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It'd have to be 240, but you already knew that deep down
I was kinda sure, but not 100%. I'm just getting started learning about electrical theory, so you'll have to bear with me.
Watts amps and volts! Wattage divided by Voltage = Amps. Amps * Voltage = Wattage. Wattage / Amperage = Voltage
With any two of those figures, it's easy as PIE (for all you electronics guys and electricians out there -
)!But yeah, you knew, that's why it even occurred to you to ask, just weren't sure. Was applauding your instincts
Unless it is a purely resistive load, the watts/volts=amps is an incomplete equation and can severaly underestimate the actual current draw of an inductive load. by as much as 50% .
High power factor magnetic ballasts have a power factor of about .90
low power factor magnetic ballasts can have a power factor as low as .50
electronic ballasts generally have a power factor of .95-.99
The complete equation is:
watts/volts/power factor=amps
volts x amps x power factor = watts
watts/amps/power factor=volts
and it should be called Watt's law, as there is no ohm in it.
High power factor magnetic ballasts have a power factor of about .90
low power factor magnetic ballasts can have a power factor as low as .50
electronic ballasts generally have a power factor of .95-.99
The complete equation is:
watts/volts/power factor=amps
volts x amps x power factor = watts
watts/amps/power factor=volts
and it should be called Watt's law, as there is no ohm in it.
Unless it is a purely resistive load, the watts/volts=amps is an incomplete equation and can severaly underestimate the actual current draw of an inductive load. by as much as 50% .
High power factor magnetic ballasts have a power factor of about .90
low power factor magnetic ballasts can have a power factor as low as .50
electronic ballasts generally have a power factor of .95-.99
The complete equation is:
watts/volts/power factor=amps
volts x amps x power factor = watts
watts/amps/power factor=volts
and it should be called Watt's law, as there is no ohm in it.
50%?! News to me!
Using your equation, a 1kw @ the .99 you quoted changes the calculation from 8.33 to 8.38. That's hardly a 50% difference.
Even at the 8k/240, you're going from 33.3 to 33.6.
So, if I'm reading your equation right (no guarantee), your extra step has no effect at all on figuring out what size circuit to use for a grow?
Edit: Just to clarify, Ohm's Law does indeed have a resistance component, we just don't use it in this situation, because it's not applicable.
Watt's law, Watts=volt x amps x power factor, is the formula for power, in ac circuits you have to include the power factor to calculate it accuratly. In DC circuits there is no power factor, it is always 100%
Ohm's law, volts= amps x ohms, tells you nothing about power.
Your example used a high power factor, so you are correct to say that t has little effect on figuring out what size circuit to use for a grow.
Try it again with the low power factor of .50?
And just to clarify, most higher wattage ballasts are high power factor, but many lower wattage ballasts are low power factor.
It is the exclusion of the ballast loses and power factor that create the discrepency between calculated current using the PIE formula and actual real world current.
I wasn't meaning to bust your balls, just spreading the word and educating.
Ohm's law, volts= amps x ohms, tells you nothing about power.
Your example used a high power factor, so you are correct to say that t has little effect on figuring out what size circuit to use for a grow.
Try it again with the low power factor of .50?
And just to clarify, most higher wattage ballasts are high power factor, but many lower wattage ballasts are low power factor.
It is the exclusion of the ballast loses and power factor that create the discrepency between calculated current using the PIE formula and actual real world current.
I wasn't meaning to bust your balls, just spreading the word and educating.
S
Speedcat
Im sorry, but were straying away from my thread on how to make a single 1000 watt ballast more safe. The purpose of this thread is not how to run 16 lights in a grow wear house, its for the person running a 1000 watt ballast off of a 120 volt outlet without any wireing having to be done. I asked about the $75 dollar CAP module thing and it looks completely different that the other one that was posted with 4 outlets. I do not have access to anything BUT a 120 volt outlet due to where im living. SO my question is how do i hook up the cap controller thats 75 dollars. The CAP module Im looking into getting looks like it has ONE power cord to plug into the wall or timer and on the other end of the cord is a small rectangular box with 2 Outlets on it. Dose this device make my situation any safer, will it be usefull to me in making stuff safer and how do I set that thing up and only that cap controller.http://www.plantlightinghydroponics.com/cap-upm1-120v-universal-power-module-p-1392.html.
