Ace Malawi and Cycloptics Greenbeams: caught in the Under Current!

[timmur]

Good luck. You get any beans sprouted? I was wondering: how tall you planning on growing the plants?

Hey Ez. I'm planning on trying to keep them around 4' tall or slightly taller. If they get taller they will definitely not enjoy the extreme light. I think my model indicates 1,400 PPFD at 64 inches from the ground which figures out to 4.33 feet once you account for the height of the UC modules. You think they will be too tall for the GB's?

I'm going to pull out all stops to minimize stretch and use training (mainline or Uncle Ben's topping method) to fully utilize the light available.

With so much light available, I'm going to manage light dosing (DLI) through shorter than usual photo-periods in veg. During early veg with all of the lights on, the "day length" will be about 15 hours and steadily decreasing by day until the plants are about 24 inches where I'll probably flip them. By then the day length will be down to about 13.5 hours to keep the DLI in check.

I can always lengthen the days if the plants will tolerate more light, but based on info I'm getting 50 moles/day is where the girls will tap out. All of the above was based on that assumption. We'll see once the grow is up and running.

 

[Ez Rider]

Hey Ez. I'm planning on trying to keep them around 4' tall or slightly taller. If they get taller they will definitely not enjoy the extreme light. I think my model indicates 1,400 PPFD at 64 inches from the ground which figures out to 4.33 feet once you account for the height of the UC modules. You think they will be too tall for the GB's?

I'm going to pull out all stops to minimize stretch and use training (mainline or Uncle Ben's topping method) to fully utilize the light available.

With so much light available, I'm going to manage light dosing (DLI) through shorter than usual photo-periods in veg. During early veg with all of the lights on, the "day length" will be about 15 hours and steadily decreasing by day until the plants are about 24 inches where I'll probably flip them. By then the day length will be down to about 13.5 hours to keep the DLI in check.

I can always lengthen the days if the plants will tolerate more light, but based on info I'm getting 50 moles/day is where the girls will tap out. All of the above was based on that assumption. We'll see once the grow is up and running.

I think that may be a little tall, but you're running quite a bit higher ppfd than I am. I honestly wonder if you're not a little overboard. I've read a few studies that seem to indicate that 1500ppfd is about the max, and that's provided all other conditions are perfect. I was really hoping you'd be up a running so we could compare. Not your fault. My system is much simpler, and I'm a die hard DIY'er. I do have plans to build a true climate room, but that's a ways off.

 

[timmur]

I think that may be a little tall, but you're running quite a bit higher ppfd than I am. I honestly wonder if you're not a little overboard. I've read a few studies that seem to indicate that 1500ppfd is about the max, and that's provided all other conditions are perfect. I was really hoping you'd be up a running so we could compare. Not your fault. My system is much simpler, and I'm a die hard DIY'er. I do have plans to build a true climate room, but that's a ways off.

Yep 1,500 PPFD is probably not viable for 18 hours, but remember that on a sunny day the PPFD is 2,000. Of course it's not that way all day, but neither will mine. I think it's all about DLI. That's why I'm not going to be delivering light for 18 hours; that dose of light is too high. My guess is that 50 will be tops when everything else is optimized, but that is not based on science. That's just an educated guess. I fully intend to find out. I will add that based on Phaeton's testing, the question is already mostly settled. Below is a PM I received from him when I asked him questions about his light testing studies.

The color meters, (blue, red, UVB) are made by Solarmeter and run about $200 USD each.
The PAR meter, also known as a quantum flux meter, is from Apogee Instruments and costs about $300. The quantum flux meter reads in 'umol' per millisecond. A mol of photons is how many hit a square meter in one second, a very large number. A umol (1/10,000 mol) per ms (1/1,000 second) is what the meter reads and rounds it off to five digits.
I am thinking is is the same number as PPFD as 1,100 is very strong light.

A subject you may wish to research if using high intensity lighting is spectrum, antenna molecules, and chloroplasts.
Red and blue light cannot get through the top layer of chloroplasts in the leaf. At higher intensities (1200+ umol) more of the energy comes from antenna molecules collecting green. At maximum total absorption a full 50% is from green's ability to penetrate through the leaf, using three or four layers of chloroplasts instead of just one.

The maximum energy a plant can use for an hour is about 1600 umol, however it cannot do this for more than about eight or nine hours. A twelve hour day needs less than 1200 and an eighteen hour day needs less than 1000. More than this and the plant droops and quits using the light.

