Eagle 20 PM Killer, Cancerous?
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Guest3498
Eagle20 killed my paw... and raped my maw!!
I stumbled in here 2 months ago and had a thought, so I left..
And now that I'm back, it's confirmed - I think this is where I'll come when I'm really angry and have lots of semi-relevant ranting to do.
And now that I'm back, it's confirmed - I think this is where I'll come when I'm really angry and have lots of semi-relevant ranting to do.
odogyouknow
Member
These are the questions and potential use that come from the uninformed and relentless promoting of E20 by folks who will remain nameless....
ahemmm couple posts up.Stasis, if you decide to use it safest way to use E20 as per instructions is in the early stages of the plants life allowing the active ingredient to dissipate before we harvest and smoke it. Used close to harvest the end product will most likely contain significant amounts of the active ingredient... which is still up for debate whether or not is bad for you.
MAny of us in the thread would advise against using E20... Some use it.
S
SeaMaiden
Some of us here have advised against using it and have offered other methods to deal with it, such as focusing on plant health (read Yosemite Sam's posts on brix and sap pH) instead of treatments. I personally have found that this is the true path to long term success with fish husbandry as well as other animals, I don't see why it wouldn't be true here. Those organisms that are at their healthiest are normally able to deal with most pests and disease on their own.
The notion that powdery mildew is automatically bad for you appears to be incorrect. This is not the case with all forms of fungi/mold/mildew, but outside of damage to the crop itself making it undesirable in the marketplace, I cannot find papers or examples of illness caused by powdery mildew ingestion, whether by eating or smoking. I have put out this request before, including in this thread, for citable, verifiable examples of illness caused directly by PM and so far have not had anyone meet that request.
And, as I have stated previously in this thread and others, E20's propensity to cause resistance is well known and documented, and is causing problems for apple growers. It is trite, and incorrect, to respond with, "Well, *everything* causes resistance if it's overused!" because that is not true, it's only easy to throw out there. I have plenty of papers, etcetera, to back this up.
The notion that powdery mildew is automatically bad for you appears to be incorrect. This is not the case with all forms of fungi/mold/mildew, but outside of damage to the crop itself making it undesirable in the marketplace, I cannot find papers or examples of illness caused by powdery mildew ingestion, whether by eating or smoking. I have put out this request before, including in this thread, for citable, verifiable examples of illness caused directly by PM and so far have not had anyone meet that request.
And, as I have stated previously in this thread and others, E20's propensity to cause resistance is well known and documented, and is causing problems for apple growers. It is trite, and incorrect, to respond with, "Well, *everything* causes resistance if it's overused!" because that is not true, it's only easy to throw out there. I have plenty of papers, etcetera, to back this up.
THIS.
I'm all about working diligently to make sure PM doesn't get a foothold, but I've had a few harveys that were mucked up by some PM. (My Purple Mr. Nice seemed to be quite prone..)..
However, in asking about the dangers, all I seemed to get in response was ZOMG NO IT'S BAD. ..
THE CDC JUST RELISED A REPORT THAT SAYS 75% OF ALL PEOPLE WILL HAVE CANCER IN THE NEXT TWENTY YEARS!CALI LAST YEAR ALOWED THE FARMERS TO USE A NEW PESTISIDE ON STRAWBERRYS ,IT THE SAME CHEMICAL USE IN LABS TO INDUCE CANCER IN RATS ,THE CHEMIST REFUSE TO USE IT IN FEAR THEY MIGHT STIC THEM SELVES ,CRAZY ?NAW ,NWO ?YES
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YosemiteSam
I probably would not argue it is relatively safe sprayed in veg. But (maybe not by you) I am guessing it gets sprayed a lot later than that by lots of growers. At that point me brain says...hmmmmm, I wonder.
Plus...let's look at the argument from the other side...show, beyond the shadow of a doubt that PM is harmful to you. (and yea, that is kinda an asshole thing...but it is exactly the argument presented earlier in this thread from the other side)
And out of curiosity...have you tried KSil as a spray yet? Would you be willing to spray a plant at the same time with it as you do others with Eagle 20 and watch it? Have you tried reducing nitrate? Have you tried playing with your NH4 to NO3 ratio so that the actual media pH is 6.4? Have you had your soil tested to see what the base saturation of Ca and Mg are?
And out of even more curiosity if you knew the combination of those things would flat end your PM worries...would you go to the trouble or would you continue to use Eagle 20?
I know there is a certain appeal to loading the fuck out of a plant with nitrates and then dealing with the consequences chemically...I just wonder how much appeal there is to not doing that for a commercial grower.
for the record...the higher my brix levels get through this approach the higher my yields have gotten...not the other way around. yes, it has been a lot of work...but fun at the same time.
