Vegan Organics with Professor Matt Rize

[simos]

Quite the read, fellas...

The pissing contest really dragged on there for a while, what with a few of you knowledgeable guys feeling like you had to demonstrate your authoritative microbiological understanding... I slogged through, and even managed to learn a few very interesting/helpful facts. Thank you all for sharing!

@ Matt - I agree with the ideological foundation and rationales supporting "plant-based organics" and try to use as few animal products as possible in my regimen, however the attitude with which you've presented your system has been off-putting at times.

I think it's high time you provided a detailed breakdown of your system altogether. By that I mean at the very least your detailed feed/additive schedule, and some comprehensive photographic documentation of your own (the pics on KK's website are nice, but hardly prove anything).

With all the information about your "veganic" system laid out plainly for all to see, it would be possible to easily replicate. If it's yielding unheard of pound prices for you, I'm sure there would be people here eager to give it a trial run or two.

I'll take your word that you're not schilling for BioCanna, but my personal take on all this is that "veganics" or "vegan organics" is just a marketing ploy allowing you to differentiate your product from that of other organic growers.

If I was going to do a "straight from the bottle" organic regimen, it would be based on the EARTH JUICE line, hands down. In the past I've experimented with many nute lines (organic and far from it) including AN, BioCanna, FF, Humboldt, H&G, General Organics, and Bio Bizz. For me EJ outperformed them all, plus it's the most organic of the bunch and it comes at a small fraction of the price.

That said, I'm in 110% agreement with the organic gurus in this forum that it's far superior to build your own custom medium using locally sourced organic ingredients, and that superior organic nutes can be concocted at a fraction of the bottled price if you know what you're doing.

Break it down for us, if you will. Without the standard explanation and documentation, I'm not really sure what the point of this thread was. You can't have been so naive as to think IC wasn't already on-board with plant-based organics and you were introducing any revolutionary ideas other than your specific method of doing things. Results speak for themselves, whether or not they're actually obtained "veganically"

 

[Carl Carlson]

Below is a good article from Greenhouse Grower about P and plant growth. It covers what I wrote about in more detail, such as Fe making soluble P anions insoluble (not bio-available to plant roots) and low movement of insoluble P anions within soil solution.

Thanks I hadn't seen this one.

When there is less phosphorus, the plant restricts its shoot growth more than root growth. Plants divert more of their resources to the roots, so roots can grow farther to find phosphorus. If you want a higher root-to-shoot ratio, you want to provide lower phosphorus or nitrogen. Low phosphorus also stimulates root hairs, which absorb much of the nutrients and water.

very interesting

Low Phosphorus Makes Transplants Compact

Plant stem elongation is sensitive to phosphorus. Therefore, a good way to control stem elongation is controlling phosphorus levels.

High levels of phosphorus make transplants too tall and not easy to manage. An effect of slight phosphorus deficiency is shorter stems. We can use this effect for height control of plants by lowering the levels of phosphorus and producing plants whose stems or internodes are shorter.

SoG growers take note!

For anyone who wants to read the thread I wrote "Tissue nutrient analysis of Cannabis = rethinking Lucas and N-P-K-Mg-Ca-S" I uploaded here: (link) and the password to decrypt the file is "references" (without quotes). The file host is in Russia and doesn't require Javascript, etc., thus it's more anonymous IP wise than a U.S.file host.

got it thanks.

 

[Matt Rize]

Mixed messages here from the community

Mixed messages here from the community

The pissing contest really dragged on there for a while, what with a few of you knowledgeable guys feeling like you had to demonstrate your authoritative microbiological understanding...

LOL, I enjoyed that. You could tell I did not read it all right away.

I think it's high time you provided a detailed breakdown of your system altogether.

That was the plan, but I've been asked specifically to not talk about it...

If I was going to do a "straight from the bottle" organic regimen, it would be based on the EARTH JUICE line, hands down. In the past I've experimented with many nute lines (organic and far from it) including AN, BioCanna, FF, Humboldt, H&G, General Organics, and Bio Bizz. For me EJ outperformed them all, plus it's the most organic of the bunch and it comes at a small fraction of the price.

