It has nothing to do with anyone named John or any alleged patents, but if they predate 2006 I would be interested in knowing more.
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Terp Trommel!
- Thread starter powerbong2000
- Start date
It has nothing to do with anyone named John or any alleged patents, but if they predate 2006 I would be interested in knowing more.
there's a guy named John who went by INDRA on the old boards who claims to have invented BHO extraction and has it patented.
It sounded to me like he was talking about you guys (closed loop makers) here at 56:00 minutes in.
Hash Church 107
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vLKxYww2Xn4
here's a couple of his patents.
Oil extraction process and apparatus therefor
Publication number: 20040147769
Abstract: A process for solvent extraction of oils, in an extraction chamber, comprises the formation of a solvent mist with significant adiabatic cooling, whereby a pressure difference between the solvent inlet and outlet of the extraction chamber drives the solvent mist through the raw oil bearing. The solvent is fed to the extraction chamber at pressures exceeding atmospheric pressure, and the outlet of the extraction chamber is subject to a partial vacuum. An apparatus for solvent extraction comprises an extraction chamber for receiving oil bearing raw material therein, said extraction chamber comprising a solvent spray injection system connected via an inlet to a high pressure solvent feed circuit portion, said extraction chamber further connected via an outlet to a low pressure circuit portion connected to a gas recovery vacuum pump system.
Type: Application
Filed: November 20, 2003
Publication date: July 29, 2004
Inventor: John Henry Davis
Apparatus and method for oil and fat extraction
WO 2010088127 A3
ABSTRACT
An apparatus and method for extracting oils and fats from oil-bearing substances without using degrading temperatures. The apparatus may comprise an extraction chamber containing an oil-bearing substance, an oil-collecting chamber, a recovery pump, a first jacket adjacent at least a portion of the extraction chamber, and a second jacket adjacent at least a portion of the oil-collecting chamber. The method involves heating a solvent and reducing pressure to facilitate a low-temperature vacuum boil, delivering the heated solvent into the extraction chamber configured to facilitate the low-temperature vacuum boil of the solvent within the extraction chamber, pumping the solvent in vapor form out of the extraction chamber with the recovery pump, delivering the oil and fat extracted in the extraction chamber to the oil-collecting chamber, pumping solvent in vapor form out of the oil-collecting chamber with the recovery pump, and delivering the solvent received by the recovery pump to the first and second jackets to provide heat to the chambers.
1. I claim a system for extracting oil from organic material comprising;
a storage zone comprising
a hermetically first tank coupled to a first valve,
the first tank for storing a solvent comprising Butane,
an extraction zone comprising an extraction chamber coupled between the first valve and a second valve, the extraction chamber having a filter proximate to the second valve;
the extraction chamber has a volume between ¼ and ⅙ of the volume of the first tank, and comprises a removable cap proximate to the first valve, able to contain pressures of no less than 250 pounds per square inch, the filter separates flowing butane solvent and plant oil from organic plant material in the extraction chamber; and
a separation zone comprising a second tank having an exit valve for removing plant oil located on a bottom portion of the second tank, and an exit valve located near a top portion of the second tank.
2. The process in claim 1 wherein the solvent is Butane.
3. The process in claim 2 wherein a second solvent is added to Butane to adjust the overall polarity of said Butane.
4. The process in claim 1 wherein a cooling jacket is added to the post extraction second tank.
5. The process in claim 1 wherein heat is added to the first tank to increase the pressure inside of said tank.
6. The process in claim 1 whereby pressure is added to the first tank.
7. The apparatus in claim 1 in which the second tank has a dimension height to width ratio of 1 to 3.
8. The system for performing the process in claim 1 further comprising:
an extraction zone comprising a top stainless steel tank or set of stainless steel tanks which are air tight sealed with an input/exit valve connected to a open/close valve connected to a quick disconnect connector;
a first jacket which covers the top tank or tanks which allows for the circulation of a liquid used for the addition or heat or cold;
a chamber comprising a top open/close valve connected to a removable cap connected to an enclosed air tight stainless steel tank which hold less than ¼ of the volume of the top tanks and has a filter at the bottom connected to a bottom open/close valve; and
a separation zone comprising a bottom stainless steel tank, oil drainage valve at the bottom tank base, and a recapture valve on or near the top said bottom tank which can be connected to the top tanks valve via a hose.
