I wanted to re-post this because I added in a juicy description taken from DEM's feed (in bold)
Team Microbe's Quest into True Living Organics (2014)
- Thread starter Team Microbe
- Start date
I wanted to re-post this because I added in a juicy description taken from DEM's feed (in bold)
couchlockd
Active member
i too am a fellow TLO'er. and suprisingly my first handfull of years was as you described, from over feeding soiless mix, to battling active hydro, and now resting fat and easy on just add water dynamic.
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couchlockd
Active member
heres the full label of great white.
a few questions,
1.)are you using the spikes, if so volume of spikes and size of pots, as i didn't have good luck a few times with them and stopped doing them. instead i kinda just top dress with some happy frog blend according to stage of growth. like either 5-5-5, or 5-8-4, or 7-4-5
2.)also are you using tlo 2.1 super soil straight up, or cutting it with bagged soil. if so amounts and such.
3.) as far as teas go, if you want i pdf'd all the tea recipes rev posted through out the years in skunk. i mean litterally every last one of the tea articles and recipes. if you want them i'll post them.
4.) heres a little bit of "cant do without's" for tlo, i know the rev has his few, and steers away from any thing else , but yes big blooms is gotta have. also a neat little bottle of super juice called "VERMAPLEX" and another product by Sierra Natural Science called "SNS 604 A and B" and they are not as they sound. they are super light organic super fluids one for vegative and one for flower. although they are pretty damn similar one can use either or i would imagine.
https://www.vermitechnology.com/index.php?ukey=auxpage_19
http://sierranaturalscience.com/products/natural-fertilizers/sns-604a
okay now with the vermaplex i add 5 ml per gallon, thats one capfull. they say to use 120 ml per gallon. so whatever, i like it light, i basically use it at this rate to just even out R/O waters blank ph and whatnot
also with the SNS 604 product i use it at 10ml per gallon , not 14-28 ml per gallon as stated, but the bottle says 14-28 ml per gallon and can be used everytime you water, so i feel at 10ml twice a month or so in teas or at a capfull to a straight gallon is safe, again used in small amounts to just balance out R/O's lack of everything.
also with the big blooms capful per gallon seems to make a better type of watering than plain R/O water.
basically i found that anything organic with super low numbers, and not much or any humic acid, in 1/4 amounts or less are good to add to most all waterings.
i see you wanted a thread for tlo's to learn off each other, so i hope you dont mind my questions , and comments.
nice freaking room design man, jealous.lol
Awesome looking grow mang!!!!!!!! Love the tents, I make them myself as well. I'm about to do a soil run with happy frog and promix, and a dash of DE. I plan on using only the floranova bloom once they hit flower. Is this considered organic? Doesn't make a huge deal to me wither it is or not, just wondering.
Heh, I know you weren't asking me, and I'm about as new to this as TM, but what I CAN tell you is that I have two generations into "TLO", and for the first transplant of generation 1, I didn't spike anything (used mellow mix seedlings trans'd into 2.1 straight up) but also used a high nitrogen top layer AND mulch. This generation starved almost instantly even with addition of compost tea.
In order to attempt a rescue, I did another transplant on generation 1 and put em into some spiked 1 gallons. but the recovery has been marginal after over a week...I still can't seem to feed it enough to bounce back.
The second generation however, even with only one single blade leaf set, I transplanted from seedling flats into spiked (all-purpose veg spike) containers that had an all purpose veg spike on 2 corners, and on the other two corners had spikes with a simple 70:30 worm castings:small nugget perlite. these have been on about a week and a half and are NOT showing any signs of deficiency.
I think the main thing I learned in this first toe-dip into new water is you can easily underestimate the nutritional requirements of a micro universe full of life, vs what u might be used to (what i was used to) which would be just force-feeding one organism.
I'm super new to this too, so glad to see another person diving in!
On my next transplant, based on what I've seen with a fair number of trials here, I'm going to make sure to use the high nitrogen layering blend in conjunction with happy frog (as you mentioned) at about a 1:1 for the bottom layer of the container, as well as use a 4-spike method, only this time i will do 2 high power veg spikes, 1 worm casting spike, and 1 flowering spike. Also going to put in some more happy frog midway through filling up the 2.1. Even during veg, the nutrients in that flowering spike are important according to the book. I just had a long car ride yesterday and re-read it for the second time.
I'd also like to point out, a lot of people really don't agree with that book, especially because I mean the guy's not exactly a degree-toting expert. I have got some pretty heavy flak, for even expressing interest in it some places. There's definitely a typo or two and a serious lack of professional citation, but that's why I wanted to revisit it and I just can't deny that there's a ton of great info and ideas in there to get you thinking about breathing soil mixes. So for now since I'm so new, even though this guy doesn't have a doctorate in rhizospheric microbiology, he sure grows some nice chron and you can't argue with 40 years experience..so I'm going to go TLO style while simultaneously doing some extended readings and just try to find what works by "trowel and error" as they say...