Great feedback, sincere thanks.

You can't have been so naive as to think IC wasn't already on-board with plant-based organics

I suppose I am that naive. Rollitup had no idea, you guys ARE WAY BEYOND THEM. None-the-less that does not excuse the flaming from mistachump or whatever his name was. I am not the "turn the other cheek" type.

I am officially and openly waiting for permission from god (aka microbeman) to start talking about how I grow. He has asked me to not... so I've been sitting back reading/responding for 20 pages. god/spurr/coot have already contributed more than I had hoped. And almost 4000 views in a week... did not see that coming either.

 

[simos]

Rollitup had no idea, you guys ARE WAY BEYOND THEM.

Claro que si. I spent a little time on RIU when I was a noob years ago, and even then I could tell the few knowledgeable folk were heavily outnumbered by a gaggle of semi-illiterate dummies. This is the premier spot for passionate, educated MJ discourse on the net - stay a while and I'm sure you'll learn a few useful things. I know I do pretty much every time I browse the forums

 

[MissGreenDreamz]

That brings us to my personal favorite nute company in the world, BioCanna. Who else has the balls to directly label the product this way? I've never tested their chemy lines but have read great reviews.

Well first of all, why no pics again...? because you couldn't figure it out? Why, Professor, your very first post on the forum included some pics. What up? No one wants excuses, just walk the walk's all...

anyway, the quote above makes me think a little... People who are tuned in and conscientious enough in the first place to hold an interest or appreciation for growing and/or enjoying this sort of quality medicine, (especially those suffering health wise and in need of a pure organic food-grade standard medicine), might be concerned about the quality of this particular line. BioCanna has a chemy line, as you stated. Well unless they have a separate facility for their "non-chemy" line then how could you ever promise that there is no cross-contamination? Especially when you're selling to purists! I'm a label reading mom, and know about facilities and tainted product.

Example: Our son has a nut allergy. If we buy products that were produced on the same line, even if it has been cleaned and an entirely different product is turned out on that equipment, our son is in serious jeopardy of a health emergency. When there is no room for error you don't mess around. Would somebody dying of cancer chance something that they can't research on line? What are the measures taken to ensure its purity, if any?

I think (know) that many Vegans would be very upset if you used a "meat" pan to cook for them, even if washed, for example.

So... you've gotten good vibes as well as many challenges to your claims. Obviously your skills and knowledge are welcome here...but if you're going to get all up on these guys and try selling "veganics" as something superior to what THESE guys are doing, I think you should look at it as a class room and not a podium, prof. Good Luck...
p.s. you're smokin' scissor hash all day aren't ya! Because there are a lot of contradictions to what you're going with here, and no I'm not going to go back and quote semantics bs... this is a quality controlled atmosphere, carry on.
With Love,
MissGreenDreamz, M.Ed.

 

[guest2012y]

That's my girl^^^^ and believe me she has a mind of her own!

 

[Clackamas Coot]

I have to tell you that I'm somewhat disappointed after looking at the OU web site. Seems kinda cheesy all in all.

One of the problems is one that Matt Rize mentioned in passing when discussing the difficult challenge of trimming buds using Fiskars. There's the problem from my perspective. I mean if you're selling elbows of the dankiest dank or the kushiest kush then why on earth would a person choose Fiskars?

Best to go with the professional bonsai tools from Japan - Masakuni and a full set will run you about $3,500.00 unless you go for the blackened steel set and you could easily add another $1,500.00

With these tools now you can really do some serious trimming! In the future when I buy a pound for $4,000.00+ I'll be asking how they did their trimming and what tools they used.

It only seems right!

CC

 

[Matt Rize]

Now speaking as a chef who uses only Japanese steel.....

Now speaking as a chef who uses only Japanese steel.....

Best to go with the professional bonsai tools from Japan - Masakuni and a full set will run you about $3,500.00 unless you go for the blackened steel set and you could easily add another $1,500.00

With these tools now you can really do some serious trimming! In the future when I buy a pound for $4,000.00+ I'll be asking how they did their trimming and what tools they used.
It only seems right!