9. The chamber in claim 7 further comprising a vent tube which allows pressure to escape the chamber tank.
10. The apparatus in claim 8, in which the bottom tank's dimensions have a height to width ratio of 1 to 3.
Dabasaurusrex
New member
In my own little arithmetical pondering it seems as though you could get the raw material (not going to be much better than sugar leaf trim, but sometimes that can produce a very good product, to my understanding freshness of trim makes one of the biggest differences.) But say a pound of trim costs around $100 if you're buying in huge quantity and possibly less but 100 is a fair number. Even if it's total cannabinoid content is 5% (which a lot of trim seems to be turning out at much high so, also a conservative number) that means $2000 and you have enough raw material to process into a pound of distillate. I'd say in any sort of organized lab, distillate can be produced around the $4/gram mark if you're making it from crude or byproduct, but don't forget that lab is going to be six figures and probably a 4 figure electric bill most likely. I think that's the most unique part of the concentrate side of cannabis is that you can have a quality product at almost brickweed prices when you consider how much you can medicate with concentrates vs flower of the same price. You don't see a lot of patients discussing what they pay but I have definitely heard of patients receiving NICE budder and shatter for 350-400/z and I KNOW that has to be so much easier on their lungs and wallets to have such a potent medicine for less than $15 a gram that is PLEASANT to vape. People will always want flower but when you consider how efficient the concentrate scene has become with whole plant live-resin, distillation and even just how well artists are able to make piss yellow trim run with consistency. I guess it's just the fact it's much easier to degrade a flower than it is a homogeneous oil.
Yes, someone using Indra showed up running off at the mouth and throwing out BS, threatening to sue, so I told them to fly to it and to put up or shut up.
When they continued to babble bullshit on the site, I sent his input to spam.
When he returned using another IP and pretending to be someone else, I sent that to spam too.
Truth is shorter than fiction, and the truth is I got my idea from FOAF's 2006 post on this forum.
Based on the timing, and design, Indra got his idea from me or someone who followed me.
INDRA apparently released the first Tek on diy BHO extraction in 1999.
https://erowid.org/plants/cannabis/cannabis_info13.shtml
The machine he patented in 2002 doesn't look like the terpernator but the following patent sure does.
Sorry that someone else took you guys down though. At least the cat is out of the bag now regarding hydrocarbon extraction and the DIY types will never be stopped.
Everything we practise and share on IC will be taken over by big business quickly with legalization and be driven back underground again.
HG23
Member
Whoa, an interesting turn of events here.
I watch Hash Church and read Indra's patent from '99. Someone posted it as a thread here not too long ago. After reading it, it seems pretty clear he put a lot of money into the patent and very likely has this industry by the balls, so to speak. Or at least people making money from selling extractors. If you have a system that involves washing material with butane, iso, or propane to collect essential oil then use a pump to recover the vaporous solvent back to a collection tank, that's his idea technically. Unless someone has some prior art that dates back to before '99, but I am sure John (Indra) paid lawyers to go and look for it before they filed the patent.
I'm still confused as to whether or not John is responsible for the shuttering of PharmGold, I think that remains to be divulged by GW at a later time. Maybe it's because of their prior "beef" on here that GW described. I would be surprised if that were the case though, I would think companies like Precision, Ironfist, Bhogart and Bizzybee would also be getting letters in the mail as I'm sure they've made way more money off selling extractors than PharmGold at this point in time.
GW, I'm very sorry to hear about PharmGold. I'm glad to be sitting here looking at my recently acquired Vapor Hawg.
I watch Hash Church and read Indra's patent from '99. Someone posted it as a thread here not too long ago. After reading it, it seems pretty clear he put a lot of money into the patent and very likely has this industry by the balls, so to speak. Or at least people making money from selling extractors. If you have a system that involves washing material with butane, iso, or propane to collect essential oil then use a pump to recover the vaporous solvent back to a collection tank, that's his idea technically. Unless someone has some prior art that dates back to before '99, but I am sure John (Indra) paid lawyers to go and look for it before they filed the patent.
