Defoliation: Hi-Yield Technique?

[spangles]

I have similar constraints to Bob Hope (thanks for the photo evidence, lots of love there), I'm a personal grower, I want no commercial contact. strictly for me so therefore I need more bang for the buck. In my case the "buck" is the venting, the 400 + 250 supplement, the small table and the security. For commercial growers this is probably not worth it. It is for small growers who passionately love petting their plants. (I'm joking, maybe that is only my own perversion)
Thanks to everyone here for the most entertaining thread I've read in a while
spangles.

 

[slowandeasy]

What are you smoking? Experiments are designed to prove something, weather it be positive or negative. How and why would any scientist be offended by experimentation? Obviously I have an open mind, unlike most people. All the naysayers are the ones who have their blinders on.


I have done the same plants in the same set up 6 times in a row now. I have one variable, defoliating. Everything else is the same. I know what my plants Normally yield. I have no preconceived outcome.

You yourself say the plant stops growing leaves in flower to direct energy to buds. So how much good are they really doing? They are real good shaders! And again, this is like 12x...I will post my results in a few days once final weight is in.

 

[mikeross]

I will post my results in a few days once final weight is in.

Looking forward to it... thanks for sharing

 

[cyat]

I have tried removing a lot of leaves ,none and a little.The best insight I got was outdoors.Without a doubt removing leaves weakened the plants natural defenses , and allowed easier access for insects and disease to attack!This tells me that it weakens the plant.Indoors it is not a big issue, but I can feel vibes and plants dont seem to like leaves being removed or any damage or stress , not including lst , etc ,which is more of a workout.Why take away part of the natural beauty of the plant which has evolved with leaves , over a long period of time.Longer than our short existence.That said I remove a some leaves if I have too, but keep this to a minimum.I wouldn't remove as many as some do.Look at some of the highest yielding growers on the net like Double D , and Heath, no defoliation.This is not the end all cure all.Gratefulhead,You need no apology to the haters your reputation , character and accomplishments speak for themselves. Whatever works for people , great!

 

[knna]

I'd like to see you back this up with a source please. I've always done some amount of defol and have never noticed the plant giving up on growing leaves because of it. Leaves are always a net energy gain. The plant naturally stops growing leaves in flower to direct energy towards bud production. Any benefit this method provides is not due to energy being redirected from leaves to buds.

Not source on this beyond experimentation.

Fortunatelly this thread started showing that something that seems to go against logic and what we thought that works for plants, actually not only works fine, but works exceptionally well.

So instead of losing time arguing against Nature, many people just concentrated on see how it works and hypothesite about it. Nobody in this thread has pretended to know the mecanism and processes involved. Just observing and extracting conclusions, not on a scientific way, but on practical sense.

Just the fact that many growers has strongly increased their yields using the technique should be enough to see it with an open mind. For sure we dont know exactly how it works, but it works.

What OP stressed since the beggining is that this tech is not about taking out some leaves that blocks light randomly or puntually. In order to notice that plant reaction, defoliation treatment must be sistematical. The sudden and massive defoliation produces the reaction. Finding the point at which the reaction happen but plant growth is not sttoped seems to be the key to master this tecnique, so probably it should be considered an advanced tech, for somewhat experienced growers that know how to read plants.

Indeed, OP said from the beggining he needed to start doing it since veg in order to get the rewards and adviced to do it just on bloom. Later on the thread other growers experimenting reported to get the same result using it just on bloom, but with a pair of deep DF starting at the end of strectching.

Of course plant never give up fully on some veg grow. Plants grows leaves again, but growers using this tech sistematically has all noticed a sudden drop on it, but that paradoxically not seem to affect at all budding. When done at the right times, there is much less fan leaves growing naturally and way more budsites. Plants seems to have enough with leaves into bud to fatten them at the extreme, as you can see on many pics posted along the thread.

Thats the fact, and we dont know exactly how it works. But it works (hormones?, reduced manteinance of veg tissues and not waste energy income on tissues we later manicure and consider waste?). Please read carefully the thread if you are trully interested on it, and do it with the open mind should have any true scientistic. What scientistist do when they read an article that goes against they believed is replicate the experiment and check for themselves.