SNS, interesting!
A friend of mine, not doing organic mind you, still found their water-in pesticide formula fantastically effective on gnats. i believe its mainly rosemeric acid, but just considering the smell in my tent and all the bugs that just go along with a living soil mix by nature I was wondering about some more preventative methods that would be friendly to a breathing soil mix.
Please remember, I'm super new to this too, and am only humbly passing along observations from careful reading combined with very little experience in this particular style. Just wanted to also say:
I think the 2.1 purposefully lacks nutrients essential to growth, so some sort of amendment is definitely necessary, especially after watching my poor ladies starve.
As stated in the book, his theory is that you can't add enough extra nutrients that could hypothetically be used by the plant or microbes, by "global" application to a homogenous mix--due to the fact it'll drop the pH down too far throughout the entire pot. makes sense to me, i've sure had problems with global pH in homogenous mixes, even when doing pseudo-organic grows in soil. therefore, i think the spikes are as important as zones in this style, and also contain a lot of what the 2.1 is missing. because you really can't liquid feed these style plants with a ton of N that all those critters need, you really have got to plan ahead.
if i were to cut the 2.1 with anything might be some really fresh worm castings and more small perlite for heavy duty aeration. it's like the microbes need just as much air as the roots so its gotta be double-porous! i kind of planted my whole second generation because i was so anxious to start over from scratch and do a bunch of stuff differently.
I think the 2.1 purposefully lacks nutrients essential to growth, so some sort of amendment is definitely necessary, especially after watching my poor ladies starve.
As stated in the book, his theory is that you can't add enough extra nutrients that could hypothetically be used by the plant or microbes, by "global" application to a homogenous mix--due to the fact it'll drop the pH down too far throughout the entire pot. makes sense to me, i've sure had problems with global pH in homogenous mixes, even when doing pseudo-organic grows in soil. therefore, i think the spikes are as important as zones in this style, and also contain a lot of what the 2.1 is missing. because you really can't liquid feed these style plants with a ton of N that all those critters need, you really have got to plan ahead.
if i were to cut the 2.1 with anything might be some really fresh worm castings and more small perlite for heavy duty aeration. it's like the microbes need just as much air as the roots so its gotta be double-porous! i kind of planted my whole second generation because i was so anxious to start over from scratch and do a bunch of stuff differently.
...and here's what I've got now! xD
(5) Sugarloaf - Cannabiogen
(1) Sharksbreath - DNA Genetics
(1) Skunk 47 - World of Seeds
(2) LA Affie - Cali Connection
I have been dying to grow Sugarloaf forever and here I am messing it up! Hah, learning a lot though. Anyone have ideas how I might bring those loaves back...I think the micro life in there is starving and using up all the plants' food. I don't want to resort to chelates, but I also don't want to throw away something that can bounce back.
I almost tossed this diesel clone that wasn't growing alongside the other clones I'd gotten that day..it was essentially stagnant for weeks, then one day it was like fk it ill just grow i guess and it turned out to be one of my best harvested plants of the round...
(5) Sugarloaf - Cannabiogen
(1) Sharksbreath - DNA Genetics
(1) Skunk 47 - World of Seeds
(2) LA Affie - Cali Connection
I have been dying to grow Sugarloaf forever and here I am messing it up! Hah, learning a lot though. Anyone have ideas how I might bring those loaves back...I think the micro life in there is starving and using up all the plants' food. I don't want to resort to chelates, but I also don't want to throw away something that can bounce back.
I almost tossed this diesel clone that wasn't growing alongside the other clones I'd gotten that day..it was essentially stagnant for weeks, then one day it was like fk it ill just grow i guess and it turned out to be one of my best harvested plants of the round...
man, those budshots were mouth-watering!
We'd need some more info on your soil mix/feeding schedules/type of water you use to help diagnose your sugarloaf problems. Do you have anymore of those to pop by any chance? Yields are diminished if too much stress is induced during the seedling stage (topping at a young age under 4 nodes, burning with nutes, ect) so ask yourself if it's worth the money to keep running these babes. Hopefully we can fix your problem though and get em back on track!
couchlockd
Active member
heres my first grow with tlo style.
heres from the 3rd time tlo
heres from the 3rd time tlo
couchlockd
Active member
more of 3rd time
and the latest which would be round 4 tlo style
i too have gotten shit in places regarding "TLO" methods, and even so with other methods. i use teas, sns604, vermaplex, and big blooms here and there.
base bagged soil used for tlo mix is whatever looks good at the time. usually humboldt, ffof, or roots. roots seems to be the better of the bagged mixes for the base of tlo 2.1 soil
i do stress a tea that is not mentioned in the tlo book, but was in a issue of skunk, its a fungi dominant compost tea for use right at mid point in flower.
it goes like this.