I'm still confused as to whether or not John is responsible for the shuttering of PharmGold, I think that remains to be divulged by GW at a later time. Maybe it's because of their prior "beef" on here that GW described. I would be surprised if that were the case though, I would think companies like Precision, Ironfist, Bhogart and Bizzybee would also be getting letters in the mail as I'm sure they've made way more money off selling extractors than PharmGold at this point in time.
GW, I'm very sorry to hear about PharmGold. I'm glad to be sitting here looking at my recently acquired Vapor Hawg.
it's interesting that he patented the process without making it cannabis specific.
it's not clear to me what is "novel" compared to other industrial extraction processes.
one of the other guys in that episode, Tony V is trying to patent the rick simpson method for curing cancer and every other illness under the sun with his BHO pills.
at least Bubbleman fessed up about who he ripped off there.
I'll bet it's a third party or attorneys chasing down Pharmgold, he alluded to selling part of his interest to a company with enough money to finance the patent enforcement
later in that show or the next week. he made it sound like he could shut down everybody involved in commercial extracts.
it's not clear to me what is "novel" compared to other industrial extraction processes.
one of the other guys in that episode, Tony V is trying to patent the rick simpson method for curing cancer and every other illness under the sun with his BHO pills.
at least Bubbleman fessed up about who he ripped off there.
I'll bet it's a third party or attorneys chasing down Pharmgold, he alluded to selling part of his interest to a company with enough money to finance the patent enforcement
later in that show or the next week. he made it sound like he could shut down everybody involved in commercial extracts.
Foaf certainly seemed to think he created the tech.
(foaf, 2/22/'14)
"Having a clear collection chamber is sweet.
GW, do you know if the Tasummi patent relies on ideas that I put out in public domain initially? They sure can't patent closed or pumping and I published passive with dry ice around 2006 I think, but some of that was at the now gone Overgrow. We have documented postings of all that at thenook.org and that site isn't crawled so they may think they have more than they do.
Since I brought it up, here is the first passive system I know of, posted on Overgrow and thenook 8 or so years ago. It worked great. Modified pressure cooker with neoprene gasket. The condenser had dry ice and acetone in it."
(I can't get the link to the above to post up...)
it's post #8 at 'remraF CHT' (reverse,) in the "Loop Botanicals - Essential Oil Extractor 1.5lb Closed Loop System" thread.
"bho - large scale closed system" ICMAG Forum thread started by foaf on 4/16/'06,
https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=27954
My favorite novel is The Truth Machine by Halperin, what a different world we'd live in if there were 100% accurate truth machines ubiquitously available.
(foaf, 2/22/'14)
"Having a clear collection chamber is sweet.
GW, do you know if the Tasummi patent relies on ideas that I put out in public domain initially? They sure can't patent closed or pumping and I published passive with dry ice around 2006 I think, but some of that was at the now gone Overgrow. We have documented postings of all that at thenook.org and that site isn't crawled so they may think they have more than they do.
Since I brought it up, here is the first passive system I know of, posted on Overgrow and thenook 8 or so years ago. It worked great. Modified pressure cooker with neoprene gasket. The condenser had dry ice and acetone in it."
(I can't get the link to the above to post up...)
it's post #8 at 'remraF CHT' (reverse,) in the "Loop Botanicals - Essential Oil Extractor 1.5lb Closed Loop System" thread.
"bho - large scale closed system" ICMAG Forum thread started by foaf on 4/16/'06,
https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=27954
My favorite novel is The Truth Machine by Halperin, what a different world we'd live in if there were 100% accurate truth machines ubiquitously available.
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"Someone posted it as a thread here not too long ago." Could you post a link? I don't know what terms to search for...
if Erowid is accurate about INDRA describing BHO extraction there in '99 there could have been many different people isolated from each other due to prohibition working to develop a closed loop system on their own by 2006.
because INDRA/JHL kept his patent language free of mentioning weed in any form makes me think it less likely someone on IC discovered it and copied them but you never know.
probably a case of great minds thinking alike.
the way the systems developed on ICmag in open source form is really amazing and I wonder if these unnamed people who shut down Pharmgold will try to take that info down or silence Gray Wolf online.
There are earlier on point patents... just follow the links, and there they are.
