Fertilizer and Yield

[Guest]

Good discussion!! I dont mind anyone disagreeing with me. I love to discuss pot and there's not much to discuss if everyone agrees. Ive never been one to think less of a person because they see things differently than me. You might be suprised at what you can learn by discussing issues with those who hold different views than you do. Plus, nearly everything about cannabis is subjective and user centered.

Its also nice that so many members come out of the woodwork that we havent seen in a whille. Hey little J and BC.

A couple of points:
1.The debate over whether chemical ferts are superior to organic ferts with regaurd to yield is a debate that is over and settled folks. It was settled a few years after the intoduction of chems.. The rest of the farming community, from California to Kazikistan knows that organics simply cant produce the yields that chemical fertilizers can. Thats not something ive just set on fire and thrown out here.

Smokey,take a little trip to the grocery to buy some organically grown food, you will find that its much more expensive simply because organic yields are much lower and labor more extensive.

2. With regaurd to nutrients, a plant needs nutrients, NPK, and minerals to grow properly. It is my contention that cannabis is unconcerned with the nature of that npk. Whether it comes from a box of miracle grow,a pattie of cow poop or liquid Karma, the plant don't know and dont care. The only relative consideration is how quick the nutrients are available to the plant and this is why we need the water solubles.. Every organic fert that ive tried takes as long as a week or more to work, while water solubles are sucked up and show results in 4 hrs.


Someone asked " What kind of yeilds do i get"? The answer to that question is simple and the same answer i would give about every other crop grown on the farm. Whether its corn, tobacco, sunflowers or any other crop, if ive provided the NPK that ag universities have determined is optimum for crop yeild, then my yeild on all of those crops is high. The same rule applies to cannabis. Adversly, there will be a reduction in yield in all of the crops, including cannabis that would be equal and directly related to the reduction of chemicals from that amount considered to be optimum..... and that folks, is why if chems arent used during the preflower growth period a loss in yield is experienced.

 

[RESINvention]

this thread is bogus.

Uhmm not really...
-------------------

Nice thread SB.. great insight and reminder to us all. I'm not sure why your post upset a few people, I re-read it, and you're not bashing anything, but giving us your honest opinion. It's funny because my grow fits perfectly into what you're saying too.. I'm at 38 lat. too, and I've always been shy about over-doing it with chem fertz for fear of burning, or nute lock-out.. (I'm using MG for veg, and mixing in a MG for tomatoes every other feeding) (also, organics you wouldn't have to worry about this). Now I'm going to try and up my dosage, especially from what you have said. Throughout the remainder of my grow, I will slip it some organic teas, and towards harvest it'll be pure organic.. I want the chems to do exactly what you said SB, especially in this crucial time period.. Maximize growth.. then slowly decrease chem, and increase organic as we shift towards flowering.

Don't get me wrong either.. I love organics.. graduated with a degree in the related field..

Pretty much: You grow soil, not plants.. not too many people have this understanding.

And everything everyone said so far is pretty much true.. It really boils down to your "specific" situation..

Chem fertz & pesticides will destroy your soil over time, off-balancing ph, destroying essential micro-life, killing topsoil, adding to polluted run-off, and many more things.. This is why farmers rotate their crops, or leave fields "unplanted" for a season, as they are trying to restore the balance back into the soil.. but it will never be as good as it was before, unless they start focussing on ways to promote micro-life and diversity within their soil, instead of destroying it.

With that said, take into consideration:

*Will you be planting next year in the same location?

*Do you mind how your product tastes and smells? (organics boost terpene production)

*Are you selling or consuming? (organic has a higher retail value, also the moral dilemmas of distributing a "not-so-pure" product that can cause more harm to you (ahem.. antimatter))

*Does Yield concern you?(quantity over quality?)

*Are you growing outdoor or indoor?(rodents associated with tearing up organic soil)

*What are you growing near?(if its your backyard.. ferts could leak into a well water system, and you'll be bathing in the same stuff your plants are eating... if it's near a water source with endangered aquatic life, it could impact their survival.. if it's a concern for global warming and green house gases, the fertilizer in the runoff will dramatically increase algae growth in surrounding water bodies, a known cause for greenhouse gasses)

*What condition are your plants in?(If they need more root mass, switch to organic.. if they are burnt from chems, use organic.. etc.)


