Reversed Backcrossing:)

[englishrick]

I say go for it Rick, I don't think what your thinking of doing has really been done before, or at least I havn't heard of this idea before.

I think it would be a great test, trying different things is a great Idea, not following the norm or the accepted is how we find out new killer techniques or methods or strains, experimenting is great.

Keep pushing that envelope Rick, it may just take us somwhere where no one's been...........

Im pulling up a seat for this, whether it works or not, great idea to try different things out, ya never know........

Keep up the good work Rick, Im glad to hear that your gonna go ahead with this, regardless of what other people think.

Danny

if capt carrys on ,,,,he will be the first,,,,,,,,,good on him


im buzzin,,,but gutted,, i was not the 1st

 

[englishrick]

im buying them ...........[FIRE x SFV] x Fire.......i dont give a f**k how mutch you want capt,,,,,

flipin geneius

 

[MJMAVEN]

Capt. is using males for all his crosses. He has a male SFV OGK from (I think) the BX1 and is looking for new males in his Fire x SFV OGK cross.

 

[BENJI]

I say go for it Rick, I don't think what your thinking of doing has really been done before, or at least I havn't heard of this idea before.

I think it would be a great test, trying different things is a great Idea, not following the norm or the accepted is how we find out new killer techniques or methods or strains, experimenting is great.

Keep pushing that envelope Rick, it may just take us somwhere where no one's been...........

Im pulling up a seat for this, whether it works or not, great idea to try different things out, ya never know........

Keep up the good work Rick, Im glad to hear that your gonna go ahead with this, regardless of what other people think.

Danny

Cool post Danny...

 

[englishrick]

Capt. is using males for all his crosses. He has a male SFV OGK from (I think) the BX1 and is looking for new males in his Fire x SFV OGK cross.

i didnt notice it first,,,but have a goood look,,,,,,,,,check out the bit ive put in bold "inside capt`s post",,,,,,that looks like a "Reverced Backcross" to me

am i wrong Capt?

And then there was 5...

Well what I mean by this is I'm putting a lot on the back burner(i.e. back under 24 hours of light)and only plan to concentrate on 5 hybrids right now...When I am able to stock the Boutique with these 5 I will move on to some of the other stuff...
I've been putting in major time and I'm seeing the light in consolidating my venture into something much more manageable..
All the pollinations already done will be at seedbay when ready but for now most will be one and done hybrids ...

Here is a list of the 5:

ChemD X OGK(SFV)
ECSD X OGK(SFV)
White X OGK(SFV)
(Fire X OGK(SFV))X Fire(limited release of 100 or less packs per)
ChemD X Fire Kush

The males above are subject to change to another OGK male if proven to give superior offspring....With all the SFV X Fire seedlings and the last of the BX1 seeds growing I am bound to find some strong new canidates for the male side of these hybrids...The male above stinks to high heaven and looks like the SFV cut in veg..Offspring are killer but there is always a stronger plant to be found through the planting of more seeds...


Growing out seed is one of the main reasons for conslidating my work area to allow for more seed grows...Will be looking through fresh Neville's Haze very soon and hope to find something special...Fingers crossed..

Many outdoor sativas will be grown this season as well and will post pics as the outdoor grows progress...

Take care all.................................CC

 

[GMT]

Hi Rick, if the way it is written is correct, female-male, then it looks like a female fire crossed to a male OGK the offspring then crossed to a male Fire, though I believe OGK is female clone only, so I think you believing it was a reversed female used in the cross is the correct interpretation of what was written, though I would imagine it is written incorrectly.

 

[lordbudly]

nah its a normal bx, its his male from whichever bx of ogkush (sfv) crossed to his cut of ogkush (fire), and then he backcrossed a male from the male (sfv) x female (fire) to his fire cut

 

[kopite]

I believe Sam has done quite a bit of this type of breeding (selfing) and has indeed at least partially reached these goals you speak of. That is to say, I believe he has bred homozygous lines regarding cannabinoid profile via the selfing route, but I could be wrong.

I believe he stated by S3 the plants were v weak....

"Through Revercing, i hope to develop homozygote cannabis seeds,,,,,,,, hopeully i will be able get both sets of chromosomes identical,,, and the traits i want, WILL BREED TRUE!!!.......

Naturally you will get more Homozygenous plants thru selfing, however, evidence suggests that inbreeding depression is caused mainly by the expression of partially recessive deleterious alleles in the homozygous state.....

With regards to Cheese many believe it to be ill and therefore outcrossing is good for it giving it more vigor.... I presume you have stress tested the plant.....


I believe you would need extreme numbers to carry this out anyway...

another negative point is you often will get sterile plants this way.....

What is the overall aim of this project ? just to get cheese fem seeds ????

I don't think that the best way to achieve homozygosity is by back crossing, selfing works better if you have large enough plant numbers in the trials as well as a lab to test the genes for Homogeneity. And maybe parallel lines to combine at the end of the work to try and restore some vigor. If the parallel lines are different varieties then restoring vigor is easy, if they are the same line but just different female clones, I suspect they will not restore much vigor. But I have not done it.

-SamS

the thread below has some v good points in it...

http://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=98932&page=2

also possibly the thread that got you going ER

Kopite

 

[Colina]

Naturally less fitness accompanies the move towards homozygosity during all inbreeding programs regarding most outcrossing plants - yin and yang, both are a given. One may delay inbreeding depression by using less intense forms of inbreeding, but very likely be simultaneously delaying the move towards homozygosity along with it. Selfing to the point of homozygosity coupled with crossing to others from different lines is standard in breeding of outcrossing plants and has been for quite a while.

