Aliens, yay or nay?

[HempKat]

Who here is attempting to disprove aliens?

As Harry already pointed out, the burden of proof lies on the claimant. The more extraordinary the claim, the more extraordinary the evidence must be.

What I want to know is what makes anyone think the thread is about proving or disproving aliens or debating their existence. The intent of the thread was to take a poll. Presumably to see how many people believe vs how many that don't.

Nothing in that suggests either side has to prove or disprove their stance and no where is it required to try to change peoples minds (debate).

 

[bombadil.360]

Never claimed it was. I merely stated that the time to BELIEVE is AFTER reviewing sufficient evidence, not before. Until such time that YOU have reviewed said evidence, there's no reason for YOU to believe it. Easy enough?

easy enough. however, it still does not explain the need you have for evidence; as no one here is trying to make a believer out of you or anyone else.

no one here has stated that if you do not believe aliens are visiting the earth due to all the evidence that is out there, that you are an idiot or dumb ass.

on the contrary; it is you who have been insinuating that since according to you there's no credible evidence on the matter, that anyone believing in aliens visiting the earth are either delusional, stupid or both.

when I saw the ufo I saw, I was not looking to see any ufo, it just happened. then I started to check out videos and pictures of ufos to see if I could find something like what I saw, and sure enough I found.

also, using the excuse that such objects are called Unidentified to dismiss any proposals as to what their true nature is, is simply dishonest.

we know for sure that such objects are not of any known human technology for example, so in that sense, we indeed have Identified what they are not.

Scientific Discarding lets call it. Since we have discarded that they are not human technology as no one has any proof of similar human technology, the logical step that follows is that it must be extraterrestrial technology; why is this the next logical step? because we cannot say it is dolphin-made technology, or banana-tree made technology, now can we?

so the whole argument about "but it's a ufo, so you don't know" is not only dishonest but childish as well.

peace

 

[HempKat]

This thread is not about whether people have seen things they cannot understand in the sky. This thread is about whether ALIENS are interacting with humans here on (or above) Earth.

Actually it's just a simple poll of whether or not you believe in aliens. The bit about them interacting with humans on earth is assumed because someone included that as part of why they personally believe aliens exist.

 

[HempKat]

no example?

there are documents evaluating the phenomena not just a statement from millitary personal

i think you put yourself in a position where you cant go wrong by hidding behind the evidence rant about the deffinitions of evidence ect, so you can shoot down allmost everything. youdont need peer review but wont accept statements from people.
thats why i want you to give me an example.
you keep saying the same thing over and over, and many of us get your point. but it makes it seem like your in this discussion just to well for the the discussion it self.
and you keep dodging when hempcat and others got valid points

To be fair to Anti since I think he feels a little persecuted sometimes, he's telling you that documents of people seeing ufo's from people whether they be military, average citizens, scholars, homeless people, whatever do not prove aliens because it's just them saying they saw something that can't be identified. In other words that unidentified thing could be an alien space craft but it would require something like a picture where you can not only see the craft clearly but see the alien in it waving back at the camera, or alternatively a piece of that space craft that when analized turns out to be made from material not available on earth. In absense of that supporting evidence the UFO could just as easily be anything that could be in the place where it was spotted.

To illustrate what I mean lets say you're a pilot in a plane and you see an odd brown and white shape flying around at 30,0000 feet in a way that seems clearly controlled but you can't see it clearly enough to say for certain you know what it is. So you have a UFO because it's an object, it's flying but can't be identified. An alien space craft might be it because it could be brown and white and could fly in a controlled manner but without more evidence you can't say for sure. It could be a plane because a plane can be brown and white and fly in a controlled manner at 30,000 feet but without further evidence you couldn't say. It could not however be a cow, because although some cows are brown and white they don't fly around in a controlled manner at 30,000 feet.