The trimming that I speak of is not for myself, it is all in the post. I work on a crew, mostly for the social (hot women) aspect, but also to make money with my free time while expanding my circle. And three grand for scissors is... I'll withhold comment. I applaud you for your dedication to the art. And refuse to get into the meaning of "right"

 

[guest2012y]

I have used every scissor known to the common man except something on that level CC....Fuc* Fiskars...those suck..best ones ever are plain old fashioned barber scissors with the thumb/finger loop thingy. I can trim up to 5 lbs myself in about 6 hours. Not a sloppy job either.....I'd lay $1000 down that I can rip through a lb. faster and more accurately trimmed than the average bear. You know..kinda' like those hot dog eating contests. As for price...Yeah I can get 4 if I want,if I was purely in it for the $$$...but I treat my family like family and my patients like family.

 

[Clackamas Coot]

Matt Rize

I hail from Laguna Beach so my general disdain for the Bay Area is probably showing here but isn't Oakland basically just a carbon copy of Pacoima next to a large body of water?

Same with Arcata and Coalinga.

CC

 

[guest2012y]

Hey now you old son of a bitch..I was born in Pacoima. EDIT: Used to buy dime bags off 5 year old mexican kids with my lunch $$$$ there. Visited a rather large op in Oakland about ten years ago....10 floors and every room filled. Cool thing was this guy was doing it in EVERY style known at the time. Rooms filled with dirt/soil,rooms filled with pots,rooms filled with hydro,etc,etc,etc,............Gave the cat one of my works in progress. Don't know what became of it.

 

[Matt Rize]

Couple picts of the current ladies

Couple picts of the current ladies

First picture is a close up of a BLACKBERRY KUSH cutting. The autoflower characteristic is obvious.

Second picture is of the babies, two weeks in. The smaller pot up front is a Blue Cheese that I was gifted with the BBK. Anyone want it?

Third picture is of the working part of my room, just for shits and giggles.

Details: These clones came to me and had effing "super" spider mites. I handled that in a less than ideal way*, and there has been no signs of mite for over two weeks now. I'm doing a test with my media this time, and using a mix of BTPlus, CocoNot, Sunshine #4, and JustRight Xtra. I never grow the exact same twice... maybe not the best strategy in some minds.

I've given them a healthy inoculation with:
EWC tea from the ranch
root web from bountea
mayan microzyme
myco madness
& great white.
Not all together... of course.

When I water the young ladies I make sure I've applied all of these inoculants on the leaves (phyllosphere) and soil (actually soil-less IMO). I'm no expert on phyllosphere microflora... and would love to be taken to school on Cannabis specific data relating to this idea.

http://www.pnas.org/content/98/7/3889.long <-- has the basics.

"All plant species in natural habitats have associated epiphytic microflora comprising the so-called phyllosphere (1, 2). The composition and quantity of nutrients, including carbohydrates, organic acids, and amino acids that support the growth of epiphytic bacteria, are affected by the plant species, leaf age, leaf physiological status, and the presence of tissue damage (3). Similarly, host plants, leaf age, leaf position, physical environmental condition, and availability of immigrant inoculum have also been suggested to be involved in determining species of microbes in the phyllosphere (4–7).

There has been much interest in life forms that inhabit extreme environments such as the phyllosphere. With the repeated, rapid alteration of environmental conditions occurring on leaf surfaces, the phyllosphere has been recognized as a hostile environment to bacteria (8). Leaf surfaces are often dry and temperatures can reach 40–55°C under intense sunlight. During the night, however, leaves are frequently wet with dew and at relatively cool temperatures (5–10°C). Strong UV radiation during the day and sparse nutritional (oligotrophic) conditions also contribute to stressful conditions in the phyllosphere (8). More than 85 different species of microorganisms in 37 genera have been reported in the phyllospheres of rye, olive, sugar beet, and wheat, all by culture-based methods (8–10). Most of these bacteria establish large populations with no apparent effect on the plant, but a few of them can infect the leaves and cause disease (1)."