RedReign
Active member
I live in the desert (where I'm guessing PM isn't common) and grow in sealed rooms that I easily control temps, humidity, etc in. So PM isn't a problem for me, hence, I don't have a reason to use Eagle20. So I don't have a dog in this fight, I just find this thread entertaining.
But the paragraph above in bold is ridiculous.
So now it's OK to smoke PM infested bud because there aren't any studies that show it's harmful? Really? I mean REALLY? Haha wow, I really needed a good laugh today. That may be one of the stupidest things I've ever read on the internet, and that's really saying something.Hmmm, decisions, decisions. Do I smoke PM infested buds today? Or do I smoke bud that was prayed with Eagle20 in veg 70+ days prior? Tough choice. NOT!
Old Man River
New member
Looking at that MSDS, I would not use Eagle 20, especially as there are alternative to PM treatment with no question as to whether they are carcinogenic or not.
OMR
OMR
well let me make it even clearer
mycobutinal is mobile in the environment, so it leaves the soil beds and dissipates into the ground. It does not magically eveporate and disappear. this is how they determined proper application
this is documented and it is also documented that it can build up and become a residual and that it is systemic
the difference in indoor application there is no environment outside the rhizopshere (plants root system) for the mycobutinal to dissipate to.
so the toxins don't have a world to dissipate into and get diluted into relative nothingness over time
they sit in a container, continually exposed to the root zone, a systemic compound in a closed environment.
heady shit
sounds like you both need to add some "tools" to your tool box and integrity to your medicinal offers
so safe methods are being used successfully in mass on fruit crops that are worth infinitesimally less than marijuana and your hoping for the day it can be applied to cannabis cultivation?
so your saying there is NO organic marijuana in California without PM
its IMPOSSIBLE?
no bro its impossible for a bunch of dudes who can't think past the suggestion forma guy a the local hydro shop
you grow just for you? your weeds never pass another persons lips?
shhhh...
i'm trying to watch hatfields vs mccoys up in this piece.
i'm trying to watch hatfields vs mccoys up in this piece.
S
SeaMaiden
I love breaking paradigms, even my own.
Re-read what I stated. I'm looking for studies that show anything at all in terms of negative effect on humans by ingesting powdery mildew. I CAN'T FIND IT. And the thing is, there should be something out there, I would think.
So, I've queried those in the health professions. Can't find anything through them, either. I've queried the scientists I know, can't find anything that shows, one way or the other, effects of ingestion of powdery mildew, whether in fruiting body form or simply by ingesting tissues of infected plants.
So, if that's not out there, considering all the tobacco people smoke that must be at one point or another susceptible to powdery mildew, what conclusions does someone who's actually thinking about it draw?
If a person wants to (try) to be even more intelligent about how they go at this thing of cannabis cultivation, then they should be intelligently addressing pest and disease issues and using the closest corollary we can find for treating a plant for which NO product's use is approved. Tobacco is smoked, cannabis is smoked. Tobacco is, unfortunately for cannabis growers, turned around in about 5-6mos. Is E20 approved for use on tobacco? Absolutely NOT.
Again, I personally prefer to focus not on palliative treatment, or emergency treatment, but on so improving the health of my plants that pest and disease problems no longer exist.
Your response is knee-jerk and automatic, which I understand, but dispute.
I hope you've had an awesome belly laugh because I figure if I can be nothing else in this world, at least I can be entertaining.
Ok, so you had a laugh misinterpreting what I said. Does that mean that you'd rather smoke Eagle 20? If so, awesome, have at it. If not, what then?
Re-read what I stated. I'm looking for studies that show anything at all in terms of negative effect on humans by ingesting powdery mildew. I CAN'T FIND IT. And the thing is, there should be something out there, I would think.
So, I've queried those in the health professions. Can't find anything through them, either. I've queried the scientists I know, can't find anything that shows, one way or the other, effects of ingestion of powdery mildew, whether in fruiting body form or simply by ingesting tissues of infected plants.
So, if that's not out there, considering all the tobacco people smoke that must be at one point or another susceptible to powdery mildew, what conclusions does someone who's actually thinking about it draw?
If a person wants to (try) to be even more intelligent about how they go at this thing of cannabis cultivation, then they should be intelligently addressing pest and disease issues and using the closest corollary we can find for treating a plant for which NO product's use is approved. Tobacco is smoked, cannabis is smoked. Tobacco is, unfortunately for cannabis growers, turned around in about 5-6mos. Is E20 approved for use on tobacco? Absolutely NOT.
Again, I personally prefer to focus not on palliative treatment, or emergency treatment, but on so improving the health of my plants that pest and disease problems no longer exist.
Your response is knee-jerk and automatic, which I understand, but dispute.
I hope you've had an awesome belly laugh because I figure if I can be nothing else in this world, at least I can be entertaining.
how can i raise my brix in hydro?
right before i flipped em, they were at 12.
at week 6 they're looking good, but my brix is down around 9.
is this normal?
