New kelp derived paclo

[glow]

PS mate - be a bit careful what you ask and how you frame it as I aren't hiding behind a pseudonym and the cops know who I am so if I help you grow cannabis I'm guilty of conspiracy - however as I assume we are talking about dicots (e.g. tomatoes) safe to answer (only just). Anyway let's keep her on topic. Its turning out to be an interesting thread and I like what Storm Shadow has contributed. Interesting shit and something I haven't come across before.

 

[prune]

Again though are you saying excess Cu acts in a similar manner to PBZ? I.e. reduces apical dominance?

Interesting when you consider Cu in Spinout root control, and the use of "LST" in controlling stretch and promoting side growth. Mechanical PGR?

 

[glow]

I think the bigger problem here is that the mendo avalanche works, and it looks like a pgr. I have one very experienced gardener who has run it twice, once at half the recommended dosage, did a little bit less than 1 ounce extra re plant, and once at full strength and did like 1.5 more per plant.

The fact that it works and an experienced person is telling us the copper tech does not work is possibly a red flag. Well it's a mute point for me, as quality is always the goal, but I'm always curious.

Quality is very important but if someone has come up with a safe (er) alternative to chemical PGRs for reducing apical dominance then this is a good thing and hopefully will give those who are determined to use PGRs a viable alternative. This approach does concern me a bit though because Cu is a toxic heavy metal and not something you really want to be ingesting into the lungs. I.e. (from research)... "Increase in copper level in the soil resulted in the higheruptake and accumulation of copper by the plants. Ouzounidou (1994) made similar
observations that uptake of copper increased with the increased application of copper in Alyssum montanum L. This view is also supported by Mocquot et al., (1996) and Cambrolle et al., 2011."



Plus the research is talking about an OD of Cu inducing deficiencies of other micros - its a very delicate balancing act because while at 50mg/kg-1 going over this reduces yields so say you had high Cu in your mains supply you may lose yields. They're saying it induces Fe and Zn deficiencies:

Zinc (Zn) is an integral component of many enzymes. Zinc plays a major role in protein synthesis and is involved with the carbohydrate metabolic processes. Zinc is also required for maintaining integrity of biomembranes and protecting membranes from oxidative damage from toxic oxygen radicals. Severely affected plants develop small, misshapen fruits of poor quality. This is due to poor cell division early in fruit development, and fruits not getting enough sugars from photosynthesis.

Iron (Fe) has special importance in biological redox systems involved with chlorophyll formation and protein synthesis. Iron is essential in the enzyme system in plant metabolism (photosynthesis and respiration). The enzymes involved include catalase, peroxidase, cytochrome oxidase, and other cytochromes. Fe is part of protein ferredoxin and is required in nitrate and sulfate reductions. Fe is essential in the synthesis and maintenance of chlorophyll in plants and has been strongly associated with protein metabolism.


Other than this, they haven't mentioned what this does to flavonoids and essential oils - I'd like to see more research on it but it def is interesting and offers possibilities that are safer than PBZ.

 

[theother]

Quality is very important but if someone has come up with a safe (er) alternative to chemical PGRs for reducing apical dominance then this is a good thing and hopefully will give those who are determined to use PGRs a viable alternative. This approach does concern me a bit though because Cu is a toxic heavy metal and not something you really want to be ingesting into the lungs. I.e. (from research)... "Increase in copper level in the soil resulted in the higheruptake and accumulation of copper by the plants. Ouzounidou (1994) made similar
observations that uptake of copper increased with the increased application of copper in Alyssum montanum L. This view is also supported by Mocquot et al., (1996) and Cambrolle et al., 2011."



Plus the research is talking about an OD of Cu inducing deficiencies of other micros - its a very delicate balancing act because while at 50mg/kg-1 going over this reduces yields so say you had high Cu in your mains supply you may lose yields. They're saying it induces Fe and Zn deficiencies:

Zinc (Zn) is an integral component of many enzymes. Zinc plays a major role in protein synthesis and is involved with the carbohydrate metabolic processes. Zinc is also required for maintaining integrity of biomembranes and protecting membranes from oxidative damage from toxic oxygen radicals. Severely affected plants develop small, misshapen fruits of poor quality. This is due to poor cell division early in fruit development, and fruits not getting enough sugars from photosynthesis.

Iron (Fe) has special importance in biological redox systems involved with chlorophyll formation and protein synthesis. Iron is essential in the enzyme system in plant metabolism (photosynthesis and respiration). The enzymes involved include catalase, peroxidase, cytochrome oxidase, and other cytochromes. Fe is part of protein ferredoxin and is required in nitrate and sulfate reductions. Fe is essential in the synthesis and maintenance of chlorophyll in plants and has been strongly associated with protein metabolism.


