Terpin production according to nutrients

[CACTUSFLOWER]

speaking of water, i want to play with ro water. my mother grew up in a third world culture and i remember a few times asking why she added rocks to a tea. Minerals. So... which rocks to add? Boil RO water with different rocks and test? yes.

Any one play around with this type of experiment?

I've poured boiling water on various rock dusts, vegan fertilizer, and molasses let it cool and then added compost and brewed tea but didn't do a proper comparative experiment

 

[DooDahMan]

The underlying geology and groundwater is utterly critical to the product,

Sometimes you first need some preparation too:

North west of Amsterdam in the polder near the Northsea is one of the very best outdoor growing area's in the world. That's probably why there are also the biggest flowers field in the world.

 

[ChaosCatalunya]

Yes, "strange" when there should be problems with Sea Salt there... But there are a few threads here really benefits of Sea derived salts and IIRC the piece on Burgundy wine region mentioned geological deposits of Marine origin.

Here a similar area, the Ebro delta, gives massive plants, but I had put it down to the fresh water running under 2 or 3m of alluvial soil.

 

[Sam_Skunkman]

Sometimes you first need some preparation too:

View Image

North west of Amsterdam in the polder near the Northsea is one of the very best outdoor growing area's in the world. That's probably why there are also the biggest flowers field in the world.

Not for Cannabis, to cold, to wet, to little sun, S California is better except no water......
-SamS

 

[FatherEarth]

I think some take SAMs word as gospel simply because he has done the research and generally avoids wild speculation based on anecdotal experiences. It seems as though some are in resistance to the work that has already been done in favor of personal hypothesis and or speculation. When bellying up to the big boys debate table, sometimes pulling out the credentials is warranted. Especially when debating theories drawn from actual scientific data vs what some would call anecdotal accounts. In such a case, there is no argument. If we are going to figure out if only concentrations vary or are dormant/rarely expressed plant secondary metabolites being produced by a myriad of factors. There is ample research with cannabis terpene profile variations to point us in the direction. Mostly all supporting SAM's statement of varying of degrees of expression occurring. Finding a rare or surprise terpene hiding in a profile still eludes me. Although I have noticed smells never before noticed or more distinctive layers to the profile, or what ones nose may percieve as new. At this time, with the reports and research data available I can clearly see why sam has doubts about the emergence of new terpenes. With so many variations possible, no way could we rule out that possibility ...yet.

One thing we can do is work together to produce scientifically viable data to speed up the research process. I would think plant sap analysis would be our most accurate route determining the nutritional influences of various inputs over secondary metabolite production. We need a thread to discuss how we can accurately collect the data needed and to establish some guidelines... I'm willing to attempt to do the research and pose this question again when we have some solid data... Thanks to everyone for their contributions . ...Backed by data or not, thanks for sharing your input. Respect to ALL.


Most Respectfully ,

FE

 

[EclipseFour20]

If we assume the following:
1. All potential terpene compounds/profiles are part of the plant's genetic makeup.
2. New terpene compunds/profiles are not NATURALLY created later in the plant's life.
3. When comparing a plant's "actual" terpenes with the plant's "potential" terpene compounds (available via genetic makeup), most of the time--the number of "actual" is equal to or less than number of "potential" terpenes.

Then how does one explain the occasions in the plant kingdom when, "naturally", the number of "actual" terpene compounds are greater than the plant's "potential" terpenes (genetic makeup)? You know--when the number of "actual" is greater than number of "potential" terpenes.

 

[Bubbleblower]

There should be separate threads for people who know from theory it is not possible to significantly influence terpene profile and terpene production and those who know from experience it is.
Knowing from experience doesn't mean yet not having the theory to back it up. It is just not widely known apparently, but influencing terpene profiles and production is rather easy.

Here a similar area, the Ebro delta, gives massive plants, but I had put it down to the fresh water running under 2 or 3m of alluvial soil.