I am remembering some of the basics from many years ago, I use the research but a lot of the details leading to my conclusions have faded over time. I remember having a difficult time with the spectrum changes the plant uses as intensity increases, it is not a straight line and at about 80% maximum light the shift to green is fairly sudden.

If you do the DLI calculations on the numbers he talks about in terms of PPFD and lit period, you get about 45-48 moles/day. I don't think he was using CO2, so he probably didn't find the max, but he came close. I'm sure this also dependent on strain as well.

I'm really wondering about the height issue you alluded to. If I had some 1 kw DE Gavitas in the room producing the same PPFD what would you say about height then?

 

[Ez Rider]

Yep 1,500 PPFD is probably not viable for 18 hours, but remember that on a sunny day the PPFD is 2,000. Of course it's not that way all day, but neither will mine. I think it's all about DLI. That's why I'm not going to be delivering light for 18 hours; that dose of light is too high. My guess is that 50 will be tops when everything else is optimized, but that is not based on science. That's just an educated guess. I fully intend to find out. I will add that based on Phaeton's testing, the question is already mostly settled. Below is a PM I received from him when I asked him questions about his light testing studies.



If you do the DLI calculations on the numbers he talks about in terms of PPFD and lit period, you get about 45-48 moles/day. I don't think he was using CO2, so he probably didn't find the max, but he came close. I'm sure this also dependent on strain as well.

I'm really wondering about the height issue you alluded to. If I had some 1 kw DE Gavitas in the room producing the same PPFD what would you say about height then?

I'll bet the stack that 1000w DE's have WAY MORE penetration than the C/G's. The Greenbeams excel at providing an extremely even plane of illumination AT THE CANOPY. This is accomplished by the unique hood design used in conjunction with reflective walls. I seriously doubt the 315's can penetrate more than 18" through the canopy. All the models use an empty room for the various planes of illumination. The main reason I want the Apogee is to figure this out. The 1000w DE's are just a brute of a light. Most everyone I talk to who uses them says you need 3-4' of headroom, and you can still easily grow 6' plants if you have the headroom. I don't have much headroom, which is the main reason the 315's appealed to me. I'd prefer to grow fewer/bigger plants, but all life is a compromise.

 

[McKush]

I built my flower room to 10' height specifically for DE technology a couple of years ago and have never regretted it. I dont have a light meter but they are powerful. Would like to know if CMH is on par with DE in the penetration dept but the studies seem to suggest DE is much stronger. CMH is a better quality of light but not more powerful. The GB is tops for even plane distribution tho and requires much less height. Pros n cons with each but they are both excellent and can address different requirements.

You dont need 4' of headroom for a DE. Ive grown within 2' without harming the plant. That was late flower with an acclimated plant tho. 2' at flip would be hilarious, good way to piss off two months of veg time if you are not a daily room checker. I dont actively move the fixture much any more during growth but keep it static at about 90" to 96". Have a 5.5 to 6' haze under the DE now but the tops are tied to the sidewalls which gives 28 to 30" from the fixture.

I couldnt raise my ceiling for the DE so i removed the floor and dug.... where there is a will...

 

[timmur]

I'll bet the stack that 1000w DE's have WAY MORE penetration than the C/G's. The Greenbeams excel at providing an extremely even plane of illumination AT THE CANOPY. This is accomplished by the unique hood design used in conjunction with reflective walls. I seriously doubt the 315's can penetrate more than 18" through the canopy. All the models use an empty room for the various planes of illumination. The main reason I want the Apogee is to figure this out. The 1000w DE's are just a brute of a light. Most everyone I talk to who uses them says you need 3-4' of headroom, and you can still easily grow 6' plants if you have the headroom. I don't have much headroom, which is the main reason the 315's appealed to me. I'd prefer to grow fewer/bigger plants, but all life is a compromise.

This seems like a conversation that has been had before! Check out this conversation between Beta Test Team and Bluerock in the thread, Gavita DE vs. CMH 630w systems: pros and cons of both?