 

[bombadil.360]

To illustrate what I mean lets say you're a pilot in a plane and you see an odd brown and white shape flying around at 30,0000 feet in a way that seems clearly controlled but you can't see it clearly enough to say for certain you know what it is. So you have a UFO because it's an object, it's flying but can't be identified. An alien space craft might be it because it could be brown and white and could fly in a controlled manner but without more evidence you can't say for sure. It could be a plane because a plane can be brown and white and fly in a controlled manner at 30,000 feet but without further evidence you couldn't say. It could not however be a cow, because although some cows are brown and white they don't fly around in a controlled manner at 30,000 feet.

the problem is that a pilot is pretty well aware of what Identifiable Flying Objects consist of.

so when they state that what they saw was an Unidentified Flying Object, it actually means that they knew it was none of the known human flying technology capable of such feats.

what does that leaves us with? like I said before: banana-tree technology?

 

[HempKat]

the problem is that a pilot is pretty well aware of what Identifiable Flying Objects consist of.

so when they state that what they saw was an Unidentified Flying Object, it actually means that they knew it was none of the known human flying technology capable of such feats.

what does that leaves us with? like I said before: banana-tree technology?

No it also leaves us with unknown human technology. Such as a top secret military craft from a country the pilot is not from. It also leaves us with some perfectly normal craft that isn't supposed to be where it is but for some reason it is and the pilot just didn't have good line of site to determine what it is.

Alot of what gets deemed a UFO happens because they check to see if something else has filled flight plans for that course and nobody has. So nothing should be there yet something is. Even if it looks like an ordinary plane it may still get classified as a ufo if they can't identify where the plane is from or who's flying it.

 

[avant gardener®]

i saw a spaceman drinking a pina colada at trader ricks.
and his hair was perfect.

 

[Harry Gypsna]

I dont think it got anything to do with arrogance, i kind a get what you mean, but what do you an me know what intentions alien would have?

something are just really hard to prove take physics for example. tahe the higgs boson try proving that it existed without the LHC thats impossiple but it does not mean it doesn´t exist, so it easy for sceptics to dismiss the theory of aliens visiting cause nobody got af damn ufo to prove the theory

no doubt that some or a lot off the sightings are something else, but i have little doubt that all off them are misidentified

how can we possible know what they think or how they will act. thats kind of arrogant

can YOU prove your conspiracy theorys

I posted no conspiracy theories, the US military has admitted it used UFO stories to cover up test flights, this is fact.
IF you meant what I said about some people who say they were abducted, well, there have been many instances where the US and UK governments have performed tests on unknowing citizens, MK Ultra for one of the top of my head, and bio-weapons testing in the UK(tests carried out on unknowing soldiers) for certain. I was speculating that it is much more likely to be governments/people working for them doing abductions. Nobody believed "Rendition" was happening at 1st until we got flight logs etc. I don't say alien abductees were kidnapped by the government, I say if they were kidnapped and experimented on, an earthly culprit is far more likely than little green/grey men who need humans to breed with.
I am open to the possibility that aliens have visited, but I don't think it is very probable, and until I see some EVIDENCE from a reputable source, not someone trying to sell me a dvd or a book or a conference ticket, my position will remain that I do not believe aliens have been here.
I don't believe in things without evidence, no aliens here, no leprechauns, no santa claus and no all knowing sky pixie who cares who you have sex with and likes the smell of burning blood.
I used to believe all kinds of woo and new age bollocks, I was a huge Graham Hancock fan but then I engaged my rational brain.
I won't return to this thread as frankly, trying to have a rational discussion on this topic is quite often like trying to hold a turd by the clean end, it aint gonna happen.

 

[bill cooper]

No it's quite clear from my posts that I'm open to the possibility they have visited the earth. I say that I don't think they have because science tells me that according to our best scientific minds it's not possible to travel between galaxies in any practical way because it would just take too long. Aliens may have discovered a way that we haven't though, so I can't rule out 100% that it's not possible. Now I myself have never seen an alien or a UFO other then in the movies and on TV, so this causes me to tend to lean more in favor of our scientific understanding of the limitations of intergalactic travel. If I had my own experiences that were as compelling as others feel their experiences were then I might be more inclined to lean the other way. All I really know for sure is that there are a whole shitload of people going all the way back to the dawn of mankind that seem to have had alien encounters and did their best to document them.