I know alot of you have very usefull wireing skills and have good info to post but if the time comes to running more than 1 1000 watt light I will have to do a 240 volt, with all the bling in wiring and boxes n such and I will move to a house. But please stay on topic and help the 90% of people who have a 1000 watt ballset or under set up a safer environment with one of these CAP controllers. Its getting discouraging sifting threw tons of post about 8000 watt set ups on breakers and 240 dryer vents getting re wired lol.
I know alot of you have very usefull wireing skills and have good info to post but if the time comes to running more than 1 1000 watt light I will have to do a 240 volt, with all the bling in wiring and boxes n such and I will move to a house. But please stay on topic and help the 90% of people who have a 1000 watt ballset or under set up a safer environment with one of these CAP controllers. Its getting discouraging sifting threw tons of post about 8000 watt set ups on breakers and 240 dryer vents getting re wired lol.
Or you could just get the $30 timer I posted
Or the $10 Brinks timer from Wal-Mart I've been using for over two years now with no problems, as have many many others
Look at some threads. Notice how many fancy controllers and relay boxes you see compared to timers
As my sig says, growing is only as complicated and expensive as you want it to be
Or the $10 Brinks timer from Wal-Mart I've been using for over two years now with no problems, as have many many others
Look at some threads. Notice how many fancy controllers and relay boxes you see compared to timers
As my sig says, growing is only as complicated and expensive as you want it to be
S
Speedcat
and as my link dosent say "growing safe is only as good as your set ups weakest link" and if thats a $10 timer then shit...Ive melted 2 timers. One from walmart and the other from home depot. SO I think Ill try and find out how to hook this module box up so my only possessions don't burn down in a fire, then go to jail for growing weed. Its like being on a air plane. youll probably land all your life safely on the run way, but maybe just maybe your on one of the couple of planes that dosent land safe every year...once you come hope to a wall of melting plastic you will understand. I didnt mean to sound like ass if I did, Im stoned.
I've melted timers before, as I said earlier. My answer was to find a different timer that doesn't have that problem.
To use your example, I got a different plane
If you've already gotten it, or decided to, then I misunderstood, and it is a moot point anyway.
And I was thinking you were sounding like an ass, glad to know it wasn't intentional, I do that when I'm blazed too
To use your example, I got a different plane
If you've already gotten it, or decided to, then I misunderstood, and it is a moot point anyway.
And I was thinking you were sounding like an ass, glad to know it wasn't intentional, I do that when I'm blazed too
How do I: true RMS power use?
How do I: true RMS power use?
The only way to know power use for real is to measure it. This means knowing voltage and current at every sampling point over a period of many cycles. PF stuff kind of works for a general idea but inductors and capacitors built into a heater (ballast) are definitely going to change in different conditions, so its unlikely the current vs input is consistent over time.
So basically your options are high speed sampling true-RMS power meter (kill-o-watt meters probably qualifies, most standard DMMs wont do power from separate voltage and current inputs simultaneously, and having separate DMM with logging is probably a pain to sync)
or a multichannel oscilloscope to observe mains voltage and current via a sense resistor voltage or a current probe, in sync. Then you have to average the area under the wave to get an idea of total power (methods vary depending on gear, but i've gotten really close just eyeballing and estimating using geometry with analog oscilloscope output).
just buy a kill-o-watt if you have no idea what i just said. they're not lab accurate but they'll definitely give you and idea and if you don't have as much headroom as the error on a kill-o-watt or other commercial power meter, you don't have enough headroom.
General rule of thumb in electronics is 25% min headroom on voltage, current and thermal specs on devices to feel any confidence about reliability. If you want something much closer to a guarantee (you'll never, ever be 100% reliable over a big enough manufacturing run), you run 2x necessary, 100% headroom.
If you want to be like China electronics, you run -25% to 25% headroom. 1/3HP spec on a 1000W rated inductive load is like -75% headroom, its worse the China; even they would be scared.
How do I: true RMS power use?
The only way to know power use for real is to measure it. This means knowing voltage and current at every sampling point over a period of many cycles. PF stuff kind of works for a general idea but inductors and capacitors built into a heater (ballast) are definitely going to change in different conditions, so its unlikely the current vs input is consistent over time.