Beta Test Team
And for a dense canopy, the vast majority of spectra wavebands penetrating (i.e. transmittance) through leaves are NIR (far red radiation) and IR, with relatively little green range radiation transmitting through leaves, and nearly all blue and red range radiation is absorbed by the leaves. Along with green range radiation having greatest reflection within PAR range (because Cannabis leaves reflect around 15%-30% of the green radiation), so some of those 'green' photons will reflect downward into the canopy, to join transmitted photons from the green, NIR and IR ranges.

bluerock
If you are growing lettuce, then canopy penetration is not an issue. In the case of multiple 24"-30" cannabis plants, it very much matters to facilitate better development of the lower flower sites. With the higher wattage bulb, the intensity at depth is going to be greater than the lower wattage bulb and it will provide said intensity over a larger area.

Beta Test Team
You're missing the point of my post to the other member, I think. That is, if PPF at the canopy is the same for two different fixtures, and all other factors are the same (e.g. wall reflectivity), the 'penetration' will be the same. This is about physics of radiation.

Area doesn't factor into 'penetration,' in the context of the posts you're referring to above.

I'm not saying you're wrong Ez, just pointing out the sides of the debate. I have the Apogee and will try to resolve this question during my grow.

 

[Ez Rider]

This seems like a conversation that has been had before! Check out this conversation between Beta Test Team and Bluerock in the thread, Gavita DE vs. CMH 630w systems: pros and cons of both?

Beta Test Team
And for a dense canopy, the vast majority of spectra wavebands penetrating (i.e. transmittance) through leaves are NIR (far red radiation) and IR, with relatively little green range radiation transmitting through leaves, and nearly all blue and red range radiation is absorbed by the leaves. Along with green range radiation having greatest reflection within PAR range (because Cannabis leaves reflect around 15%-30% of the green radiation), so some of those 'green' photons will reflect downward into the canopy, to join transmitted photons from the green, NIR and IR ranges.

bluerock
If you are growing lettuce, then canopy penetration is not an issue. In the case of multiple 24"-30" cannabis plants, it very much matters to facilitate better development of the lower flower sites. With the higher wattage bulb, the intensity at depth is going to be greater than the lower wattage bulb and it will provide said intensity over a larger area.

Beta Test Team
You're missing the point of my post to the other member, I think. That is, if PPF at the canopy is the same for two different fixtures, and all other factors are the same (e.g. wall reflectivity), the 'penetration' will be the same. This is about physics of radiation.

Area doesn't factor into 'penetration,' in the context of the posts you're referring to above.

I'm not saying you're wrong Ez, just pointing out the sides of the debate. I have the Apogee and will try to resolve this question during my grow.

IMO, it's very nature makes the C/G incapable of the same level of penetration as a DE. It's a very diffuse light pattern. It DEPENDS on reflective walls. Most other reflectors produce a very noticeable hot spot(s). Theses "hot spots" are from the light being more focused.

Say we placed my garden in a 20x20x9 room with black walls/floor/ceiling and took the tent away. Just a 4x8 of plants in a black room. Actually let's say 2 black rooms, each with a 4x8 tray of plants in the center. In one room we hang 6 C/G's, in the other room we hang 2 1000w Gavitas, all lamps fixed at 8' off the floor. We bring in 30" teens and flip. Do you seriously see the 315's competing in this scenario? Most people seem to agree that a 315cmh is roughly equal to a 600w hps. I doubt anyone's going to tell me that a 600w hps has the same penetration as a 1000w hps. I KNOW I can grow bigger plants under 1k's than I can under 600's.

The C/G's strengths are it's uniform canopy coverage when multiple units are used, coupled with the superior spectrum of the 315w cmh lamp. The very long life of the relatively inexpensive bulbs is a big plus too. At 18 months, I'll still be under the 8000hr/90% mark on my lamps.That's 6 entire cycles on 1 lamp!

 

[timmur]

IMO, it's very nature makes the C/G incapable of the same level of penetration as a DE. It's a very diffuse light pattern. It DEPENDS on reflective walls. Most other reflectors produce a very noticeable hot spot(s). Theses "hot spots" are from the light being more focused.

Agreed.

Say we placed my garden in a 20x20x9 room with black walls/floor/ceiling and took the tent away. Just a 4x8 of plants in a black room. Actually let's say 2 black rooms, each with a 4x8 tray of plants in the center. In one room we hang 6 C/G's, in the other room we hang 2 1000w Gavitas, all lamps fixed at 8' off the floor. We bring in 30" teens and flip. Do you seriously see the 315's competing in this scenario?