There's an old saying that goes something like, "If 1 person tells you you have a tail like a cat ignore them but if 10 people tell you, you better turn around and have a look for yourself"

In other words if it was just a few people from this current age that has such great special effects abilities I might ignore any claims of aliens but when I look and see that there are claims from ancient times all the way up to modern times and throughout the time in between from people of all walks of life and from people both educated and uneducated, it's kind of hard to just simply dismiss all those people from all those ages as being dellusional or full of crap.

So can you post these claims from ancient times that you speak of or are they in fact only claims of aliens because of the way you interpret them ?

 

[legalizeDK]

To be fair to Anti since I think he feels a little persecuted sometimes, he's telling you that documents of people seeing ufo's from people whether they be military, average citizens, scholars, homeless people, whatever do not prove aliens because it's just them saying they saw something that can't be identified. In other words that unidentified thing could be an alien space craft but it would require something like a picture where you can not only see the craft clearly but see the alien in it waving back at the camera, or alternatively a piece of that space craft that when analized turns out to be made from material not available on earth. In absense of that supporting evidence the UFO could just as easily be anything that could be in the place where it was spotted.

To illustrate what I mean lets say you're a pilot in a plane and you see an odd brown and white shape flying around at 30,0000 feet in a way that seems clearly controlled but you can't see it clearly enough to say for certain you know what it is. So you have a UFO because it's an object, it's flying but can't be identified. An alien space craft might be it because it could be brown and white and could fly in a controlled manner but without more evidence you can't say for sure. It could be a plane because a plane can be brown and white and fly in a controlled manner at 30,000 feet but without further evidence you couldn't say. It could not however be a cow, because although some cows are brown and white they don't fly around in a controlled manner at 30,000 feet.

you dont need to explain what anti thinks im well avare of it. i just asked for an example to what kind of evidence is suffient

 

[legalizeDK]

I posted no conspiracy theories, the US military has admitted it used UFO stories to cover up test flights, this is fact.
IF you meant what I said about some people who say they were abducted, well, there have been many instances where the US and UK governments have performed tests on unknowing citizens, MK Ultra for one of the top of my head, and bio-weapons testing in the UK(tests carried out on unknowing soldiers) for certain. I was speculating that it is much more likely to be governments/people working for them doing abductions. Nobody believed "Rendition" was happening at 1st until we got flight logs etc. I don't say alien abductees were kidnapped by the government, I say if they were kidnapped and experimented on, an earthly culprit is far more likely than little green/grey men who need humans to breed with.
I am open to the possibility that aliens have visited, but I don't think it is very probable, and until I see some EVIDENCE from a reputable source, not someone trying to sell me a dvd or a book or a conference ticket, my position will remain that I do not believe aliens have been here.
I don't believe in things without evidence, no aliens here, no leprechauns, no santa claus and no all knowing sky pixie who cares who you have sex with and likes the smell of burning blood.
I used to believe all kinds of woo and new age bollocks, I was a huge Graham Hancock fan but then I engaged my rational brain.
I won't return to this thread as frankly, trying to have a rational discussion on this topic is quite often like trying to hold a turd by the clean end, it aint gonna happen.

can you send me in the direction so ican find this my self cause i´ve never heard that

 

[HempKat]

i saw a spaceman drinking a pina colada at trader ricks.
and his hair was perfect.

I thought it was a werewolf? Everyone knows spacemen don't have no hair.

 

[bombadil.360]

No it also leaves us with unknown human technology. Such as a top secret military craft from a country the pilot is not from. It also leaves us with some perfectly normal craft that isn't supposed to be where it is but for some reason it is and the pilot just didn't have good line of site to determine what it is.

Alot of what gets deemed a UFO happens because they check to see if something else has filled flight plans for that course and nobody has. So nothing should be there yet something is. Even if it looks like an ordinary plane it may still get classified as a ufo if they can't identify where the plane is from or who's flying it.

if that's the case, that is, unknown human tech like secret military craft, or a plane where it should not have been, these are all well quite verifiable, and much more easy to verify and quantify than would be an extraterrestrial spaceship.

having said that, if anyone clams that alien spaceships are highly unlikely because of the above mentioned possible explanations, then, the burden of proof is on them.

 

[HempKat]

So can you post these claims from ancient times that you speak of or are they in fact only claims of aliens because of the way you interpret them ?