Im sure with time we will go narrowing how it works and maybe being able to obtain same response using other techs, or combine this one with others to get the best as we go understanding what happen. Just along the months this thread exists many new things has appeared due the aportation of growers using it.

 

[bendoslendo]

Nobody in this thread has pretended to know the mecanism and processes involved.

Yep, you did.

For the abundant haters who likes to criticize that you dont understand, please notice that defoliation works not due the increased light avalaible for bottom areas (although bottom buds of course benefit from it) but mainly due plants react to defoliation by giving up wasting energy on vegetative parts, and concentrate all their energy on budding.

You amongst many others.

I'm not weighing in on the effectiveness of the method. Just your explanation of how it works.

 

[knna]

Yep, you did.



You amongst many others.

I'm not weighing in on the effectiveness of the method. Just your explanation of how it works.

No, I didnt.

You are confusing a description of what we observed with an explanation of the mecanism and processes that drives it.

I just described that an esential part of the method, and this was stated by OP since the beggining, is the increase of budsites and the reduction of fan leaves and stretching accomplished by the plant itself after the treatment. An esential part that haters were missing, still concentrated on just the argument of better penetration/less captured light due less leaves, and no seeing there is way more implied on this tech. As with most advanced growing techniques, what happen is way more complex than simplifications and intelectual constructions within many growers likes to narrow the huge adaptability of living organisms

We have talked about what may be the processes and mechanisms involved on it, but nobody pretended to know it. From the beggining OP tried to explain how he managed to increase his yields by using this technique just by explaining how to do it, in the practical sense. No complex explanations or intellectualizations (?) of how it works or why. Just show how to do it and what its capable of doing. A pure practical approach avoiding this sterile discussions.

Just apport a new growing tech to our growing resources.

Interested on it? Try it. Not sold on it? Dont try it. But dont critize if you havent tried it, and less yet, not say other people is impossible they are seeing what they are seeing (that is plain stupid).

 

[bendoslendo]

I just don't know what to say knna. You got me. Your logic is disturbingly Orwellian. You seem to have a propensity towards DoubleThink that would make The Party proud.


And I do defol, out of complete necessity. My scrog screens are densely packed with colas. There simply is no room for all the foliage the plant would like to grow. When I don't defol, the bottom half of my branches to not develop mature, medical grade budsites. The LARF does make high quality BHO though! muhahaha!

There are many advantages/effects of defoliating, several of which are explained here, so I won't repeat them.

My opinion (as if it were worth shit on an anonymous website): if light is hitting the floor instead of leaves... well your wasting light. Otherwise, don't block light from budsites and impede airflow with foliage.

 

[Japanfreakier]

I feel like I am in highschool now with b.s. claims and statements and no proof either way.

Does someone have side by side proof this DOES work?
Does someone have side by side proof this DOES NOT work?

or is everyone talking out their ass and simply stating it does/doesn't work based off of other shit you have read or heard online?

I've seen threads at other sites over the year that showed that it worked very well. Amazing yields with amazing quality. But the people were always quick to point out that you need to have the right plant like you would with any sog.

 

[Grat3fulh3ad]

And how many plants, how many grows did you try before you dismissed it? I'm going to guess once.

As usual you guess wrong.


It was tried to various degrees, until I ended up with LST and leaf tucking as the most bang for the buck. I'll still remove the odd leaf that can't be tucked back, but don't consider the occasional removal of a leaf or two to be a defoliation technique of any sort.

When I got my dad to move indoors, for the longest he thought that he could get more overall yield with more smaller buds than with few bigger buds. I won the argument by weighing bud, and proving my point. Yields were consistently higher removing larf sites than removing leaves to expose larf sites.

I would love to see someone settle this the same way.
Side by sides aren't hard to do, buds aren't hard to weigh.
No one is asking for anything unreasonable, just actual comparable data.

If claims are true, then make all the "haters" stfu by proving your point conclusively.
If you're not willing to prove your point, then you should stfu.

 

[Japanfreakier]

answer the question

 

[Grat3fulh3ad]

answer the question

what question? how many times did I perform the experiment?
4 or five... enough to prove my point.