In the polder north of Amsterdam ("Kop van Noord Holland") there are lots of underground rivers too besides regular streams.
That may be another reason why it is so much better than S. California, which is a horrible place for growing weed.

In the Kop van Noord Holland the growing season is at least as long, but we get much more light and almost as much sun (significantly more than the rest of the Netherlands).
We grow the best flowers, why not the best cannabis flowers?

 

[CACTUSFLOWER]

thanks O O, thats an informative and interesting way to look at it

 

[Sam_Skunkman]

There should be separate threads for people who know from theory it is not possible to significantly influence terpene profile and terpene production and those who know from experience it is.
Knowing from experience doesn't mean yet not having the theory to back it up. It is just not widely known apparently, but influencing terpene profiles and production is rather easy.

I have no doubt that terpene profile can be altered, but I have my doubts that a new terpene will pop up in the same clone it has not been found in before. It is easy to alter the terpene profile, cold, extreme heat, nutrients, many other things will do this.

In the polder north of Amsterdam ("Kop van Noord Holland") there are lots of underground rivers too besides regular streams.
That may be another reason why it is so much better than S. California, which is a horrible place for growing weed.

Have you ever grown in S Calif? Some of the best Original Haze I ever grew was in S Calif.
I have also grown a lot outdoors over the last 30 years in the Netherlands, and anyone that thinks growing in the Netherlands outdoors is so much better is maybe nuts. Most Cannabis varieties will not fully finish or fully mature outdoors in Holland.

In the Kop van Noord Holland the growing season is at least as long, but we get much more light and almost as much sun (significantly more than the rest of the Netherlands).
We grow the best flowers, why not the best cannabis flowers?

You do not grow the best flowers in Holland, you can produce them cheaper. Why not the best Cannabis? Because most grow here under lights for speed, yield, strength, not quality, growers here want quantity, most Cannabis here is dried for 10 days and sold. Nasty....
As for the growing season being as long are you joking?
If you put a Skunk #1 outdoors in the Netherlands much before May 15 it will try and flower, after August it can easily get to cold and wet and gray to allow almost all Cannabis to flower properly outdoors, is a lot of Haze grown outdoors in the Netherlands? Why not?
14 1/2 hours of light in Cal max, 10 hours shortest
Holland almost 17 hour max, and 7h 40 min
But it is the cold, wet and gray that makes growers grow under lights or in greenhouses in Holland.
I have grown plants outdoors until the end of Dec in the Netherlands and in Calif, in the Netherlands they do not flower much at all after August or early Sept, and with little or no resin. Except for a few very early varieties. Norther Calif can be almost the same cold wet winters that start in Oct, either your crop is out or it gets trashed by the wet and cold. I still remember Dutch Purple Pars that I grew in the 80's, not high quality at all, but it did finish outdoors here in Holland.
-SamS

 

[Bubbleblower]

I have my doubts that a new terpene will pop up.

But that is not relevant, we are only interested in getting the very best terpenoïd profiles ever.

Some of the best Original Haze I ever grew was in S Calif.

Now I see what you mean with S. California, the Sta. Cruz region sure is a great place to grow.
Anything say south of Big Sur is worthless though, because like you said it gets way too dry.

I have also grown a lot outdoors over the last 30 years in the Netherlands, and anyone that thinks growing in the Netherlands outdoors is so much better is maybe nuts.

Not Netherlands, but the Kop van Noord Holland, which really makes a huge difference.

Have you ever grown in S Calif?

Glad you asked. Yes, I have

You do not grow the best flowers in Holland, you can produce them cheaper.

Is that because our labour is so cheap or because we have so much space?
Holland is the second biggest agricultural net exporter in the world with a value of over 100 billion dollars.
That is 100 billion reasons to produce these flowers elsewhere if only they could.
But that is not possible unless you have the unique soil and microclimate.
Tulips originated from China and they are our biggest export market now.

As for the growing season being as long are you joking?

Not at all; it's the temperature at night that is most important.
With the warm seawater you can be assured in March there will be no more frost.
To be clear again; this is only near the coast.

is a lot of Haze grown outdoors in the Netherlands?

