New kelp derived paclo

[Elmer Bud]

G`day Glow

Yep your book is on the shelf at my local hydro store .
I recognised your name . So I thought a little cross referencing might be in order .

" What do you think about this book ? " I asked . The Hydro Man said " Oldie but a goldie " I respect that man`s opinion . He`s never led me astray .

Thanks for sharin

EB .

 

[glow]

G`day Glow

Yep your book is on the shelf at my local hydro store .
I recognised your name . So I thought a little cross referencing might be in order .

" What do you think about this book ? " I asked . The Hydro Man said " Oldie but a goldie " I respect that man`s opinion . He`s never led me astray .

Thanks for sharin

EB .

My pleasure always and yes she is getting old now, although things haven't changed so much in hydroland and what I spoke about 12 years ago is still extremely relevant. In rewrite now with a much bigger book that goes into advanced growing science and a hell of a lot more detail on why the original book made the recommendations it did. As an idea the original IH was I believe 128 A4 pages. The new book will have a nutrient and additive section of about 140 pages alone. Cheers EB - go well.

 

[glow]

Grow More Mendo Avalanche is not Palco...it is a different type of tech being Copper based


Grow More has homeland security dropping in on them randomly to check on their supply of ammonium nitrates ... They play by the rules and don't mislabel anything...

All Palco based products suck anyways

Technically (scientifically) this makes no sense at all. Plants require minute amounts of copper - go over this level even marginally and toxicity will occur. Many mains water supplies contain enough copper to meet the plants requirements. Some contain too much copper and toxicity results.

 

[Storm Shadow]

https://dipot.ulb.ac.be/dspace/bitstream/2013/98776/1/Response%20to%20copper%20excess%20in%20Arabidopsis%20thaliana.pdf

Response to copper excess in​

​

​

​

[FONT=AdvOTb92eb7df.I][FONT=AdvOTb92eb7df.I]Arabidopsis thaliana[/FONT][/FONT]: Impact on the root system architecture, hormone distribution, lignin accumulation and mineral pro[FONT=AdvOT863180fb+fb][FONT=AdvOT863180fb+fb]fi[/FONT][/FONT]le
​

 

[EclipseFour20]

https://dipot.ulb.ac.be/dspace/bitstream/2013/98776/1/Response%20to%20copper%20excess%20in%20Arabidopsis%20thaliana.pdf

Response to copper excess in​

​

​

​

[FONT=AdvOTb92eb7df.I][FONT=AdvOTb92eb7df.I]Arabidopsis thaliana[/FONT][/FONT]: Impact on the root system architecture, hormone distribution, lignin accumulation and mineral pro[FONT=AdvOT863180fb+fb][FONT=AdvOT863180fb+fb]fi[/FONT][/FONT]le
​

Beware of malware on that site. No bueno!

 

[glow]

https://dipot.ulb.ac.be/dspace/bitstream/2013/98776/1/Response%20to%20copper%20excess%20in%20Arabidopsis%20thaliana.pdf

Response to copper excess in​

​

​

​

[FONT=AdvOTb92eb7df.I][FONT=AdvOTb92eb7df.I]Arabidopsis thaliana[/FONT][/FONT]: Impact on the root system architecture, hormone distribution, lignin accumulation and mineral pro[FONT=AdvOT863180fb+fb][FONT=AdvOT863180fb+fb]fi[/FONT][/FONT]le
​

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20542443

Yeah nothing impressive there. Have a friend getting me a full copy of the paper to see if I've missed something in the synopsis but overdose of copper = not good.

I.e. "Growth, in particular reorganization of the root system architecture, mineral homeostasis and root hormone distribution were studied in Arabidopsis thaliana upon copper excess. Five-week-old Arabidopsis plants growing in hydroponics were exposed to different Cu(2+) concentrations (up to 5 muM). Root biomass was more severely inhibited than shoot biomass and Cu was mainly retained in roots. Cu(2+) excess also induced important changes in the ionome. In roots, Mg, Ca, Fe and Zn concentrations increased, whereas K and S decreased. Shoot K, Ca, P, and Mn concentrations decreased upon Cu(2+) exposure."