Other than this, they haven't mentioned what this does to flavonoids and essential oils - I'd like to see more research on it but it def is interesting and offers possibilities that are safer than PBZ.

Thanks for the response, so you don't really credit the kelp with limiting vertical growth and stacking nodes? I've heard of Norwegian kelp being used in this way for years, (nitrozyme). I've never used it myself so no idea if it works, but I wonder if the copper thing combined with whatever effect the kelp has create a winning combination?

 

[theother]

I'm a bit confused about the question because you mention pH Perfect which implies Advanced Nutrients pH Perfect (correct me if I'm wrong). Frankly, I tend to think that nutrient choice comes down to personal preference but I myself long ago used GH 3 Part and found it extremely good because you are able to play with the ratios in the final nutrient working solution (ppm of each ion being delivered to the plant). Most good nutrients use chelated micros so that really shouldn't be an issue. I certainly would never formulate without chelated micros. Two parts are formulated as two parts to separate certain elements that bond in solution and precipitate - so calcium and phosphorus react and precipitate - so calcium is in one bottle (generally part A as calcium nitrate) and phosphorus is in another bottle (generally derived from MKP and MAP). Basically what it comes down to is the NPK, Ca,Mg and S amounts and ratios and micro balances in a nutrient that will determine its quality. To be honest I have my concerns about pH Perfect as they (AN) haven't disclosed what they are using as the buffer. If say they were using MES - MES contains a morpholine ring and MES is deemed highly toxic by Canadian authorities. Morpholine when combined with nitrites forms N-nitrosomorpholine (C4H8N2O2), a known very potent carcinogen. Morpholine is systemic and readily available for uptake by plants

Nitrites occur in plants as part of the natural growth process. For example, the nitrate N to amino acid cycle - basically, when nitrate nitrogen (NO3–N) is provided to plants it first needs to be uptaken and translocated from the roots of the plant through the xylem. It is then absorbed by a mesophyll cell via one of the nitrate−proton symporters into the cytoplasm and reduced to nitrite (NO2) by nitrate reductase enzyme in the cytoplasm. From here the nitrite is reduced to ammonium (NH4) by nitrite reductase enzyme in the chloroplast, which is then incorporated into amino acids by the glutamine synthetase−glutamine− 2−oxoglutarate amidotransferase enzyme system, resulting in glutamine and, ultimately, other amino acids and their metabolites.

I'm not saying that pH Perfect incorporates MES but unless manufacturers list actives it safer to assume the worst rather than optimistically assume the best. Other than this, MES is shown in several pieces or research to potentially reduce yields.

Can't really advise you what to do here - I have dissected various nutrients and always analyze quality by the NPK ratios and a few other things such as Ca Mg ratio.

I'm sorry, the term ph perfect was misleading. I wasn't referring to an specifically. It sounds like my second guess was correct though and they are separating out elements that form insoluble salts. Duh I just realized the 2 parts have the micro in the mix, sorry, didn't even think of that before. So a 3 part like gh, doesn't form the insoluble salt because the micro and the others are separated.

 

[glow]

I'm sorry, the term ph perfect was misleading. I wasn't referring to an specifically. It sounds like my second guess was correct though and they are separating out elements that form insoluble salts. Duh I just realized the 2 parts have the micro in the mix, sorry, didn't even think of that before. So a 3 part like gh, doesn't form the insoluble salt because the micro and the others are separated.

Yep the real issue is sulfates, calcium and phosphorus so 2 parts and 3 parts separate elements that will form insoluble salts when combined. Once diluted in the tank this isn't an issue because of the low ppm of the potentially problematic elements. And yes all hydroponic nutrients contain micros - and I expect most of them provide micros in chelated form (certainly Iron (Fe) needs to be in chelate form). According to Ca Specialty Fertilizer regulations if they are using chelates they will be listed and then need to list the type/form of chelate.

 

[glow]

Thanks for the response, so you don't really credit the kelp with limiting vertical growth and stacking nodes? I've heard of Norwegian kelp being used in this way for years, (nitrozyme). I've never used it myself so no idea if it works, but I wonder if the copper thing combined with whatever effect the kelp has create a winning combination?