Just some light on the situation. And I'm not bashing chems at all, I'm freakin using them! Pretty much it's all circumstantial.. But for those who needed a little more insight, there ya go

 

[scaramanga]

Some Good info in this thread. My experience has been that a combination of a properly amended organic soil along with the mild use of Chemical fertilizers provides me with the best results. When I say mild I usually add them at about 1/2 strength, and feed infrequently; provided you're using soil with a sufficient quantity of organic nutes to begin with.

I also use Chem fertilizers because the quantities needed are far smaller than with organics. It may not seem like a big difference, but when you're packing in you're soil for several miles over mountainous and uneven terrain, and do it frequently, the amount of weight you carry can add up very quickly. If I can replace a couple of pounds in my pack now, with a few ounces of Chem ferts later, well then so be it. As a result my more difficult plants to get to have smaller holes and less material in them, so I'm forced to rely chem ferts to achieve similar results. If I could keep them in my backyard I wouldn't use anything but organics in monstrous holes, but that's just not feasible if your doing a guerrilla grow covering a good amount of area on foot.

The most important thing is that you find something that works for you. After you deal with your plants for a few years you get a sense of what they need or will need.

Gratuitous pic of plants enjoying summer;98 deg when pics were taken. These have been out for 3 weeks, and were put out as 8 inch clones, the cages they are in are about 3 feet high.

 

[Fingaz2]

Nice one Silver, I hear what ya saying, but........
I think that organic would be able to compete with chem ferts for yield, but....
it would take maybe 3 years to build the right soil profile to compete, it may not be possible to do this in a gerrilla situation, hauling all that stuff. Poultry manure can & will compete with any chem An ferts, the right choice of manures will provide season long p & k. But shit man its going to take an awfull lot of work & attention to detail.
Two points, you will taste the difference, all those chems are putting an awfull lot of salt in the ground, you can taste them. The buds grown with chems have a slightly different texture, stiffer stalks on the leaves, leaves are stiffer also & these tend to be more brittle when dry, rather than soft & downy, hope that makes sense. These in turn result in a harsher smoke, bit more bonfire smell.
Alot of crops cereals, corn, roots etc new research is now showing their roots travel down alot further than previously thought. The fine hair roots of wheat can travel down up to 8 ft. Maize & Mj would probably do the same. In a mature plant they are then able to pull up fert salts from previouse rotations/applications, from the ground water. The trick here is to get the plant to that stage where it can do it. Chems will acheive this easily.
Chem ferts will always produce more mould, the link between Chem AN mould & fungus is well documented. Those chemical fert farmers you talk about would not produce anything like those yields if they did not use an armoury of Fungicide sprays. Chem ferts & fungicides go hand in hand, they are dependant on each other in modern agriculture.
Weed loves nutes, organic or chem. Mould like nutes too.
On a well grown MJ plant, you will not be able to pull it out of the ground, its roots are down there pulling up ferts that you didnt put there.

 

[magiccannabus]

Aerated compost tea is a pretty new concept compared to the whole history of organic farming. Today's organics are not what your ancestors were using. They didn't really know the science of it, and couldn't maximize it. I contend that organics can deliver everything the plant wants and needs, and so can chemicals. Dialed-in, there should be no difference. For crops in general, farmers often seem to not account for the sustainability aspect of it. Yes an organic field may not yield as much each year(though I believe it can), but even if it does not yield more, it still is richer soil in the following year than you'd have after a year of chemical spraying. The established biology, especially combined with no-till and erosion control, keeps the nutrient cycle healthy long-term.