K is a 'quality nutrient' which influences flavonoid and essential oil production so less uptake of K and tissue accumulation of K equals lower quality end product. Other than this large healthy roots equal large healthy flowers so by reducing root growth theoretically will impact on the flower biomass. Strange paper to cite - have you got anything more relevant to show how overdosing a plant on Cu acts like a PGR? My experience has always been that if you overdose a cannabis plant on any microelement (Cu included) the outcome isn't good.

BTW mate - homeland security have nothing to do with enforcing agricultural codes. They are there to ensure that the ammonium nitrate (and possibly potassium nitrate) is not being back doored to terrorists.

 

[glow]

Beware of malware on that site. No bueno!

Thanks for the tip - I'll see if I can get a full copy of the paper elsewhere.

 

[glow]

Storm Shadow - something you may find interesting re Cu excess (BTW Cu is a heavy metal and as such definitely not something you want accumulating in the shoots of plants more so than normal)

"Key Results Cu2+ at a concentration of 50 µm resulted in a large reduction in cotyledon area and hypocotyl and primary root lengths, accompanied by an increase in auxin levels."

Note increase in auxin levels. Not desirable in flowing plants as it increases stretch, promotes seed production and fluffy buds See http://aob.oxfordjournals.org/content/108/3/449.full (safe link)

Basically, if they are claiming copper is the secret ingredient I say BS to that. Perhaps they're using rare earth elements though.....

 

[glow]

Sorry bout the typo - in a hurry to go out - "Not desirable in flowering plants"

 

[Storm Shadow]

glow.... I don't work for Grow More...my good friend is the main chemist (owner) right hand man...this is information being passed down from him...

Grow More is one of the largest fertilizer manufactures in the world..

Mendo Avalanche list Cu Copper 0.05% and Phosphate 0.15%... also vitamin B-1

I never said Homeland security is checking on them for what they put in the plants...I just made a point they are such a large company ..they have the feds checking in on them...

Avalanche has been tested over and over for Palco and nada to be found..is it possible your understanding of chemistry isn't as good as the chemist owner of Grow More?

 

[theother]

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20542443

Yeah nothing impressive there. Have a friend getting me a full copy of the paper to see if I've missed something in the synopsis but overdose of copper = not good.

I.e. "Growth, in particular reorganization of the root system architecture, mineral homeostasis and root hormone distribution were studied in Arabidopsis thaliana upon copper excess. Five-week-old Arabidopsis plants growing in hydroponics were exposed to different Cu(2+) concentrations (up to 5 muM). Root biomass was more severely inhibited than shoot biomass and Cu was mainly retained in roots. Cu(2+) excess also induced important changes in the ionome. In roots, Mg, Ca, Fe and Zn concentrations increased, whereas K and S decreased. Shoot K, Ca, P, and Mn concentrations decreased upon Cu(2+) exposure."

K is a 'quality nutrient' which influences flavonoid and essential oil production so less uptake of K and tissue accumulation of K equals lower quality end product. Other than this large healthy roots equal large healthy flowers so by reducing root growth theoretically will impact on the flower biomass. Strange paper to cite - have you got anything more relevant to show how overdosing a plant on Cu acts like a PGR? My experience has always been that if you overdose a cannabis plant on any microelement (Cu included) the outcome isn't good.

BTW mate - homeland security have nothing to do with enforcing agricultural codes. They are there to ensure that the ammonium nitrate (and possibly potassium nitrate) is not being back doored to terrorists.

I think the bigger problem here is that the mendo avalanche works, and it looks like a pgr. I have one very experienced gardener who has run it twice, once at half the recommended dosage, did a little bit less than 1 ounce extra re plant, and once at full strength and did like 1.5 more per plant.

The fact that it works and an experienced person is telling us the copper tech does not work is possibly a red flag. Well it's a mute point for me, as quality is always the goal, but I'm always curious.