Not the way I interpret them I'm no Archeologist/Antropoligst. There are loads of examples from Ancient times that many say might be evidence of extraterrestrial contacts. Just because others can make a convincing arguement that these things don't say that doesn't mean that's not what they are saying. Unless we can go back in time and interview the people that made these claims thru carvings and such we can't be sure what they meant but to assume they absolutely didn't mean aliens just because someone in our time can convincingly say they didn't is as retarded as saying that they absolutely did mean aliens because someone in our time can convincingly present it that way. That's why I said several pages back that I wished they would show themselves to us if they do exist because it could clear up some mysteries.

Oh and I'm not going to bother posting them we've all pretty much seen them before at one time or another and made up our minds about what they mean or don't mean. I'm not suggesting I have new, never before seen evidence from ancient times.

 

[HempKat]

you dont need to explain what anti thinks im well avare of it. i just asked for an example to what kind of evidence is suffient

Simple, none that you can get your hands on because if such evidence existed there would be no debate on whether or not aliens exist.

 

[legalizeDK]

Simple, none that you can get your hands on because if such evidence existed there would be no debate on whether or not aliens exist.

true

 

[Hash Zeppelin]

the only proof you need that there is alien life out in the universe is math. Even if out of the billions of stars in our galaxy, our solar system is some how the only one that has evolved life in 13 billion years, it is still mathematically impossible that one of the other billions of galaxies in one of the billions of galaxy clusters has zero life in any of it. The galaxy wall our galaxy cluster is in is small compared to others. There are so many stars in the universe that we dont have a number for it even if we could count it, and there is at least ten times as many planets, and 20 times as many moons.

Mathematically there is a lot of life out there.

Humans are pathetic. we have not even gotten a probe out of the solar system officially yet. If anything we are observed like the primates we are. there is no way we could be part of an interstellar community. we are probably barred off till we evolve past monkey with hats.

 

[HempKat]

if that's the case, that is, unknown human tech like secret military craft, or a plane where it should not have been, these are all well quite verifiable, and much more easy to verify and quantify than would be an extraterrestrial spaceship.

How are they verifiable? Whose going to step up and say "Oh yes we have a top secret military craft we were testing that we were hoping to keep secret from you guys"? As for the plane off course, I would think that as a pilot, if you see something you think shouldn't be there the first step would be to rule out other planes and so verifying it as a plane not where it is supposed to be is what starts to make it a UFO, what seals the deal is if you can't make radio contact. U = unidentified, not unkown although it might be unknown as well as unidentified. If the pilot seeing them was sure it was a secret military craft or a plane off course he wouldn't report it as a ufo. you seem to be operating under the assumption it gets seen by the pilot so clearly that he can analyze it in great detail.

having said that, if anyone clams that alien spaceships are highly unlikely because of the above mentioned possible explanations, then, the burden of proof is on them.

Now this I agree with and I hope you realize I'm just being fair, you seemd to be jumping too quick for the banana technology option

 

[HempKat]

the only proof you need that there is alien life out in the universe is math. Even if out of the billions of stars in our galaxy, our solar system is some how the only one that has evolved life in 13 billion years, it is still mathematically impossible that one of the other billions of galaxies in one of the billions of galaxy clusters has zero life in any of it. The galaxy wall our galaxy cluster is in is small compared to others. There are so many stars in the universe that we dont have a number for it even if we could count it, and there is at least ten times as many planets, and 20 times as many moons.

Mathematically there is a lot of life out there.

Humans are pathetic. we have not even gotten a probe out of the solar system officially yet. If anything we are observed like the primates we are. there is no way we could be part of an interstellar community. we are probably barred off till we evolve past monkey with hats.

Actually my understanding is your last statement is false. I believe Voyager or one of the early probes was just recently reported as now leaving the solar system. In fairness to your point though that wasn't by plan or design. To be completely accurate though it would probably be better to say we've not intentionally gotten a probe beyond our solar system yet.

 

[legalizeDK]

an interview with former astronaut Edgar Mitchellon on the subject we are discussing

anti i know its not evidence

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4gp2E3mriXU