Many years ago I used Nitrozyme (know the chemist from Growth Tech actually he has a BSc but they pass him off as Dr Karl) and found it to be absolutely not to my liking - and it certainly didn't exhibit any PGR like effects. My guess is that no kelp acts like PBZ but then you'd have to look at every kelp. Norwegian kelp (e.g. Ascophyllum nodosum) is used in root stimulants (e.g. Canna Rhizotonic) so what you are talking about is auxins. Also Norwegian kelps have relatively high levels of cytokinins and levels of GA. None of these act as GA inhibitors. PBZ (C15H20ClN3O) is quite unique - you could undoubtedly synthesize it from an organic source (you can pretty much synthesize anything) but then you'd have PBZ so what's the point? Here's a link that shows the constituents of various kelps http://seaweed.ie/nutrition/index.php

Can kelp reduce stretch - I expect no kelp can do this at anywhere the level PBZ does although a high cytokinin low auxin kelp may help reduce stretch somewhat and certainly because of the cytokinins increase cell division (hence biomass). Its sort of funny because as far as I can tell these myths about kelp possibly stem from products like the Emerald Triangle PGRS. Ask yourself this question - if there were a kelp that acted like PBZ do you think Emerald Triangle would have added PBZ? (and then totally bull shitted to consumers)

 

[glow]

PS theother - kelps will possibly (likely) increase nodes because of cytokinins and simply by inducing vigorous growth and benefiting plant health. That's very different from reducing stretch. Totally different mechanisms in play.

 

[BubbaBear]

Mendocino Avalance is advertised as a flower hardener to be used the last few weeks of flower not as a stretch stopper, chlormequat chloride is the PGR I was told by a hydro store guy is the magic ingredient in it, other than that l have no proof.

The bottle says theres 0.005% copper in the form of copper sulfate.

The sketchy indicator that there might be a chemical pgr thats not on the list of ingredients is the Warning on the bottle.
WARNING: This product contains chemicals known to the state of California to cause cancer and birth defects or other reproductive harm.

Wtf do you guys think thats about?
Phosphoric acid0.15%, copper sulfate 0.005% ,ascophyllum nodosum seaweed and vitamin b1 0.01%are the only ingredients listed.
Which one the warning is about?


Ive also heard of chlomequat chloride "cc" being used as a stetch stopper though.
Glow-would you say cc is a safer alternative to paclo?

Ive hear of Ba6 Benzylaminopurine being used to stop vertical growth and initiate flower set similar to paclo, it sounds like a safe alternative.

Is there anyone with experience with ba6 ?

 

[BubbaBear]

I know a lot of companies have used elusive advertising pitches about there humates and plant and kelp extracts to hide the PGRs that are really in their products but there are real plant extracts and bio stimulates that have all sorts of stimulating effects on plants. Id bet with all the technology thats out there you can get chemical PGR effects from natural products. Id love to hear from some of the legit companies putting out these products or people that have experience with them.

 

[glow]

Mendocino Avalance is advertised as a flower hardener to be used the last few weeks of flower not as a stretch stopper, chlormequat chloride is the PGR I was told by a hydro store guy is the magic ingredient in it, other than that l have no proof.

The bottle says theres 0.005% copper in the form of copper sulfate.

The sketchy indicator that there might be a chemical pgr thats not on the list of ingredients is the Warning on the bottle.
WARNING: This product contains chemicals known to the state of California to cause cancer and birth defects or other reproductive harm.

Wtf do you guys think thats about?
Phosphoric acid0.15%, copper sulfate 0.005% ,ascophyllum nodosum seaweed and vitamin b1 0.01%are the only ingredients listed.
Which one the warning is about?


Ive also heard of chlomequat chloride "cc" being used as a stetch stopper though.
Glow-would you say cc is a safer alternative to paclo?

Ive hear of Ba6 Benzylaminopurine being used to stop vertical growth and initiate flower set similar to paclo, it sounds like a safe alternative.

Is there anyone with experience with ba6 ?

I wouldn't want to say CCC (CC) is a safer alternative to PBZ - these ingredients just aren't needed. I know that they use CCC on wheat but I'd have to look at a few things before I'd even speculate on this. The CDFA registration for Mendocino Avalanche states 0.5% Cu. The other thing is Cu is known to cause birth defects so perhaps they are talking about Cu (my guess is if the labeling is correct). Yes 6-Bap can reduce stretch but again no product/chemical is absolutely safe. Certainly safer than PBZ I expect. 6-BAP isn't as aggressive as PBZ so doesn't control plant height that well.

 

[stevewinthrop]

High levels of the heavy metal copper have been found to be associated with tumors. In California if a heavy metal is associated with tumors of any kind it is slapped with a warning label.