Enough to make my stubborn father capitulate the point.

 

[VIKINGtrich]

Its a great idea, and I dont cut that many leaves off, but I do cut whatever is blocking light, which is alot, and I wouldn't have it any other way, I get great results....This is a cool thread, and I like the idea.....Nice job OP...

ANd why does this topic get people so pissed off? LOL..If you don't like removing leaves, Just don't do it, Its pretty easy really...People are some fucked up creatures, no doubt.

 

[VIKINGtrich]

Since it's a pain ducking all of the cow patties flying around this thread, I just want to know if the OP will be posting a summary of his experience with this method. For all of the naysayers, if this turns out to be the bomb, everyone in the business will have the free opportunity to profit from this experiment. So, instead of picking up more cow shit to fling, I suggest you take one of you prime plants and turn it into a comparison experiment and provide a summary of your experiences also. Maybe this cat (OP) is onto something here...we might find out - if he doesn't get disgusted and split before he figures it out! I, for one, would like to know! And it may be way too work intensive for a warehouse grower but may really help the small med grower trying to get a better result for his/her patients...isn't this supposed to be what this is about?

A reasonable person, that alot of us here, can learn from.....REASONABLE, is a trait Im not sure most humans are capable of.....My wife being one of those people, I tell her all the time, and it does no good, ...It goes back to this, for everything,......"Those that do not get IT, Don't know, that they do not get IT"...Truer words blah blah blah...

 

[Grat3fulh3ad]

Once more for the record.
I'm not saying it won't work in some situations.

I'm saying there are some situations where it would be useful, and some situations where other techniques would accomplish the same ultimate goals better.

I'm saying it is a bonsai technique.

Nothing I've said has been unscientific, inaccurate or unreasonable... even though those who like to play "You're either for me, or my enemy" try to cast my statements in that light.

Here's some stuff about defoliation that may be of interest.

How and why to defoliate your bonsai trees

The art of bonsai attempts to grow full scale trees in miniature. One not only needs to make the size of the overall tree and branches smaller, but the leaves as well. Full scale leaves on an otherwise miniaturized tree tends to ruin the perspective. People who practice the art of bonsai use a process called defoliation as one of the techniques to produce smaller leaves on their bonsai trees.


Defoliation explained

It has been a longstanding belief in the bonsai community that defoliation was used as a primary method to reduce leaf size, but this is not the case. Defoliation tends to cause ramification, branching, which in turn has the side effect of producing smaller leaves. The tree needs to maintain more branches and leaves than before so the same energy is distributed over the larger "network". Therefore, less energy goes into the production of any one leaf and the tree has more leaves to collect energy from. Smaller sized leaves come about as a result.


Reasons to defoliate your bonsai tree

The primary reason bonsai hobbyists defoliate is to increase the branching out of the tree which is known as ramification. Secondly, defoliating is believed to produce better fall colors in deciduous trees. Additionally, removing larger leaves allows light to penetrate areas that were shaded before. Lastly, if done correctly, it can be used as a technique to balance out the bonsai tree. For example, if one defoliates an area of denser growth it can cause less developed areas of the tree to respond and fill out more.


Defoliation precautions

There are some cases where defoliation can be harmful to a bonsai tree. One should never defoliate an unhealthy tree. As a general rule, bonsai trees that produce fruit should not be defoliated as they do not respond very well. After defoliating a tree its water needs will be lessened and watering should be reduced accordingly. Certain species such as ficus can exhibit branch dieback as a result of defoliation. Sometimes leaving some leaves on a branch reduces that risk. Lastly, one should be aware the defoliation process tends to temporary stop growth of a tree.


Defoliation techniques

There are mainly two ways of removing the leaves from your tree. The first is to pinch off the leaves with ones fingertips and the other is to use bonsai shears for leaf removal. Some prefer to leave the petiole, leaf stalk, as it is believed less damage to the tree will result. If one partially defoliates a tree it is best to remove the large exterior leaves to expose the smaller ones inside. If one totally defoliates a tree it is also a good time to do any wiring they may want to do as well since the tree branches are exposed. The leaves should come back within about 4-5 weeks.

http://www.mellobonsai.com/care/Bonsai-Care-Defoliation.aspx

 

[VIKINGtrich]

I would say that the OP's pictures pretty much say it all, Whats to be argued?