 

[theother]

Sorry glow wanted to pm, you but you haven't reached 50 yet (have a feeling you'll get there soon. Hate to muck up this thread as it seems like it might be going somewhere.

My question was on a two part ab style nutrient. I have not enjoyed them as they tend to have a stable ratio shifted by boosters but I can see that there is a definite advantage to two part chelate tech. I was wondering if you could explain this to me. So one bottle has acid based npk and one has base npk and when they combine they are ph perfect? Or does the second bottle actually bond to the first and form a readily available chelate? I have been loving gh 3 part off and on for years, would I be better off finding a nute that is a 2 part bloom and a 2 part veg? I am a big fan of not introducing insoluble salts to my root zone if I can help it. If the 2 part is clutch, can you recommend one?

 

[Storm Shadow]

http://journal-phytology.com/index.php/phyto/article/viewFile/6391/3246​

This article states the complete opposite of what Glow is saying ​

Copper works ...its all about how u apply it...​

The plant samples were analysed 45 days after sowing. The results​

indicated that low level of copper concentrations (50 mg kg​

​

​

​

-1) showed a significant increase in the overall growth, dry matter yield and nutrient content, while higher​

concentrations (100-250 mg kg​

​

​

​

-1) decreased the growth, dry matter production and nutrient content of greengram
​

​

​

​

​

 

[Sylvester1]

While I'm at it, Tria from bees wax, fact or myth?

Triacontanol is not found in beeswax. But it does contain myricin. If treated correctly, myricin will yield triacontanol. But there is no free triacontanol in beeswax.

 

[glow]

glow.... I don't work for Grow More...my good friend is the main chemist (owner) right hand man...this is information being passed down from him...

Grow More is one of the largest fertilizer manufactures in the world..

Mendo Avalanche list Cu Copper 0.05% and Phosphate 0.15%... also vitamin B-1

I never said Homeland security is checking on them for what they put in the plants...I just made a point they are such a large company ..they have the feds checking in on them...

Avalanche has been tested over and over for Palco and nada to be found..is it possible your understanding of chemistry isn't as good as the chemist owner of Grow More?

Hey mate not implying that you do work for Grow More. Nor am I absolutely saying that their product contains a chem PGR (haven't used it so couldn't tell you - chem PGRs stand out like dogs balls

Re - "is it possible your understanding of chemistry isn't as good as the chemist owner of Grow More?" It's not a pissing contest as to who understands more about chemistry - for instance, just had a PhD associate say highly unlikely re Cu acting similarly to PBZ and I can assure you this guy knows way more about plant physiology and nutrient chemistry than anyone who works in the hydro industry. Let's face it, if you're at the top of your game it is highly unlikely you'd waste your time developing nutrients for growing weed. 0.05% Cu and 0.15% P - there's nothing in it pal Used at 4ml/L that would give you 6ppm of P and 2ppm of Cu. Either way I'm still waiting to see some credible research that supports overdosing a plant with Cu has positive outcomes in budset.

 

[Storm Shadow]

The main chemist at Grow More is no "Hydro Guy" He's a PHD with multiple degrees...

They are one of the largest fertilizer manufactures in the WORLD ...

They are located right next to trains so they can load tons and tons of fertilizer to be exported worldwide... a company that's almost 100 years old in America ...that's saying a lot


Do some homework Mate

 

[glow]

http://journal-phytology.com/index.php/phyto/article/viewFile/6391/3246​

This article states the complete opposite of what Glow is saying ​

Copper works ...its all about how u apply it...​

The plant samples were analysed 45 days after sowing. The results​

indicated that low level of copper concentrations (50 mg kg​

​

​

​

-1) showed a significant increase in the overall growth, dry matter yield and nutrient content, while higher​

concentrations (100-250 mg kg​

​

​

​

-1) decreased the growth, dry matter production and nutrient content of greengram
​

​

​

​

​

Actually Storm Shadow - now that paper is interesting and does support what you're saying. Will give it a hit on cannabis in a controlled trial to see what occurs. Again though are you saying excess Cu acts in a similar manner to PBZ? I.e. reduces apical dominance? Seems like a dicey way to do things because how much Cu is in the nutrient and how much in the water supply and all combined how much Cu? When do you start using it and for how long at what dilution ratio? One way to check these things and that is to formulate yourself and run side by sides.