Post edit: forgot to mention that the only reason they are in big pots already is to work with the autoflower tendency of this strain. the blue cheez is only in a half gallon of soil-less dirt

And the reason I do this spraying microbes is that I don't spray anything in my sealed room...no oil, no nothing other than the microbes. This has worked with great success in keeping PM away, which is my only issue after the clones have been cleaned-up quarantined.

post post edit: it seems something weird is going on with the pictures i uploaded. i asked how to post them big like y'all do.

 

[spurr]

I like the little sowing scissors with the spring in handle for manicuring, it sure makes manicuring easier with that spring, not having to work as hard opening the scissors is nice and for me means much less soar/tired hands! And they are really sharp and small point at ends so one can really give a fine manicure.

For initial trimming bigger scissors work well for me, like what Capt.Cheeze1 posted. Damn CC, you sure know what quality scissors means! I had no idea about what you described, thanks

 

[Clackamas Coot]

Matt Rize

It's a relatively new product but Sun Gro Horticulture now has an organic Sunshine Mix #4 and comes in a tan color bale vs. the black bales of their conventional product line.

Same price per c.f. at reputable wholesalers, i.e. < $27.00 for the 3.8 c.f. compressed bales.

CC

 

[spurr]

^^ I have used that media for growing before, and tested that media for porosity, good stuff for commercial mix, fo sho'.

 

[Clackamas Coot]

Their packing plant is about 10 miles from our home. About 25 acres of their various product lines including Black Gold - the previous 'gotta have' potting soil for cannabis growers in the days before Ocean Forest.

They also do a lot of co-packing and many of the potting soil products that are discussed on cannabis boards about this one being better than that one are pretty funny. Especially if you've ever watched a soil mixing machine do it's thing.

Pin-point proportioning? Wee!

CC

 

[guest2012y]

Few more for good measure....

The One

 

[guest2012y]

First picture is a close up of a BLACKBERRY KUSH cutting. The autoflower characteristic is obvious.

Second picture is of the babies, two weeks in. The smaller pot up front is a Blue Cheese that I was gifted with the BBK. Anyone want it?

Third picture is of the working part of my room, just for shits and giggles.

post post edit: it seems something weird is going on with the pictures i uploaded. i asked how to post them big like y'all do. Attached Thumbnails

Edited this quote up per Matt's wishes. They look sad...like veganics is puttin' a hurt on on those girls.
Shutter' down Matt............they are a hurtin' compared to my garden. I'll remain open to the possibility that they will improve,but will they?

 

[Matt Rize]

The Bay

The Bay

Matt Rize

I hail from Laguna Beach so my general disdain for the Bay Area is probably showing here but isn't Oakland basically just a carbon copy of Pacoima next to a large body of water?

Same with Arcata and Coalinga.

CC

Oakland sucks. Aracta is lame. Don't even know where Coalinga is.

I'm in Sonoma Co.

Close enough to take advantage of the bay, but better in many aspects of life. The local organic food here is amazing all year.

Post edit: capt, that was so not needed. at least don't quote the whole thing if you have nothing to contribute. Your signature is not a contribution

 

[Matt Rize]

what flavor of haterade was he drinking

what flavor of haterade was he drinking

Edited this quote up per Matt's wishes. They look sad...like veganics is puttin' a hurt on on those girls.
Shutter' down Matt............they are a hurtin' compared to my garden. I'll remain open to the possibility that they will improve,but will they?

Such a lame post. The baby picture was the day I got them, not vegan at that point. No autoflower comments...?

The second picture is after two weeks of serious treatment to get rid of mites. Considering... they look decent. You see how the leaves point up? that is good... and the fact that I put babies into 5 gallon buckets, and then did my treatment shows my experience and confidence in my abilities. I would argue that my girls point up more than yours, but that would be as lame as the 'original' post to which I am responding. I do have concerns about this round, as I've already overfed too much, should have not used the food on top of the tea. And the real concern is that the strain is dead, the breeder let it go because it has autoflowered. BUT I have kept it in veg.