The only big exception to this IMO is growing corn. Corn is a freak plant though. It can't even really survive in the wild anymore, it rapes the soil, and it's hard to digest. It's really a horrible crop for humans. Sorghum is a much better crop in terms of soil impact, but Americans are addicted to corn and wheat. I wouldn't expect corn's unnatural need for food to be representative of plants in general. If anything, I think corn highlights why mankind needs to be more careful what path they take when trying to toy with the development of life. In many ways it is a miracle in terms of how much humans have changed it to their desires, but it is no longer a natural plant. I think this makes it misleading when you see corn do better with chemicals and then think it will always lead to better results with more natural plants. Despite how much cannabis has been worked, it's still pretty wild.

 

[PrinceOfPersia]

Magiccannbus.. Couldnt be said better, i agree so much!

The reason chem ferts took over all the world is not because it yields better, but because its cheaper and can be produced in big amounts in all continents...

Sure it yields better for some but less for others. depends on the situation!..

 

[THC123]

I stopped using chems cuz of canna pk13/14 i can taste if a bud has had pk13/14 even with flush doesnt matter ruins taste and smoke experience.

Besides when making vegging and flowering mixes you cover the plants need for extra N in the stretching period

 

[Guest]

Magiccannbus may be somewhat right. I havent done a lot of research on organic breakthroughs and with demand for it becomming stronger, I suspect there may be more in the future. I also agree with most of whats been said in this thread by others.

I sort of disagree with POP. Those poor N. Korean peasants werent scraping up every pellet of fert because it was cheaper to produce or is produced in big amounts although those 2 aspects are assets. They were scaping for every nuget because they know that it translates into "more".

I didnt intend to denograte anybody else Resininvention. I'm really just pushing a little in an effort to get cannabis farmers to consider nutrients the way the rest of the farming world views them. I think most cannabis growers consider yield a genetic factor and that if one is to get decent yields, the strain is the focus. While yield capacity is somewhat genetic. Actuall yield is less so.

I don't want to be a salesperson for Miracle grow either. I use it because its cheap and easy to get. Ive grown some big plants with MG, and if i run out, i go to the store. Water soluble nutes are what im after. Ive used Rapid Grow, Bloom Buster and many other brands as long as its water soluble. I use water soluble, fast acting lime and water soluble urea,(26-0-0) as well.

 

[MrMcBean]

Thanks for this great post silverback. My plants are going on 4 feet and i dont fertilize besides the little 6month time release pellets i mixed in the soil (17/14/16 npk).

Now im taking your word on this so i want more ferts. I already have PK 13/14 laying around, Im guessing i will fert with pure N for a few weeks and use th pk 13/14 very lightly later on.

Will a N fertilizer be the right thing to use for the next 60 days? or do i need to make it more complicated? what is the ratio on your Miracle Gro? (dont have that here) And what ratio should I look for when not using "Urea" ?

Thanks,

peace

 

[Guest]

You know MrMcBean, even though im sure many people use them successfully, i personally avoid the timed released pellets becuase of the lack of control one has when using them. Once the petroleum based ferts have been released into the soil, they're there and youre stuck with them no mater what.

The nutes im using during the veg/grow period and until about the 2nd week of august is 30-15-15. Beginning in a couple of weeks, ill supplement that with a pure nitrogen such as urea. Epsoma makes a water soluble nitrogen that is very good.

What I do is to use a water soluble fert that is high in nitrogen and use it from now until 2 weeks after you see the first flowers and then shut it off altogether. Wait 2 weeks, and add 1 or 2 good doses of flowering nutes and you should be good to go.

 

[fisher15]

Someone asked " What kind of yeilds do i get"? The answer to that question is simple and the same answer i would give about every other crop grown on the farm. Whether its corn, tobacco, sunflowers or any other crop, if ive provided the NPK that ag universities have determined is optimum for crop yeild, then my yeild on all of those crops is high. The same rule applies to cannabis. Adversly, there will be a reduction in yield in all of the crops, including cannabis that would be equal and directly related to the reduction of chemicals from that amount considered to be optimum..... and that folks, is why if chems arent used during the preflower growth period a loss in yield is experienced.

So your yield is 'high' ?

What does that mean ?