 

[BubbaBear]

I wouldn't want to say CCC (CC) is a safer alternative to PBZ - these ingredients just aren't needed. I know that they use CCC on wheat but I'd have to look at a few things before I'd even speculate on this. The CDFA registration for Mendocino Avalanche states 0.5% Cu. The other thing is Cu is known to cause birth defects so perhaps they are talking about Cu (my guess is if the labeling is correct). Yes 6-Bap can reduce stretch but again no product/chemical is absolutely safe. Certainly safer than PBZ I expect. 6-BAP isn't as aggressive as PBZ so doesn't control plant height that well.

Its hard to say products like that aren't needed almost all the strains l grow are lanky OGs that veg very lanky and can more than double in hight during the strech period so im always trying to keep my plants as short as possible. Im more interested in products that help control hight in veg and bloom more than a stretch stopping PGR. Have you heard of using Boron to control hight? Ive read that its what makes plants grown with Aptus FaSilitor grow more stout, not the silicic acid.

 

[glow]

Its hard to say products like that aren't needed almost all the strains l grow are lanky OGs that veg very lanky and can more than double in hight during the strech period so im always trying to keep my plants as short as possible. Im more interested in products that help control hight in veg and bloom more than a stretch stopping PGR. Have you heard of using Boron to control hight? Ive read that its what makes plants grown with Aptus FaSilitor grow more stout, not the silicic acid.

Yeah I discovered boron reduced stretch years ago after messing up in formulation. Never looked into why but def something to it. Key is - are you using blended spectrum lighting and running P at about 25ppm during stretch? Both will help immensely. As I said Cu is a toxic heavy metal so I don't know if this is such a good way to go but we are crunching the numbers now and I will definitely be running a controlled trial through a Ca based friend who can than have the produce tested for Cu accumulation and essential oils.

 

[glow]

High levels of the heavy metal copper have been found to be associated with tumors. In California if a heavy metal is associated with tumors of any kind it is slapped with a warning label.

haha but it's organic lol. Joking aside I don't like the idea of med users being exposed to more HM than is necessary. It (Cu) also will likely have an effect on the immune system.

 

[glow]

High levels of the heavy metal copper have been found to be associated with tumors. In California if a heavy metal is associated with tumors of any kind it is slapped with a warning label.

Thanks Steve - that makes sense. We dropped a bottle into the lab today and will have results in 7 days on 5 chem PGRs. To be honest, my gut tells me that these guys may have cracked it because as a large agricultural industry interest who have real chemists working for them I think they are sharp enough and ethical enough to do the right thing. Let's hope more of these players start entering the hydro industry and shove the unethical cowboys out of the game.

 

[glow]

Has anyone got the recommended usage rates (ml/L or gallon), the time of application etc? Let you know how we go with the research.

 

[glow]

Sorry to turbo post but just found the label so all good. Prob is it doesn't reduce stretch - it hardens flowers based on using it during the last 3 weeks of flower. It's going to be interesting to see though is resin production is impacted. We'll be testing for THC, CBD and CBN against a control.

 

[EclipseFour20]

Has anyone got the recommended usage rates (ml/L or gallon), the time of application etc? Let you know how we go with the research.

Avalanche? The label say 1-2ml/gallon...but in talking to the forumlator, he says rates of 5ml/gallon is what many growers use (including him and me). Adding Mendocino Honey (at half the rate of Avalanche) will give a synergistic kick as well.

Timing? About 3 weeks prior to harvest is when I start and I stop about a week before harvest. I add it to every feeding (water or nutes) and according to the foumulator, Avalanche + Mendocino Honey produces very little PPMs and can be used right up to harvest (which many do).

Yes, Avalanche is a flower hardener and does nothing for "stacking" or reducing the stretch. You might try Growmore's Biocozyme as a foliar spray--as it does reduce the stretch and increases branching/stacking. I use it during veg and for the first week or two in flower (before flower formation); rates of 5ml/gal is what I use for both root and foliar feeding.

 

[BubbaBear]

Thanks Steve - that makes sense. We dropped a bottle into the lab today and will have results in 7 days on 5 chem PGRs. To be honest, my gut tells me that these guys may have cracked it because as a large agricultural industry interest who have real chemists working for them I think they are sharp enough and ethical enough to do the right thing. Let's hope more of these players start entering the hydro industry and shove the unethical cowboys out of the game.

Thats what ive been saying all a long Grow More is a big ass agricultural industry nutrient company not some fly by night hydro company, l think they'd have more to loose.

Nevertheless I cant thank you enough for getting this stuff independently tested, I've been on the fence about using this product for quite some time, I've had a unopened bottle in my possesion for a long ass time, it will be nice to finally know if theres any PGRs in there, it showed up on the shelves of all the hydro stores after all the paclo products got pulled in cali, thanks to someone;-) Your the man Glow big props to you !