 

[glow]

The main chemist at Grow More is no "Hydro Guy" He's a PHD with multiple degrees...

They are one of the largest fertilizer manufactures in the WORLD ...

They are located right next to trains so they can load tons and tons of fertilizer to be exported worldwide... a company that's almost 100 years old in America ...that's saying a lot


Do some homework Mate

I do plenty of homework mate lol - never heard of them but they definitely look like pros having had a quick look at their site.

 

[glow]

PS - one thing I like about the legalization of med is that it is bringing more pros into the game (people who actually do have PhDs rather than cowboys who claim they have PhDs working for them) which will hopefully bring down prices and bring about a better set of ethics.

 

[glow]

Sorry glow wanted to pm, you but you haven't reached 50 yet (have a feeling you'll get there soon. Hate to muck up this thread as it seems like it might be going somewhere.

My question was on a two part ab style nutrient. I have not enjoyed them as they tend to have a stable ratio shifted by boosters but I can see that there is a definite advantage to two part chelate tech. I was wondering if you could explain this to me. So one bottle has acid based npk and one has base npk and when they combine they are ph perfect? Or does the second bottle actually bond to the first and form a readily available chelate? I have been loving gh 3 part off and on for years, would I be better off finding a nute that is a 2 part bloom and a 2 part veg? I am a big fan of not introducing insoluble salts to my root zone if I can help it. If the 2 part is clutch, can you recommend one?

I'm a bit confused about the question because you mention pH Perfect which implies Advanced Nutrients pH Perfect (correct me if I'm wrong). Frankly, I tend to think that nutrient choice comes down to personal preference but I myself long ago used GH 3 Part and found it extremely good because you are able to play with the ratios in the final nutrient working solution (ppm of each ion being delivered to the plant). Most good nutrients use chelated micros so that really shouldn't be an issue. I certainly would never formulate without chelated micros. Two parts are formulated as two parts to separate certain elements that bond in solution and precipitate - so calcium and phosphorus react and precipitate - so calcium is in one bottle (generally part A as calcium nitrate) and phosphorus is in another bottle (generally derived from MKP and MAP). Basically what it comes down to is the NPK, Ca,Mg and S amounts and ratios and micro balances in a nutrient that will determine its quality. To be honest I have my concerns about pH Perfect as they (AN) haven't disclosed what they are using as the buffer. If say they were using MES - MES contains a morpholine ring and MES is deemed highly toxic by Canadian authorities. Morpholine when combined with nitrites forms N-nitrosomorpholine (C4H8N2O2), a known very potent carcinogen. Morpholine is systemic and readily available for uptake by plants

Nitrites occur in plants as part of the natural growth process. For example, the nitrate N to amino acid cycle - basically, when nitrate nitrogen (NO3–N) is provided to plants it first needs to be uptaken and translocated from the roots of the plant through the xylem. It is then absorbed by a mesophyll cell via one of the nitrate−proton symporters into the cytoplasm and reduced to nitrite (NO2) by nitrate reductase enzyme in the cytoplasm. From here the nitrite is reduced to ammonium (NH4) by nitrite reductase enzyme in the chloroplast, which is then incorporated into amino acids by the glutamine synthetase−glutamine− 2−oxoglutarate amidotransferase enzyme system, resulting in glutamine and, ultimately, other amino acids and their metabolites.

I'm not saying that pH Perfect incorporates MES but unless manufacturers list actives it safer to assume the worst rather than optimistically assume the best. Other than this, MES is shown in several pieces or research to potentially reduce yields.

Can't really advise you what to do here - I have dissected various nutrients and always analyze quality by the NPK ratios and a few other things such as Ca Mg ratio.