants, until they apply Miracle Grow again. Now they're hooked, because they don't realize that first application massacred the beneficials in their soil, causing it to deplete rather than sustain. Good organics is a process of long-term management of our resources.
The real problem is too many people. If we didn't breed so intensely, we wouldn't need all the food we make anyway. That's a whole different topic though, even if it is related.
I really believe chemical fertilizers are terrible on many levels, but they do work. Obviously they work. It was our lack of understanding how to tweak the organics that stopped it from being so effective in the past. As a poster above mentioned, organic and chemical fields in one country both improved on a similar curve. Both benefit from modern science. It's just that now we're becoming aware of how incredible soil biology really is, and how powerful it can be if tuned properly.
Aside from corn I will also mention one other environment where chemicals actually do positive things. That would be hot, dry regions. The heat makes the soil biology poor, as does the lack of water, and the lack of developed topsoil. In places like Ethiopia, or Arizona, chemicals can sometimes mean the difference between any crop or no crop. We should not abandon chemicals entirely, just realize the places where nature is superior.
Oil companies have addicted the public on their chemicals, without really making a fair competition of it. People spray their Miracle Grow, and then the next year, if they forget it, the dead soil starts killing their plants, until they apply Miracle Grow again. Now they're hooked, because they don't realize that first application massacred the beneficials in their soil, causing it to deplete rather than sustain. Good organics is a process of long-term management of our resources.
The real problem is too many people. If we didn't breed so intensely, we wouldn't need all the food we make anyway. That's a whole different topic though, even if it is related.
RESINvention
Active member
Too many people? Heh, don't worry.. nature has a way of balancing out everything.. eventually..
I forgot to mention how someone did a comparisson of an organically grown cucumber vs. a chemically grown cucumber.. The organically grown cuc. (while not as large as the conventional) outsurpassed the chem cuc. in nutritional analysis.. Had like 4x - 10x more nutritional content... Now that's literally food for thought..
Has anyone ran the same strain, and did organic vs. chem., and realized the organic got you more stoned? I'm curious, I'm almost sure it would.. especially knowing the data from the cucumber.
And SB, You were concerned about the nitrogen from organics being leached up during flowering.. It's from my understanding that this won't happen, as the plant assimilates all the necessary nutrients it needs to blossom.. meaning it'd grab more P and K than N, naturally.. Correct me if I'm wrong.. But you can't overfeed on Organics.
I forgot to mention how someone did a comparisson of an organically grown cucumber vs. a chemically grown cucumber.. The organically grown cuc. (while not as large as the conventional) outsurpassed the chem cuc. in nutritional analysis.. Had like 4x - 10x more nutritional content... Now that's literally food for thought..
Has anyone ran the same strain, and did organic vs. chem., and realized the organic got you more stoned? I'm curious, I'm almost sure it would.. especially knowing the data from the cucumber.
And SB, You were concerned about the nitrogen from organics being leached up during flowering.. It's from my understanding that this won't happen, as the plant assimilates all the necessary nutrients it needs to blossom.. meaning it'd grab more P and K than N, naturally.. Correct me if I'm wrong.. But you can't overfeed on Organics.
Good post Magic. I've always been kinda leary of the Flower-Tone because of it's phosphorous source, which is a type of super phosphate. It's been several years since I've read up on it, but it was said then, that type of phosphorous would over dose the micro's so it's not used in organics. I don't know if they still use that as a source, or if the outlook on it has changed any since then?
The second paragragh makes a very good point, on more than jus one level. If yer limited to places you can grow outside like I am, it's important you don't use chem nutes every year. It will indeed fry the life outta the soil...... But organics on the otherhand, does the oppisite. When a plant grows it exudes wastes out the roots, this waste is eaten by the micros, keeping the plant healthier and happy. Keep in mind micro's also create humates, and that is the essence of organics. Humates allows a plant to feed regardless of what the PH is, it will also allow a plant feed on a -much- wider range of ions and compounds of ions.
Growing in the same spot also allows you to take advatage of the fungi's that have already been established in the soil from years past. This fungi attaches itself to the roots and reaches way farther out in the soil than the roots do by them selves. Making a spider web like off the roots in all the surrounding soil. If there's any water at all in the soil, it will suck it out along with extra nutes.
A lil preping is all it takes to get the ball rolling. later, BC
G
Guest
I use epsoma products and like them.
One big problem i have with organics is the attraction of animals to many of the food crop ingredients they use in the mix. Ive had more plants dug up with that shit. Ive taken to planting by using a 1' sqare of mesh wire with a hole in the center. It helps but they can still kill the plant trying to dig it up. Skunks and possums are the culprits.
One big problem i have with organics is the attraction of animals to many of the food crop ingredients they use in the mix. Ive had more plants dug up with that shit. Ive taken to planting by using a 1' sqare of mesh wire with a hole in the center. It helps but they can still kill the plant trying to dig it up. Skunks and possums are the culprits.
NO NO NO.... that won't work either 
MG is the only way to go! 
jus kidding. That would work very well Fisher. There are many ways to grow organic and get big yeilds, if that's what you really choose to do. Knowledge is power there my friend.
Btw, I reckon I've been lucky using Plant Tone, I haven't had any problems with critters diggin it up. There seems to be plenty around here too. I dunno, by the time I mix it in, you can't even see it there, it's spread so thin and the particle size is so small. I would think they'd have to walk right over the top of to smell it. Maybe if it's a problem, you could jus back fill the last 6 inches with dirt that doesn't have any in it? so they don't smell it...... naaah, use the MG! lol Take care... BC
MG is the only way to go! jus kidding. That would work very well Fisher. There are many ways to grow organic and get big yeilds, if that's what you really choose to do. Knowledge is power there my friend.Btw, I reckon I've been lucky using Plant Tone, I haven't had any problems with critters diggin it up. There seems to be plenty around here too. I dunno, by the time I mix it in, you can't even see it there, it's spread so thin and the particle size is so small. I would think they'd have to walk right over the top of to smell it. Maybe if it's a problem, you could jus back fill the last 6 inches with dirt that doesn't have any in it? so they don't smell it...... naaah, use the MG! lol Take care... BC