Looks like he hacked off alot of fan leaves, also looks like he got a very nice harvest.....NEXT QUESTION.

It is what it is.... Ive also had a few indica's with leaves so thick and big, that hardly anything under the top canopy was pale yellow and shit, again, if its not getting light, your not getting grade AAA bud...pretty simple.....LST, remove some leaves and get huge dense buds, that how I like my shit, ya'll can have the leaves.

And honestly, Im too scared to chop off all of the fan leaves, i will cut off a good bit, but if its not blocking light, i dont mess with it, or If I can tuck it, ill try that too, But It is very hard, IMO, to argue with the OP's results, looks like he has a very good outcome when he defoliates. Good on him...I like it.

Once upon a time, we didn't know how to clone plants either...lets evolve if possible...its a good thing.

 

[Massproducer]

Having pics of plants without showing a side by sides proving that the defoliated plant yielded more is basically useless. That is not proof of anything except that a defoliated plant can grow and yield well, but surely does not come close to proving that defoliated plants increase yield... The burden of proof lies on the party that made the claim not the detractors, especially being that SCIENCE is on the side of the detractors. The question is not if their will be ill effects but if it will actually increase yields, which no one has even attempted to prove in this entire thread. It was definiately an amusing thread with all of the mud that has been slung.

I for one am anxiously awaiting some type of actual objective evidence.

 

[JJScorpio]

This thread lasted over 100 pages with no problems and now all of a sudden it's gone to hell.

Anyone that wants to sit and be abusive can move along. There's no reason for namecalling....

 

[Japanfreakier]

Having pics of plants without showing a side by sides proving that the defoliated plant yielded more is basically useless. That is not proof of anything except that a defoliated plant can grow and yield well, but surely does not come close to proving that defoliated plants increase yield... The burden of proof lies on the party that made the claim not the detractors, especially being that SCIENCE is on the side of the detractors. The question is not if their will be ill effects but if it will actually increase yields, which no one has even attempted to prove in this entire thread.

I've seen the proof in the past at other sites that don't exist anymore or threads that have been deleted because of the fighting caused by detractors.

I don't know if it's been brought up and I missed it but one of the things this style allows is more plant numbers in a sog and I mean insane numbers.

 

[slowandeasy]

Once more for the record.
I'm not saying it won't work in some situations.

I'm saying there are some situations where it would be useful, and some situations where other techniques would accomplish the same ultimate goals better.

I'm saying it is a bonsai technique.

Nothing I've said has been unscientific, inaccurate or unreasonable... even though those who like to play "You're either for me, or my enemy" try to cast my statements in that light.

Here's some stuff about defoliation that may be of interest.





http://www.mellobonsai.com/care/Bonsai-Care-Defoliation.aspx

Head, the grow I just harvest was not Bonsai by any means. My plants were huge 3 to 4 foot. I culled all lower branches and defoliated only in flower. This is not just for bonsai, it is useful more than just small plants. If you only defoliate in flower.

If you defoliate in VEG, that is a whole different ball game. That is where you get the Bonsai growth. Last grow I did not start defoliating until the 3rd week of flower, after the stretch. Then about once a week or so. never in flower, that is why my plants grew more vertically. Plucking leaves in Veg will slow vertical growth immediately. Plucking a few times made more equal sized buds than ever. So instead of some Huge, medium and junk... I had a bunch of equal sized buds that were far more dense all the way down.

You said it yourself, more smaller equally nice buds will yield more than the other way. I promise to post my numbers in a few days. I just put them into Jars tonight and my hygrometers are reading perfect. I will wait a few days to make sure the humidity is perfect in the jars still. Then I will weigh.

I have 10 jars, and they are 1/2 Gal...which hold a lot each. Not regular sized mason jars...much larger. Anyhow I only have 6 hygrometers, because that is the most I have needed in the past. So I have almost double the Jars! All of the bud is more dense than usual, so I cannot wait to weigh it out. More jars, more density, more bud....hmmm I wonder if it worked?