Yes, even today with all the autoflower crap purple haze is probably still the most popular.
Because it can handle toprot very well and finishes surprisingly fast at our lattitude.
It likes high humidity, which is why it wouldn't do very well in S. California.
Every spring we can get cuttings of it, even with our new growshop law.

I still remember Dutch Purple Pars

These Dutch Purple Pars (never heard of) were probably also a purple haze (cross).
I agree back in the 80s it wasn't high quality (referring to purpeltjes), hardly worth growing.
But may be it was after all if only the weather had been better already.

in the Netherlands they do not flower much at all

That may take some adjusting.

the 80's

We have the same weather now as the Bordeaux region back then. Especially along the coast with the warm seawater. Holland heats up much faster than other regions because of all the industrial waste going through our delta's. This is Holland now compared to 15 years ago (comparing 2000 to 1985 would be simular) :

The Kop van Noord Holland would be like Galicia (Spain) now, except much less rain and more sun. The rain literally blows over here or is somehow stopped by the dunes apparently. There is a unique micro climate behind the dunes of Schoorl where there is much more sun than only 10 miles further south.

Friends of mine have several coffeeshops for almost 40 years now and I always got to smoke what was too good to sell.
The best weed I ever smoked is Thai 82, N. California 89 and Kop van Noord Holland 2006.

 

[Sam_Skunkman]

I have grown thousands and thousands of plants outdoors in Holland, it is not a good climate for Cannabis maturation in Oct, Nov, Dec no matter what you say. What % of the Cannabis grown in the Netherlands is grown outdoors today? 1 or 2% at the most? It is unreliable to depend on for an optimum crop year after year. Maybe that is why 2006 was a good year in your memory? Do you really think it can be done every year in large numbers?
I will beg to differ, the Netherlands is not a great place to grow outdoors, the weather is just terrible for Cannabis, cold, wet, gray when the plants are flowering.
Oh and BTW I know the difference between Purple Haze and purple pars, I brought the Original Haze to the Netherlands in 1985. Purple Paars was sold by several of the very early Dutch seed banks like Lowland seeds and Positronics, and Dr Weed Josephine. I still have all their seed catalogs from the early 80's. I tried all their seeds, was not impressed by the quality, effects, potency, or much even when I grew them in a greenhouse to maximize performance. The best were just OK.
-SamS

 

[Sam_Skunkman]

x

But that is not relevant, we are only interested in getting the very best terpenoïd profiles ever.


Now I see what you mean with S. California, the Sta. Cruz region sure is a great place to grow.
Anything say south of Big Sur is worthless though, because like you said it gets way too dry.

You ever hear of artesian wells and drip irrigation for way to dry places? That is like saying the Netherlands has the same weather now as the Bordeaux region back then, why do I doubt that? Enough of the sillyness, Netherlands does not have the weather that Bordeaux had.

Not Netherlands, but the Kop van Noord Holland, which really makes a huge difference.


Glad you asked. Yes, I have


Is that because our labour is so cheap or because we have so much space?
Holland is the second biggest agricultural net exporter in the world with a value of over 100 billion dollars.
That is 100 billion reasons to produce these flowers elsewhere if only they could.
But that is not possible unless you have the unique soil and microclimate.
Tulips originated from China and they are our biggest export market now.

More then 50% of the ?100 billion? is grown in greenhouses not outdoors in the soil. The greenhouse industry uses soilless growing. I have not yet heard the 100 billion figure, I knew it was second to the USA. Just California has twice as many pot farmers as all of Holland.
Kazakhstan is where I heard the tulip comes from via the Ottoman empire to get to the Netherlands.
-SamS

Not at all; it's the temperature at night that is most important.
With the warm seawater you can be assured in March there will be no more frost.
To be clear again; this is only near the coast.