 

[englishrick]

Hi Rick, if the way it is written is correct, female-male, then it looks like a female fire crossed to a male OGK the offspring then crossed to a male Fire, though I believe OGK is female clone only, so I think you believing it was a reversed female used in the cross is the correct interpretation of what was written, though I would imagine it is written incorrectly.

i know man....

it does look like a "Reverced Backcross"...........[Fire x SFV] x Fire

if the males and feamles are on there propper sides,,,,then this is a Reverced Backcross

i wonder if this was an idea, so he dont use the Fire clone, so mutch....................if so,,i think hes stuck gold


hay capt, where are you man?..we need this clearing up

 

[englishrick]

Naturally less fitness accompanies the move towards homozygosity during all inbreeding programs regarding most outcrossing plants - yin and yang, both are a given. One may delay inbreeding depression by using less intense forms of inbreeding, but very likely be simultaneously delaying the move towards homozygosity along with it. Selfing to the point of homozygosity coupled with crossing to others from different lines is standard in breeding of outcrossing plants and has been for quite a while.

your like a bottom less pit of interesting info col....."please god, one day il be tellin the kids how its done propperly"

hay col

how do we know when plants are homozygos?

and what would you sugest for the outcross at the end.....would you use a female from a paralell line?......

 

[englishrick]

here is 1 of my early hypothetical Breeding Maps

its still a good idea........

what do you think guys?

 

[englishrick]

click the bar at the top of the picture to see it propperly

 

[englishrick]

here is another map ,,,,,

i call it: Reverced Backcross with Intersex Repair

this one incorpearates the Reverced Backcross

 

[Forest20]

Very well put idea

 

[kopite]

Naturally less fitness accompanies the move towards homozygosity during all inbreeding programs regarding most outcrossing plants - yin and yang, both are a given. One may delay inbreeding depression by using less intense forms of inbreeding, but very likely be simultaneously delaying the move towards homozygosity along with it. Selfing to the point of homozygosity coupled with crossing to others from different lines is standard in breeding of outcrossing plants and has been for quite a while.

I'm presuming the numbers that will be grown out will be small therefore drift will come into play also overdominance may play a part hence lack of vigor .sterility etc will occur quickly. But I'm no expert and certainly need to read more on the subject .....

With cheese x cheese S1 there is no outcrossing or are we looking at sib crossing? Think I need to read shull more !!!!!

Kopite

 

[amoril]

so, ive been mulling over englishrick's threads the last few days....Im not sure which this would be most applicable to, but im posting here since this is the 'hot' one lmao.

I was initially of the mindset that this wouldnt be very successful...

now, I think it could work, depending on the results you were hoping to achieve. You should be able to isolate two separate genotypes from a single plant. Thats not the hard part.

the problem is going to come when you 'hybridize' the two genotypes. Youre not going to get that much vigor back. In fact, the final hybrid will in all likelihood fall short of the original mother plant that spawned the whole genome.

take the mothers gene pool, and pull 2 lines from it. In many of the discarded genotypes will be alleles that were present in the original mother, and may or may not have been expressed...but its a safe bet that some of them were.

Hybrid vigor doesnt just come from air, its an expression of the genome. You only get out of it what goes in...two dominantly-breeding plants with little relation will yield the most 'vigor'....the expression of dominant alleles for a wide variety of stimulii. The best of both worlds....

the end result may be close to the original mother, that depends on you. And, it may breed more true...again, thats subject to the breeder/grower, and the selection process used.

So, im not going to say its a waste of time or resources. But, I would advocate a serious 'step back' approach, to make sure its actually a task you can undertake.

 

[englishrick]

I'm presuming the numbers that will be grown out will be small therefore drift will come into play also overdominance may play a part hence lack of vigor .sterility etc will occur quickly. But I'm no expert and certainly need to read more on the subject .....

With cheese x cheese S1 there is no outcrossing or are we looking at sib crossing? Think I need to read shull more !!!!!

Kopite

i think your onto something....keep digging

 

[englishrick]

so, ive been mulling over englishrick's threads the last few days....Im not sure which this would be most applicable to, but im posting here since this is the 'hot' one lmao.

I was initially of the mindset that this wouldnt be very successful...

now, I think it could work, depending on the results you were hoping to achieve. You should be able to isolate two separate genotypes from a single plant. Thats not the hard part.

the problem is going to come when you 'hybridize' the two genotypes. Youre not going to get that much vigor back. In fact, the final hybrid will in all likelihood fall short of the original mother plant that spawned the whole genome.

take the mothers gene pool, and pull 2 lines from it. In many of the discarded genotypes will be alleles that were present in the original mother, and may or may not have been expressed...but its a safe bet that some of them were.

Hybrid vigor doesnt just come from air, its an expression of the genome. You only get out of it what goes in...two dominantly-breeding plants with little relation will yield the most 'vigor'....the expression of dominant alleles for a wide variety of stimulii. The best of both worlds....

the end result may be close to the original mother, that depends on you. And, it may breed more true...again, thats subject to the breeder/grower, and the selection process used.

So, im not going to say its a waste of time or resources. But, I would advocate a serious 'step back' approach, to make sure its actually a task you can undertake.

Feelin HOT HOT HOT.....


i love the way your comin round to this idea

please try and prove me wrong

 

[amoril]

Feelin HOT HOT HOT.....


i love the way your comin round to this idea

please try and prove me wrong

nah, see, its up to YOU to prove to us

honestly, it really will come down to the selection process, IMO.....with an amazing selection, requiring a large number of plants each generation, you could find what youre looking for.

Its going to require a bit of luck too....if the traits you seek are dominantly expressed, it may be easier work early on, but harder as you progress. IF theyre recessively expressed, it should get progressively easier with each generation, as you remove the undesired genes from the pool.

so luck + effort = success? it can, but it also may not.