Terpin production according to nutrients

[Sam_Skunkman]

You sure assume alot, like you, I am NOT a geneticist (neither of us are science experts with a string of alphabet soup behind our names), but I do know this--the more I read about genetics, I realize the less I know (as there is an abundant amount of knowledge, both good and bad).

As to your misstatement: "For a person with no experience with terpenes or Cannabis analysis to presume that they can smell the differences and understand the difference from smelling is maybe ridiculous. I understand that anyone could smell the difference but to think you know what the difference is and that their are new terpenes not found in the same plant before is a big jump."

For a smart guy I am bit surprised/disappointed in your words--you don't know me. I am a 61 year old retired professional that has enjoyed weed since the age of 12, a true wine aficionado and Certified Sommelier http://www.mastersommeliers.org/Default.aspx who, since 1985 have taught wine education seminars...and then---for you to suggest I lack the ability to "smell the differences and understand the differences" is...using your words, is "a big jump". BTW, a tool I used at these seminars was Ann Noble's Wine Aroma Wheel http://winearomawheel.com/, displayed below:

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Let's just say--I am not your average dope smoker/cultivator who happens to also have a great nose for detecting nuances in aromas. If you can accurately (6 out of 10 times) identify the varietal and vintage of wine in a "blind tasting"...then you are a better man than I am. It took years of practice/experience for me to achieve this feat. Yep....line up 10 glasses of wine from different bottles (blind tasting) and over half the time I will correctly identify the varietal (zinfandel, cabernet, petite sirah, etc) and vintage (year harvested).

Secondly, your statement "I understand that you think extended flowering for 40 days created new terpenes not found before..." is not an accurate--as I submit (please reread my earlier posts) that nothing "new" is created; rather flowering the extra 40 days "expanded" the existing terpene (so let me repeat--NOTHING NEW WAS CREATED).

Finally if terpene profiles of the same plant were tested at 10 day intervals (starting day 30 of flower and continued to way past normal harvest (say 90 days)...do you think the 7 terpene profiles generated would be "identical"? Of course not. IMHO, terpenes not detected in the earlier tests but show up on the later tests are not "new"...but are "expansions" of existing terpene compounds. Again, NOTHING NEW IS CREATED.

And yes, I use tests to support my theories and validate my suspicions. But the real test is what the collective prefers and they like the tweaks I did about 6 months ago: targeted controlled water deficit (aka abiotic stress). How much do they like it...oh about $300 per unit increase over the "unstressed weed".

FYI, if you don't know it was me that introduced the Cannabis community to the idea that terpenes in Cannabis could modify and make THC stronger. This was with real tests with double blind vaped 25mg pure THC spiked with a single terpene. A 100 question erganoleptic survey before and after the single test in one day, we tested the top 10 terpenes and the top ten Cannabinoids all pure.
That is a pretty real test, it took a dozen volunteers more then month to finish.
As to if you have much experience with Cannabis analysis I really have no idea I just presumed that you did not. Being a wine sommelier, and is that a Certified sommelier? Not a Master or Advanced? May well help you to understand Cannabis, maybe a bit. Sommeliers need skills in choosing cigars that go with a meals and the wines or spirits, Cannabis experts do not. I have several friends that are sommeliers in the Bay Area, one is an Advanced Sommelier, he was studying for taking his test for Master and had a stroke, now he has stopped drinking. And while being a sommelier they have smoked Cannabis for most of their life, yet they do not understand Cannabis like I do, not even close. They do make over $100,000 a year to advise others which bottle to enjoy with their meals, they also say that many of the nouveau riche just want the most expensive wine to impress everyone around them.
I have spent the last 30 years working with Cannabis terpenes and Cannabis breeding for Cannabinoids and terpenes, that is what I do for a living. I don't drink, I don't smoke tobacco.
Yet that said, I could not do what you seemed to be saying you did.
I also have been told I have a super nose, a level of ability to smell the same smells or very slight differences in Cannabis like sister plants of the same variety from seed. To be honest I have never met anyone that has a sense of Cannabis smells anything like me, or very few.
But I do not know you, anything is possible.