Yes, even today with all the autoflower crap purple haze is probably still the most popular.
Because it can handle toprot very well and finishes surprisingly fast at our lattitude.
It likes high humidity, which is why it wouldn't do very well in S. California.
Every spring we can get cuttings of it, even with our new growshop law.

Again S Calif has the ability to produce top quality Haze outdoors, I have seen it year after year, from the 70's to the present. I know of no experienced haze grower that would want to grow a crop of Haze outdoors in the Netherlands, over outdoors in S Calif.
Unless you are the one.
-SamS

These Dutch Purple Pars (never heard of) were probably also a purple haze (cross).
I agree back in the 80s it wasn't high quality (referring to purpeltjes), hardly worth growing.
But may be it was after all if only the weather had been better already.


That may take some adjusting.


We have the same weather now as the Bordeaux region back then. Especially along the coast with the warm seawater. Holland heats up much faster than other regions because of all the industrial waste going through our delta's. This is Holland now compared to 15 years ago (comparing 2000 to 1985 would be simular) :

View Image

The Kop van Noord Holland would be like Galicia (Spain) now, except much less rain and more sun. The rain literally blows over here or is somehow stopped by the dunes apparently. There is a unique micro climate behind the dunes of Schoorl where there is much more sun than only 10 miles further south.

Friends of mine have several coffeeshops for almost 40 years now and I always got to smoke what was too good to sell.
The best weed I ever smoked is Thai 82, N. California 89 and Kop van Noord Holland 2006.

 

[Bubbleblower]

Oh and BTW I know the difference between Purple Haze and purple pars

I still don't know what purple pars is.
We did have purple power, but as you know only after skunk was introduced.
All these names are confusing, especially since we also have power plant and PP-tjes.
Purpeltjes to me are purple haze not to be confused with any of the above.
Probably you gave it to Wernard and we got it through him.

Maybe that is why 2006 was a good year in your memory?

Not just in my memory, but in everybody's memory, people still talk about it today.
And I mean the most experienced smokers you can imagine whose opinion you would surely respect.

Do you really think it can be done every year in large numbers?

No, but that is because of the stupid laws we have.

To get exceptional quality you need the extreme weather we had in 2006.
Other years you'd still get very good quality though if you let the plants develop fully.
Most people by the coast don't realise this and grow shitty genetics not expecting much.
Which of course then becomes a selffullfilling prophecy.

why do I doubt that?

Yes why do you, is it so hard to imagine?
That information comes from the KNMI and is 100% reliable.

More then 50% of the ?100 billion? is grown in greenhouses not outdoors in the soil.

50 Billion is still a lot.
In the Kop van Noord Holland there are no greenhouses and all tulips grow uitdoors:

https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=tulpenvelden

I know of no experienced haze grower that would want to grow a crop of Haze outdoors in the Netherlands, over outdoors in S Calif.
Unless you are the one.

I don't consider myself an experienced haze grower, I assume it is simular to sativa's which I have more experience with.
For sativa's I would rather grow in the Kop van Noord Holland than Southern California, which to me means almost Mexico.
For indica's S. California would be better and Holland would be terrible.

Again S Calif has the ability to produce top quality Haze outdoors, I have seen it year after year, from the 70's to the present.

Well, I have never been lucky enough to see it, but that doesn't mean anything yet; you don't know you can grow the best weed in the Kop van Noord Holland either, while you live around the corner.

 

[ghostmade]

^^^lol its like throwing stones at a giant.

 

[Sam_Skunkman]

Anyone that has grown Haze outdoors please check the temps in November & December & January & February and March in the Netherlands where it has been suggested by some that Haze grows well outdoors:

Average Temperature °C ( °F) Jan-3 (37.4) Feb-2 (35.6) March-4.5 (40.1) April-7.5 (45.5) May-11.5 (52.7) June- 15 (59) July-17 (62.6) August-17.5 (63.5) September-15.5 (59.9) October-11.5 (52.7) November-7 (44.6) December-4 (39.2)


Average Temperatures Table for Den Helder:

http://www.den-helder.climatemps.com/temperatures.php

 

[Only Ornamental]

I skipped over the last few posts, sorry bout that...
Anyway, I'd like to bring us back to the maybe more important factor and original point of discussion: Nutrients and the soil itself. What makes the Netherlands and other regions so great is clay rich sediment. Hemp/cannabis loves clay rich soil! There's nothing new to that but it's why hemp for example in the Po river plain grows better than hemp around Valence with a similar climate.
Sure, the whole climate thing especially when growing 'artificially' and with a lot of fertilisers becomes more important than which soil is underneath your hydroponics greenhouse...