So basically your options are high speed sampling true-RMS power meter (kill-o-watt meters probably qualifies, most standard DMMs wont do power from separate voltage and current inputs simultaneously, and having separate DMM with logging is probably a pain to sync)
or a multichannel oscilloscope to observe mains voltage and current via a sense resistor voltage or a current probe, in sync. Then you have to average the area under the wave to get an idea of total power (methods vary depending on gear, but i've gotten really close just eyeballing and estimating using geometry with analog oscilloscope output).
just buy a kill-o-watt if you have no idea what i just said. they're not lab accurate but they'll definitely give you and idea and if you don't have as much headroom as the error on a kill-o-watt or other commercial power meter, you don't have enough headroom.
General rule of thumb in electronics is 25% min headroom on voltage, current and thermal specs on devices to feel any confidence about reliability. If you want something much closer to a guarantee (you'll never, ever be 100% reliable over a big enough manufacturing run), you run 2x necessary, 100% headroom.
If you want to be like China electronics, you run -25% to 25% headroom. 1/3HP spec on a 1000W rated inductive load is like -75% headroom, its worse the China; even they would be scared.
puff adder
Member
That CAP UPM-1 is exactly what you need.
madpenguin
Member
Speedcat, the CAP UPM-1 will work for you. It has prongs on the back of the box that you can't see in the picture. That entire box plugs DIRECTLY into a wall outlet. Then you run that 16' "trigger cable" over to another outlet that has a standard cheapo timer plugged in. Plug the trigger cord into the timer.
That easy.
But, again... I don't like the look of those two "outlets" on the control module. Those are just as susceptible to failure as a cheap timer IMO.... So.... Instead of melting a timer, you'll melt the actual control box "outlets"...
Not saying it will happen for sure, but is certainly a possibility.
S
Speedcat
thanks mad penguine,. one question tho have you acutely opend one up and looked at it or are you assuming, just wondering. And If you could, can you post how to make one of those controllers and what supplies to get. Im looking for simplicity. also, how do you ferel about me using a heavy duty surg protector and instead of plugging the module into the wall, plug it into the surge protector then enclosing the module and surg protector in a metal box each with a hole on each end for the surge protector cord and anotehr for module cord to come threw, o and one more hole for the ballast cord to enter..
Yes the CAP UPM-1 will work for you, thats why I said you should get it. I don't run them but I do run other CAP lighting controllers with a different plug design and they seem quality enough for me. I'm no electrician though and mad penguin knows more about the issue than I.
I would have no qualms about running a 1000 watt ballast on this device though, it is certainly safer than running it straight through the timer.
Now if you could run your own stuff I would say avoid that over-priced unit, but since you want plug and play this is the ticket.
I totally understand not wanting to wire your own stuff. I wanted a semi plug and play unit so I went with a cap 8 light controller and ran 8 gauge wire to my panel. It wasn't very difficult.
I would have no qualms about running a 1000 watt ballast on this device though, it is certainly safer than running it straight through the timer.
Now if you could run your own stuff I would say avoid that over-priced unit, but since you want plug and play this is the ticket.
I totally understand not wanting to wire your own stuff. I wanted a semi plug and play unit so I went with a cap 8 light controller and ran 8 gauge wire to my panel. It wasn't very difficult.
I know you didn't ask me this question, but plugging it in to a "heavy duty" surge protector is just adding more points for arcing to occur. So I think that madpenguin would say don't do it.
I understand your trying to build a fireproof box, but I think your just adding more things to go wrong personally.
S
Speedcat
thanks.
I use the Woods brand heavy duty digital applance timers, easy to program, they don't even get warm, 1 per 1K light, been working great for a long time now.
Exactly. Now you have to worry about all sorts of contacts wearing, buss bars coming out of place and shorting, TVS devices (surge protector devices) can short out, along with all the problems you had before.
And arcing isn't really the problem. In fact if it arcs it might weld contacts which, although inconvenient, definitely won't start a fire.
The problem is when contacts become worn or corroded, resistance is added because the contact area is reduced or from an oxidized layer, which produced a voltage drop, which dissipates heat.
Contacts ideally are zero ohms, the more you deviate from that ideal the more heat is dissipated at the contact.