I really do not know what you mean, either you can smell the differences and know what they are or you can't list the differences, by profile and %'s and each terpene? I can't, I could make guesses that there is more of a given terpene, and maybe be right sometimes.
The variability in smells from just slight variations in the profiles, just a little more of one and less of another is going to maybe change the smell completely and no way to guess what did it. Alterations of the profile amounts, or new compounds, testing is the only way to know.

Expansions of existing terpenes is an odd term for me to understand that there are no new terpenes what exactly is an expansion of a terpene? Are you referring to the alterations in the terpene profile so that the same terpenes are present, but in different %'s? I just did not understand I guess.
As for the wine aroma wheel some is relevant for Cannabis most is not. Where is your wheel for Cannabis aroma? I have seen several other posts of aroma wheels made just for Cannabis.
I really am not trying to diss you, but I do understand Cannabis terpenes, far better then most if not almost all that post here, one or two may teach me new things, to which I am thankful. I look forward to others knowing much more then me, so I can learn new info from them.

"Finally if terpene profiles of the same plant were tested at 10 day intervals (starting day 30 of flower and continued to way past normal harvest (say 90 days)...do you think the 7 terpene profiles generated would be "identical"? Of course not. IMHO, terpenes not detected in the earlier tests but show up on the later tests are not "new"...but are "expansions" of existing terpene compounds. Again, NOTHING NEW IS CREATED."

I have done thousands of tests for terpenes and yes we can find all the same terpenes in varying amounts week 4 to week 12 no new ones just varying amounts of the same terpenes, only the profile %'s changes.
Almost same with the Cannabinoids what happens with time is the %'s increase but with Cannabinoids not really even the ratios alter, they are pretty constant from seedlings to flowered, just more of them in the same ratios in flowered plants.
-SamS

 

[CACTUSFLOWER]

Terpenes are not taken up by roots and delivered to the flowers.
People that grew in a pine forest and thought their plants smelled like pine only remember the plants that did smell like pine, if they did not smell like pine they were forgotten, but why? If you only remember the plants that agree with your ideas then the proof is not real it is coincidence.
-SamS

Have you found anything specific in soil or nutrient that changes the terpenes in the buds? sorry if this is a newb question

 

[Bubbleblower]

Can confirm, grown the same cuts in orange/mandarin groves and also pine forest, no notable difference.

Have you also tried different strains?

But certain feeds and Boost do seem to have an effect on the taste.

Not to mention the cannabinoïd profile.

I use tests to support my theories and validate my suspicions.

Same here, but I learned by now you shouldn't even mention that and can't share such information on a forum.

Try it and everybody gets hostile, too much cognitive dissonance.

 

[Sam_Skunkman]

Have you found anything specific in soil or nutrient that changes the terpenes in the buds? sorry if this is a newb question

I can increase the amounts of each terpene, by growing organic in soil with lots of fine roots in the raised beds.
-SamS

 

[ghostmade]

Do you have any books of articals i should know about?

 

[curbiechris]

Sam

Have you found any evidence that lighter levels of terpenoids, in combination with cannabinoids, can induce different and more profound and therapeutic effects?

 

[curbiechris]

The cannabis plant is under extreme environmental control. Studies have shown that "regardless of seed origin, several generations in a new location will produce a plant resembling those native to the area where it is being grown". This suggests that many epigenetic factors are are play - gene silencing, promotion etc. Furthermore it follows that the suite of genes available to a cannabis plant is much larger than one would expect purely from the phenotype alone it expresses. More than likely the cannabis plant has an ability to express a wider range of terpenes if grown under a wide variety of environmental conditions (see Greenhouse seed terpene data Hydro vs Soil). My own personal experience with growing Next Generation's Romulan with concentrated lemon juice as a pH buffer resulted in flower's with an intense lemon aroma and flavor after a long cure. Also I had a friend who grew a bagseed in a pine field that resulted in finished product with a lovely pine aroma. One must also take into account the possibility for non-enzymatic production of terpenes to occur.

holy all great prophets...ummm. may i have a source?

 

[curbiechris]

I can increase the amounts of each terpene, by growing organic in soil with lots of fine roots in the raised beds.
-SamS

What is your reasoning for the raised beds? better on the back?