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YosemiteSam
First of all that is really good for hydro. There are two things about hydro that really work against healthy plants..a) it is hard to get the proper Ca:Mg ratio and I suspect that is around 3:1 even for no media...most nutes are gonna be around 2:1 and b) it is super easy to overdo nitrates.
The real killer is that if you cut back nitrates chances are you will end up cutting some Ca...so improving b but hurting a. And it is why people tend to have serious problems with UCs from time to time in my opinion.
They push nitrate because it does pump the plant up in that system...but then get into trouble with the health of the plant
The other thing that could effect it would be if you are using like a micro where CaNO3 and micros are combined. When you cut back on the micro cause you don't need the nitrate you also cut back on all of the micronutrients...Zn, B, Fe, Mn, etc. That could also be an issue.
Tissue analysis would tell you the story.
edit...one other thought...foliar could help you. If you were to have Albion's Metalosate Ca or Calcium 25 and you sprayed the plants...and Ca was your problem...you would see a brix bump in a matter of hours. Likewise if you had Albion's micro mix, or brix mix or possibly even some kind of kelp thing...and sprayed...same thing if micros are the problem. You would try these on single plants
The real killer is that if you cut back nitrates chances are you will end up cutting some Ca...so improving b but hurting a. And it is why people tend to have serious problems with UCs from time to time in my opinion.
They push nitrate because it does pump the plant up in that system...but then get into trouble with the health of the plant
The other thing that could effect it would be if you are using like a micro where CaNO3 and micros are combined. When you cut back on the micro cause you don't need the nitrate you also cut back on all of the micronutrients...Zn, B, Fe, Mn, etc. That could also be an issue.
Tissue analysis would tell you the story.
edit...one other thought...foliar could help you. If you were to have Albion's Metalosate Ca or Calcium 25 and you sprayed the plants...and Ca was your problem...you would see a brix bump in a matter of hours. Likewise if you had Albion's micro mix, or brix mix or possibly even some kind of kelp thing...and sprayed...same thing if micros are the problem. You would try these on single plants
you're clearly on some next level type trip.
i so want to go organic.
just got this system dialed in though.
don't know if i have it in me to learn it all over again this very minute.
thanks for doing what you do.
i so want to go organic.
just got this system dialed in though.
don't know if i have it in me to learn it all over again this very minute.
thanks for doing what you do.
(JMS Stylet Oil) An Organic Solution & Alternative to kill PM in flowering stage without any toxicity or effect on smell/taste of the buds:
Eagle 20 70+ days before harvesting should be fine, especially if it was done early in veg Eagle 20 is a life saver.
For those worried about people using Eagle 20 late in flowering (which could be an issue, it's still up in the air) there is a very simple organic solution for those hit with PM or spidermites in the flowering stage (With no smell, taste or effect of the final bud).
JMS Stylet-Oil (Organically extracted from grass seed) It came out in in 2010 - and severs all PM cell-walls killing them instantly, where you can spray up to the day before harvest, with no toxicity or effect on the smell/taste/look of the buds.
From their JMS Stylet Oil's website:
"With its new advanced emulsification system, Organic JMS Stylet-Oil uses only the safest inert ingredients on EPA’s List 4. Each component of Organic Stylet-Oil’s formulation meets or exceeds “Food Grade Quality” standards making it a safe, environmentally friendly white oil formulation."
You can buy it here @ http://www.stylet-oil.com/cart/inde...id=185&zenid=e7f3c01233cf4502fdd33a9c0c2a2839
Eagle 20 70+ days before harvesting should be fine, especially if it was done early in veg Eagle 20 is a life saver.
For those worried about people using Eagle 20 late in flowering (which could be an issue, it's still up in the air) there is a very simple organic solution for those hit with PM or spidermites in the flowering stage (With no smell, taste or effect of the final bud).
JMS Stylet-Oil (Organically extracted from grass seed) It came out in in 2010 - and severs all PM cell-walls killing them instantly, where you can spray up to the day before harvest, with no toxicity or effect on the smell/taste/look of the buds.
From their JMS Stylet Oil's website:
"With its new advanced emulsification system, Organic JMS Stylet-Oil uses only the safest inert ingredients on EPA’s List 4. Each component of Organic Stylet-Oil’s formulation meets or exceeds “Food Grade Quality” standards making it a safe, environmentally friendly white oil formulation."
You can buy it here @ http://www.stylet-oil.com/cart/inde...id=185&zenid=e7f3c01233cf4502fdd33a9c0c2a2839
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Guest3498
Irony: arguing against eagle20 even though you have no proof that proper use harms, while simultaneously saying that it's ok to have pm on your buds because there is no proof that smoking pm harms.
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