Since this thread is about yield, I'm saying I grow 3, 4++ pounders with no chems at all! Compost teas, dry nutes, small supplements with age old, peacefull valley's omega, and later P guanos.

If you're growing to maximize yield and not pulling multiple P's per plant something is wrong. I and many others do it, and organically.

 

[slider420]

Damn..This is a great post...I guess it's a Tie... If you can go organic do so.. but us guys who have to grow right under the "mans eyes" go Chem...maybe??? whatever floats you boat.... Peace

 

[Grandma Gudenhi]

Damn..This is a great post...I guess it's a Tie... If you can go organic do so.. but us guys who have to grow right under the "mans eyes" go Chem...maybe??? whatever floats you boat.... Peace

This is an interesting post. It's all about learning new things and hearing different views. I heard some interesting ideas here that I'll be doing some research on.
I think, if organics were easier for guerilla growers, many would learn to go for that. Especially if they're growing for their own smoke. Once you've been smoking organic for a while, you can really taste the chemicals in chem grown.
Plus, with organics, once you get the dirt good, you dont really need to add anything along the way. Which is actually much easier.
My garden, for the past few years, has gotten nothing but good dirt, a dose of fish emulsion about halfway through veg, and a dose of Earth Juice Bloom when they start to flower.
This year we're experimenting. We're using a line of products from BioCanna throughout the season. I'm curious to see if we will have a 6+ pounder this year. (we had three last year that were around 5+ pounds)

 

[antimatter]

I can grow organic and would love to be able to amend massive holes on my property and grow monsters all organic and take advantage of years to come, but as a guerrilla grower it just isn't practical and retail price of pot does not change for using organics at all they don't care, a lot of the pot is just currency for organized crime which morally is shit, but until the government lets us get licenses to grow in our backyards and provide medicine to patients and requires organics it will not happen.

 

[fisher15]

Dude it can be as simple as throwing out the MG and picking up a bottle of organic grow and bloom nutes.

 

[SmokeyTheBear]

Dude it can be as simple as throwing out the MG and picking up a bottle of organic grow and bloom nutes.

exactly. a box of miracle grow. $7.99. a 3 lb bag of seabird guano 15$. a little more expensive, but in my opinion, much better for the plant. maxicrop fish poop. 26$ for 4 liters but great for plants.

 

[Sparky14]

As a confirmed ironist Smokey Bear, I must make the following observation.

You declared this thread to be bogus, talk smack, and declare yourself to be all about organics.

I observe in your gallery that you apply SEVIN to your tiny plants. I offer the following thread to alert you to the genuine dangers of this pesticide.

http://pmep.cce.cornell.edu/facts-slides-self/facts/gen-pubre-sevin.html

 

[antimatter]

Dude it can be as simple as throwing out the MG and picking up a bottle of organic grow and bloom nutes.

extra visits to apply organic bloom nutrients or anything you gotta add often and hauling extra weight is just not practical, not to mention crazy animals.
Not only do I have to be out in the middle of nowhere in the bush, stuff has to be done in the middle of the night to avoid forestry/logging companies, hikers, 4x4's, atvs, police busting mountain grows list can go on...its a crazy world out there

 

[SmokeyTheBear]

As a confirmed ironist Smokey Bear, I must make the following observation.

You declared this thread to be bogus, talk smack, and declare yourself to be all about organics.

I observe in your gallery that you apply SEVIN to your tiny plants. I offer the following thread to alert you to the genuine dangers of this pesticide.

http://pmep.cce.cornell.edu/facts-slides-self/facts/gen-pubre-sevin.html

and as i have stated in many of my posts. Sevin is the only thing that i've learned from my years of experiences, that will stop the bugs dead in there tracks, without constant application after every rain shower. organic feeding is what i'm about. i believe this thread was about feeding plants chemically or organically correct? oh yeah. once the plants are big enough and become producing their own fighting capabilities the use of sevin for me stops. the only way sevin is going to hurt someone is if it's used during flowering. please know what you're talking about.

 

[slider420]

Right on...Too much crap to do when your ninja style....Don't want to leave trails....