 

[ChaosCatalunya]

Have you also tried different strains?



Not to mention the cannabinoïd profile.

Yes, with different strains, pure Sativa, all the way through to Indica Dom, Inc plants also grown inside.

The cannabinoid profile imvho is changed over time, during the harvest window. As a general rule, just based on my own observations, flowers seem to be fruity / grassy, floral early on, moving more towards muskiness/woody later on. I have not experimented enough to say anything about the effects of feed/boosters relative to this, but want to learn

I too like a drop of vino, am always impressed by sommeliers of any level, and also am totally aware that many people far more experienced and skilled than me place great importance on terroir. Burgundy is my favourite example, Priorat near me here is Spain's "equivalent"... The underlying geology and groundwater is utterly critical to the product, so as we stumble through the final moments of the Cannabis Dark Ages I am expecting that once it is all legal, we will find that certain soils and water produce higher quality weed. I think I can say with some certainty, albeit with zero scientific evidence, that shitty water makes inferior smoke.

A decent quick intro to wine regions and soils. http://www.winegeeks.com/articles/139

 

[EclipseFour20]

Sam, not saying your life experiences are not worthy, just suggesting you prematurely judged mine without any basis or fact--as you do not know me.

Terpenes emissions affect many things, including aromas, taste and flavors. Using the talents/skills God gave me (ability to detect nuances in aromas) I used my nose to discern which sample of weed has a more deep complex aromas. Not very definitive, but can be fairly accurate with experience. For the record, I never said I can detect specific percentages or that my nose can detect all terpenes, or identify a single terpene from a combination of others....rather it can detect between two samples which one is more complex by discerning/detecting nuances of the each sample's aroma, taste and flavor. Example of an non-OG bud I have in front of me--I don't smell "just citrus"....rather I smell a burnt grapefruit with a slight sweet overtone, followed by a hint of flinty mineral-like aroma. It is the nuances I pickup...not whether is has a citrus, pine or fruit-like aroma. So please don't put words in my mouth and suggest that identifying nuances is the same as ability to "smell the differences and know what they are....list the differences, by profile and %'s and each terpene...". Two completely different concepts.

By no means am I discounting your past contributions to this discussion...but, IMHO you should not have been so quick to discount contributions/experiences of someone you know nothing about. I think we need to be more "tolerant of opposing viewpoints"...not less, especially since most of us are playing for the same team.

BTW, my love for wine is about equal for my love of weed. To demonstrate my acquired skills/knowledge/experiences in wine, I completed the first two levels offered by the "Court of Master Sommelier"...taking two years to complete. The third and fourth levels are normally reserved for those employed in the wine/food industry and which does lead to the title of Master Sommelier. My professional life had nothing to do with wine...other than a few thousand I made flipping a few cases of cult wine, my income was a result of my abilities/skills in corporate finance, due-diligence, forensic accounting, business and tax strategies, and legal support (expert witness). If a "Master Sommelier" equivalent existed for cannabis, I think many of us would be proudly displaying our diplomas; unfortunately that is not the case...oh well, at least I have a "Certified Sommelier" diploma hanging on my ego wall.

 

[SpaceBros.]

holy all great prophets...ummm. may i have a source?

For someone who seems to take everything Sam says as gospel without any substantiating evidence I didn't think things like scientific research would get in the way of your beliefs.

Bouchet, J. "Nouvelle Contributions a l'Etude de la Cannabis." Archives de la Institute de Pasteur de Tunis (1937/38)

http://www.greenhouseseeds.nl/shop/strains-terpenes-profiles.html

 

[CACTUSFLOWER]

My dog can smell the difference in weed, if she wants to sit in my lap I know it's gonna be fire, she would chime in but she's a tight lipped guard dog, need to know basis

 

[Sam_Skunkman]

My dog can smell the difference in weed, if she wants to sit in my lap I know it's gonna be fire, she would chime in but she's a tight lipped guard dog, need to know basis

Does that work in a field of flowering Cannabis? Would be handy to have her check out thousands of plants from seeds and pick the best one for you?...
-SamS

 

[curbiechris]

speaking of water, i want to play with ro water. my mother grew up in a third world culture and i remember a few times asking why she added rocks to a tea. Minerals. So... which rocks to add? Boil RO water with different rocks and test? yes.