1/2 cup of EWC
1/2 cup mushroom compost
2 tbsp of powdered rolled oats
1 tsp of kelp meal
*mix this all up and make it very wet, and place it in a dark warm area for a few days to a week, until it grows a white fuzzy layer on it, once it does place it in brewer with 2 gal ro water, and an additional tsp of kelp meal and a 1/4 tsp rock phosphate.
brew for 24 hours and strain and apply
this is taken directly from the skunk article. its called "mother mary's fungi dominant compost tea"
i use it religiously one single time at day 30 of flower. also i use it on mothers right after i take cuttings from them sometimes or any kind of heavy stress on the mothers is a good time for fungi dom tea.
and the latest which would be round 4 tlo style
i too have gotten shit in places regarding "TLO" methods, and even so with other methods. i use teas, sns604, vermaplex, and big blooms here and there.
base bagged soil used for tlo mix is whatever looks good at the time. usually humboldt, ffof, or roots. roots seems to be the better of the bagged mixes for the base of tlo 2.1 soil
i do stress a tea that is not mentioned in the tlo book, but was in a issue of skunk, its a fungi dominant compost tea for use right at mid point in flower.
it goes like this.
1/2 cup of EWC
1/2 cup mushroom compost
2 tbsp of powdered rolled oats
1 tsp of kelp meal
*mix this all up and make it very wet, and place it in a dark warm area for a few days to a week, until it grows a white fuzzy layer on it, once it does place it in brewer with 2 gal ro water, and an additional tsp of kelp meal and a 1/4 tsp rock phosphate.
brew for 24 hours and strain and apply
this is taken directly from the skunk article. its called "mother mary's fungi dominant compost tea"
i use it religiously one single time at day 30 of flower. also i use it on mothers right after i take cuttings from them sometimes or any kind of heavy stress on the mothers is a good time for fungi dom tea.
E
Eureka Springs Organics
Mushroom compost in a tea is almost completely crazy. Standard mushroom compost is one of the dirtiest composts you will ever encounter. Worm castings, vermicompost is more than sufficient.
You can do the exact same thing minus the mushroom, but bump up the amount of worm castings to 3-3.5 cups per 5 gallon brew.
The oats are not necessary. Use alfalfa, and kelp meal @ 1/4 cup per 5 gallon brew, and it will do the same thing.
The input rates in that recipe are very low.
But, if it works, no need to change.
The second generation however, even with only one single blade leaf set, I transplanted from seedling flats into spiked (all-purpose veg spike) containers that had an all purpose veg spike on 2 corners, and on the other two corners had spikes with a simple 70:30 worm castings:small nugget perlite. these have been on about a week and a half and are NOT showing any signs of deficiency.
I think the main thing I learned in this first toe-dip into new water is you can easily underestimate the nutritional requirements of a micro universe full of life, vs what u might be used to (what i was used to) which would be just force-feeding one organism.
I'm super new to this too, so glad to see another person diving in!
On my next transplant, based on what I've seen with a fair number of trials here, I'm going to make sure to use the high nitrogen layering blend in conjunction with happy frog (as you mentioned) at about a 1:1 for the bottom layer of the container, as well as use a 4-spike method, only this time i will do 2 high power veg spikes, 1 worm casting spike, and 1 flowering spike. Also going to put in some more happy frog midway through filling up the 2.1. Even during veg, the nutrients in that flowering spike are important according to the book. I just had a long car ride yesterday and re-read it for the second time.
I'd also like to point out, a lot of people really don't agree with that book, especially because I mean the guy's not exactly a degree-toting expert. I have got some pretty heavy flak, for even expressing interest in it some places. There's definitely a typo or two and a serious lack of professional citation, but that's why I wanted to revisit it and I just can't deny that there's a ton of great info and ideas in there to get you thinking about breathing soil mixes. So for now since I'm so new, even though this guy doesn't have a doctorate in rhizospheric microbiology, he sure grows some nice chron and you can't argue with 40 years experience..so I'm going to go TLO style while simultaneously doing some extended readings and just try to find what works by "trowel and error" as they say...
SNS, interesting!
A friend of mine, not doing organic mind you, still found their water-in pesticide formula fantastically effective on gnats. i believe its mainly rosemeric acid, but just considering the smell in my tent and all the bugs that just go along with a living soil mix by nature I was wondering about some more preventative methods that would be friendly to a breathing soil mix.