BTW Bubble, your maps are completely off! On the first, Amsterdam is in the middle of the ocean and the second ehhh.... France? WTF?

 

[Bubbleblower]

BTW Bubble, your maps are completely off! On the first, Amsterdam is in the middle of the ocean and the second ehhh.... France? WTF?

Not everybody may realise that is a joke.

The map from the KNMI shows the weather in Holland now is simular to that of France only 14 years ago to be exact.
If they made the same map comparing it to 30 years ago we'd end up in Southern France or even Spain for some microclimates like the Kop van Noord Holland. Thanks to the Ruhrgebiet

please check the temps in November & December & January & February and March in the Netherlands where it has been suggested by some that Haze grows well outdoors

Please do, but make sure you use reliable recent data.
These come from the KNMI: http://www.knmi.nl/klimatologie/maandgegevens/index.html
Look at the minimum temperatures in March lately, there is NEVER frost.
In many places in Ca. you can't plant that early.

I have not only grown in S. California, but in M. California too, very close to your plantation.
What I didn't understand was why weed from further north was so much better, since according to all the theory it should be the other way around.
The best was from Humboldt, which at the time nobody outside of Ca. had ever heard of. Way north at almost 41N!

So the best I ever had in 40 years of intensive smoking the very best quality you can possibly get -lots of fine hasj too- was from 13N, 41N and 52N.
It took me more than 25 years to figure out why.

 

[Only Ornamental]

Ah, that way round. Okay, this makes more sense now .

 

[Sam_Skunkman]

x

Not everybody may realise that is a joke.

The map from the KNMI shows the weather in Holland now is simular to that of France only 14 years ago to be exact.
If they made the same map comparing it to 30 years ago we'd end up in Southern France or even Spain for some microclimates like the Kop van Noord Holland. Thanks to the Ruhrgebiet



Please do, but make sure you use reliable recent data.
These come from the KNMI: http://www.knmi.nl/klimatologie/maandgegevens/index.html
Look at the minimum temperatures in March lately, there is NEVER frost.
In many places in Ca. you can't plant that early.


And the temps outdoors in November, December? that is when an outdoor Haze will mature, even in Humboldt, where I lived and know many growers that still grow outdoors there. They do not grow Haze outdoors until the end of December to be flowered. Young seedling Hazes are quite resistant to cold, flowering is not.
This is getting boring, and OT, you say Haze can be grown outdoors in the Netherlands I say no you can't, so be it, I quit. I tried to inform you but you have no room for my info. OK.
I do not agree that Humboldt Cannabis is better then S Calif grown, but I lived in Central Coast Calif and sold people in the North and South seeds and saw the results of many years of crops. S Calif is better for most varieties, outdoors, you just need water, much easier to arrange then a warm dry flowering period outdoors like is needed in Humboldt or the Netherlands.
I will not respond again so lets return the thread to the topic, Terpene production according to nutrients.
-SamS

I have not only grown in S. California, but in M. California too, very close to your plantation.
What I didn't understand was why weed from further north was so much better, since according to all the theory it should be the other way around.
The best was from Humboldt, which at the time nobody outside of Ca. had ever heard of. Way north at almost 41N!

So the best I ever had in 40 years of intensive smoking the very best quality you can possibly get -lots of fine hasj too- was from 13N, 41N and 52N.
It took me more than 25 years to figure out why.

 

[Sam_Skunkman]

This is interesting:

https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=272162