Nope, but the PPFD at the canopy would not be equal either. Lights and reflection need to be adjusted such that they deliver equal PPFD at the canopy. Once this has been satisfied then, according to what Beta posted, the "penetration" will be about the same.

 

[Ez Rider]

Agreed.


Nope, but the PPFD at the canopy would not be equal either. Lights and reflection need to be adjusted such that they deliver equal PPFD at the canopy. Once this has been satisfied then, according to what Beta posted, the "penetration" will be about the same.

I see what you're saying, but I'd think you see more commercial setups with 400/600w hps vs 1000w hps if it were true.

 

[timmur]

I see what you're saying, but I'd think you see more commercial setups with 400/600w hps vs 1000w hps if it were true.

I agree that you don't see more rooms built out with 400/600 watt fixtures, but my thought is the extra expense of the fixtures is an impediment. I would also say that most folks would side with you in this, so there's that as well I guess. You really can't compete with DE tech when it comes to the initial investment; they are way cheaper.

I actually remember reading about a room full of 400 watt HPS that absolutely crushed it. Many smaller fixtures, assuming an appropriate reflector, is always going to provide more uniformity of light at the canopy. GBs just take that concept to the extreme.

BTW, contractor is here and the room is going together! Pics later.

 

[Ez Rider]

I agree that you don't see more rooms built out with 400/600 watt fixtures, but my thought is the extra expense of the fixtures is an impediment. I would also say that most folks would side with you in this, so there's that as well I guess. You really can't compete with DE tech when it comes to the initial investment; they are way cheaper.

I actually remember reading about a room full of 400 watt HPS that absolutely crushed it. Many smaller fixtures, assuming an appropriate reflector, is always going to provide more uniformity of light at the canopy. GBs just take that concept to the extreme.

BTW, contractor is here and the room is going together! Pics later.

Good luck with the contractor.

I will say that the most productive room I ever personally saw was entirely 430's(24), but that guy was a mad scientist with a professional climate system and good genetics.

I'm still reading that other thread...maybe it'll change my opinion...

 

[GET MO]

Personally, I take everything out under the canopy anyway....
Guess it depends on how you grow, team no larf here!

 

[timmur]

Personally, I take everything out under the canopy anyway....
Guess it depends on how you grow, team no larf here!

In that case penetration through the canopy is not a factor!

 

[timmur]

Finally, the room is here and going together!

Finally, the room is here and going together!

Well the contractor showed up and put the room together. He didn't get the electrical or the mini-split of course. Well at least it begins.

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[Ez Rider]

Well the contractor showed up and put the room together. He didn't get the electrical or the mini-split of course. Well at least it begins.

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I was wondering if the eden was going in or outside, now I know. What made you decide on all that expense, when you've already got a room? From their website, I'd got the impression they were for mounting on an outdoor slab/pad.

The electrics and mini should go real quick. Sprout them seeds!

Is that a chiller I see sitting there? I've got 1 just like it for sale. What's the flexi-tank for? I thought the rdwc has it's own res. I just bought a flexi myself...can't believe somebody didn't come up with it sooner.

After reading that other thread, I'm now completely undecided on the penetration question. BTT makes a pretty good case...

Rock on!

 

[timmur]

Yep that is a chiller. It's a 1/2 hp unit. Long story on the room in a room, but the expense wasn't too bad; I gotta really good deal.

The asshole isn't coming back until Tuesday to finish the electric and the mini-split so I'll have to wait a bit more before I start the seeds.

BTT was always pretty sharp so I tend to trust most of what he posted. We'll see I guess.

 

[Ez Rider]

Yep that is a chiller. It's a 1/2 hp unit. Long story on the room in a room, but the expense wasn't too bad; I gotta really good deal.

The asshole isn't coming back until Tuesday to finish the electric and the mini-split so I'll have to wait a bit more before I start the seeds.

BTT was always pretty sharp so I tend to trust most of what he posted. We'll see I guess.

At least you're getting there. Did you get the mounting plates for the Apogee, or just the unit? That's going to be my next big move.

 

[timmur]

At least you're getting there. Did you get the mounting plates for the Apogee, or just the unit? That's going to be my next big move.

Just the unit. I didn't even know about the plates until you mentioned it!

 

[McKush]

Nice to see your room taking shape brother

 

[timmur]

Thanks McKush! Getting there but certainly not on the timeline I envisioned.