Great post man. It sounds like you're actually ahead of me now that I read that... I have yet to dive into spikes but I did read all the benefits of them 2 nights ago in Rev's book. I'm experiencing some yellowing in my top shoots now that I'm in the 2nd week of flower, not sure if this is from new growth or a N def. but I bet if I spiked I wouldn't be seeing that! I top dressed with some high N guano around the ring of my pots to feed the microbiology at the top of the soil sucking my plant dry of food lol
and I literally laughed out loud after reading "trowel and error"
GREAT post buddy. I'm not sure of the validity of Eurika's advice concerning the mushroom compost but this touches a lot of what Jeff mentions in Teaming with Microbes. We call this "pre-charging" compost for fungally dom teas since fungi don't multiply but only grow larger in size. I think that's what a lot of growers confuse, they think fungi multiply just like bacteria do....
The kelp is great for bacteria balancing that mix out, and the rock phosphate provides surfaces for fungi to attach and grow on. 1 up.
Also, keep those doses low in your tea. Not trying to start a tiff with you at all Eureka lol, so don't let me come off that way. I did read however that over-doing it on the food will hurt your biology in the sense of keeping it aerobic. 3 cups is too much for 5 gallons IMO, just off personal experience. Eureka could have a vortex brewer or something that puts in high amounts of o2, there are a lot of variables when going from one grower to the next so keep in mind what works best for you is usually the best bet. Cheers guys!
Those nine in the 1 Gal pots are my first generation of transplants (G1)
Soil was originally a mellow seedling mix, 1:1:1 standard organic potting mix:small perlite:rinsed coco fiber, that was for the flats tiny soil volume. This was then transplanted into a 4"x4"x3" square container that had a layer of 2.1 master mix, then a small buffer layer of mellow, then rest mellow mix.
I didn't do the high-N top dressing early on, because I didn't have any mulch at the time, plus they looked amazing. (which rev's all about for blocking harmful light to micros and roots that want to reach up top to make use of full container volume). I added the high-N layer very conservatively being so used to making the overfeeding mistake when I got some composted pine mulch locally.
Here's what they looked like early on:
And then...
After watering...
Close up on the most resilient Sugarloaf of the 5...approximately 10 days ago:
So besides 2.1 mix layer, mellow mix, and the belated high N top dress & mulch...
The only thing I "fed" them was a first-attempt at compost tea, using the "New Roots" TLO pre-made tea from the starter bundle I got. Unfortunately I didn't have any of the recommended additives, like molasses and GO's CaMg+, so I think it may have been of marginal benefit. I was really conservative on any additives, and diluted as instructed.
I think one of my earliest problems was full-room air exchange because I was getting minimal venting due to the fact I was trying to boost the humidity. A little more humid is nice, but not at the cost of significant air exchange I've tentatively concluded.
I also notice rev is a big fan of continual CaMg+ addition if you can keep it below 60 TDS (which my new meter just arrived hurray!) and i've been using all store-bough distilled water i get with my groceries because I can't put down on an RO filter just yet.
I'll snap some pics when I do my daily checkup today, I rearranged some stuff and the whole setup looks really smooth. Currently, as far as "experimental trials go" I've got 4 generations, with the most recent being seedlings which will be transplanted today, G3 are some i did yesterday, and G2 would be my second round (the first spike experiment, a single high N spike in the first transplant stage).
I'll summarize the changes I made to the mix in various generations once I've got some more progress here.
oh yeah, and I've got 2 more CBG breeder fems of the sugarloaf stashed in a safe spot
hmmm... so somewhere between your seedling stage and the transplant/top dressing something went wrong I'm guessing judging by those leaves.
What kind of mulch are you using?
What method did you use to brew the tea with? And how did it smell prior to feeding (sweet, sour, gross)?
I'm wondering if it was the top dressing... that usually needs to be composted into the soil bc they're "hot" so I'm guessing they were burned by the nutes. I only sprinkle a ring around my container and leave the middle untouched under my bark, not sure if you did the entire top dress or a ring but if I had to guess your tea either went anaerobic or they're burned from the N overdose. Your answer will help me figure out which one though
Great insight! It's pine mulch (rather than cedar or walnut). I am 99% sure all of the stuff like spikes etc is pre-cooked, is a big part of the $ in the TLO starter bundle.
Tea smelled fresh and organic like a forest floor. On my reread I noted that it was about 1tbsp (15ml) of top dressing suggested for 1 Gal (I assume thats including consideration of the bottom N layer which I didn't have on G1) I think I used about a teaspoon max on them which is only 1/3 of suggested strength.
Tea smelled fresh and organic like a forest floor. On my reread I noted that it was about 1tbsp (15ml) of top dressing suggested for 1 Gal (I assume thats including consideration of the bottom N layer which I didn't have on G1) I think I used about a teaspoon max on them which is only 1/3 of suggested strength.