"...use of normally gaseous hydrocarbons under temperatures and pressures to maintain the solvents in a liquid state is known in the art. Illustrative prior art patents include Prevost, U.S. Pat. No. 5,707,673; Franke, U.S. Pat. No. 5,525,746; Hebert, U.S. Pat. No. 5,516,923; Benado, U.S. Pat. No. 5,041,245; Rosenthal, U.S. Pat. No. 2,254,245; and Reid, U.S. Pat. No. 1,802,533.
These normally gaseous hydrocarbon solvents, typically propane or butane, can be more easily separated from extracted oils and reduced oil content products than hexane, primarily because of the relatively greater difference in volatility between these normally gaseous hydrocarbon solvents and the extracted oils and reduced oil content products."
"Fig. 4... The vaporized solvent is drawn off through vent 158 and preferably cycled to vapor recovery wherein the solvent vapor is recondensed and reused for subsequent extractions."
http://google.com/patents/US5980964
A funny from the linked patent above concerning acceptable butane residuals: "Solvent removal (de-gassing) was conducted at 30° F. at 12 psia for 120 minutes. Residual butane levels were reduced from an average of 0.162 (wt) % to an average of 0.006 (wt) %" That's 60 ppm.
Or here's one granted in 1931, using butane in a closed loop utilizing temp differential, Tamisium has a patent beyond this?
http://google.com/patents/US1802533
"...use of normally gaseous hydrocarbons under temperatures and pressures to maintain the solvents in a liquid state is known in the art. Illustrative prior art patents include Prevost, U.S. Pat. No. 5,707,673; Franke, U.S. Pat. No. 5,525,746; Hebert, U.S. Pat. No. 5,516,923; Benado, U.S. Pat. No. 5,041,245; Rosenthal, U.S. Pat. No. 2,254,245; and Reid, U.S. Pat. No. 1,802,533.
These normally gaseous hydrocarbon solvents, typically propane or butane, can be more easily separated from extracted oils and reduced oil content products than hexane, primarily because of the relatively greater difference in volatility between these normally gaseous hydrocarbon solvents and the extracted oils and reduced oil content products."
"Fig. 4... The vaporized solvent is drawn off through vent 158 and preferably cycled to vapor recovery wherein the solvent vapor is recondensed and reused for subsequent extractions."
http://google.com/patents/US5980964
A funny from the linked patent above concerning acceptable butane residuals: "Solvent removal (de-gassing) was conducted at 30° F. at 12 psia for 120 minutes. Residual butane levels were reduced from an average of 0.162 (wt) % to an average of 0.006 (wt) %" That's 60 ppm.
Or here's one granted in 1931, using butane in a closed loop utilizing temp differential, Tamisium has a patent beyond this?
http://google.com/patents/US1802533
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No one took Pharmgold down. It was an internal decision.
Lots of difference between squirting butane through a PVC pipe and a closed loop extraction system.
Congratulations on your VaporHawg brother! They are now a prize in their rarity!!!
John had zero to do with Pharmgold deciding to shut their doors. He didn't even contact them. It was Skunk Pharm Research that he decided to antagonize.
Indra tried to silence Skunk Pharm Research, not Pharmgold.
Skunk Pharm Research is a public information site, that is protected by the first ammendment.
I'm glad he wasn't able to silence you or your website!
you've made a huge impact on cleaning up concentrates and making their manufacture safe.
open source is the future and the future is today now that everybody can go online and learn about extraction and distillation.
I can't imagine how hard it would be to make a company like Pharmgold work when you're selling machines that are that complex and expensive.
thanks for clearing things up!
The claims of his patent have little to do with current extraction systems. It specifically uses vacuum to boil liquid in the extraction chamber. Not even remotely close.
I have a half dozen patents of my own so I know the patent system well.
A nice bit of theater by bubbleman to generate drama, nothing else.
My 2c
RB
I have a half dozen patents of my own so I know the patent system well.
A nice bit of theater by bubbleman to generate drama, nothing else.
My 2c
RB
Pastelero
Active member
nope, indra = john ≠bubbleman
Ricky´s Quote "A nice bit of theater by bubbleman to generate drama, nothing else." relates to a HashChurch episode in which Indra showed up.
It´s funny because the cornerstone of extraction tek in the US relies basically on patent infringement.