Any one play around with this type of experiment?

 

[acridlab]

Does that work in a field of flowering Cannabis? Would be handy to have her check out thousands of plants from seeds and pick the best one for you?...
-SamS

Think u guys r onto something,, a drug sniffing k9, trained to weed out the A grade only and also trained to piss on the rest at high noon so they get nitrogen burn..bam cull those that are marked when u wanna get off the Damn couch....

I love it..
Pure genius

 

[Only Ornamental]

speaking of water, i want to play with ro water. my mother grew up in a third world culture and i remember a few times asking why she added rocks to a tea. Minerals. So... which rocks to add? Boil RO water with different rocks and test? yes.

Any one play around with this type of experiment?

Drinking RO water isn't really a great idea (though not harmful either) and that's why 'rich' countries which use RO plants to make drinking water, for example out of sea water, add certain salts directly afterwards. Poor countries can't and hence that 'rocking idea'. You on the other hand are maybe now a part of the 'upper 10%' as you're in the lucky position to waste RO water on plants growing indoors, hydroponically, and under artificial light. Your question is like driving a hummer and asking which stone to take cause you wanted to carve your tires out of stone disk...
As it's likely about micronutrients (as the macronutrients won't work in 'stone form' for hydroponics), there is no answer to your question as it's about exchangeable ions and those aren't the same for two 'rocks' even of the same mineral. If ever, go with a blend of natural high CEC clay but then again, you'd be better off growing in plain soil.

 

[CACTUSFLOWER]

Does that work in a field of flowering Cannabis? Would be handy to have her check out thousands of plants from seeds and pick the best one for you?...
-SamS

If a dog can sniff out a cancer tumor in a human then they could probably be trained to sniff out the "strongest" something in a field of flowers. They could definitely tell the difference between a mostly indica or mostly sativa even when the plants looks and smells the same to us. I've watched dog obedience trials and they can do some amazing things.
My dog and I frolicking in a field of cannabis sniffing for great weed does sound heavenly though

 

[Only Ornamental]

It's not that simple, dogs sniff 'yes' or 'no', not something 'more' amongst many 'averages' and 'lesses'. The plant you're looking for would have to contain something the others don't or at least which contains hundred times more of it. They don't have a 'better' nose, just a more sensitive one. If you took a sample and concentrated it a hundred times and gave it to a perfumer he would be able to do a way better job than the dog .

 

[CACTUSFLOWER]

It's not that simple, dogs sniff 'yes' or 'no', not something 'more' amongst many 'averages' and 'lesses'. The plant you're looking for would have to contain something the others don't or at least which contains hundred times more of it. They don't have a 'better' nose, just a more sensitive one. If you took a sample and concentrated it a hundred times and gave it to a perfumer he would be able to do a way better job than the dog .

Originally the argument was about turning on a gene to produce a terpene that wouldn't be present otherwise, just having fun with the dog bit but they could definitely tell the difference in two such samples

 

[Only Ornamental]

Yes, if you have two different samples a smart/trained dog certainly could but not in a field filled with five thousand shades of grey .
Sorry for the OT...

My educated guess (can't proof it!) is that the genes responsible for certain main types of terpenes are, in a flowering plant, all switched either ON or OFF. The difference is in how much ON they are, if you understand what I mean. If you compare plants in growth with such in flower, then they will have different 'terpene genes' activated too.
In theory, a plant can switch on certain defence-related genes (some 'terpene genes' are amongst them) in one part and off in another or I should rather say up- or down-regulate their expression. Say, the plant's flowers are under attack of necrotrophic fungi (grey mould) whereas the roots suffer from biotrophic attack (root rot), then the two will trigger different signalling pathways in the two organs, for example ISR and SAR, respectively. If we now collect several plants (tip to toe), extract them, and determine their individual metabolome, we might hence not see a (statistical) difference between two individuals or between two populations because the plants by themselves are already very heterogeneous. (I know, the root example is very stupid here but it's just an example; if you don't like it, change roots and root rot with leaves and powdery mildew).