sugars and carbs for flowering??

[spurr]

i know [citric acid] also helps mineralize P in the rhizosphere, correct? i'll just be using it primarily in my foliars though.

Yes, and also in breaking the bond of P-Ca, P-Fe, etc.

i've never thrown citric acid in my compost tea brewer so i can't comment on that.

I have and it didn't affect the microbe counts vs not using citric acid. Many microbes exude citric acid, as well as roots ...

 

[Butte_Creek]

seanseanhen-i only pH my foliar spray solution, so it's effective at being absorbed into leafs. outdoors, i've almost completely stopped having to use liquid fertilizer, besides some molasses, fish, liquid bone meal etc

 

[Butte_Creek]

Citric acid is fine in foliar, but using ascorbic acid, or citric acid and ascorbic acid, is prob the best route to take. Addition of citric acid and/or ascorbic acid (vit. C) to foliar spray should not negativity affect biota in phyllosphere; if one doesn't add a ton of those acids. IIRC both acids, as well as other organic acids, are excreted from roots as exudates. Less than a 1/2 gram per gallon should be sufficient to reduce pH to an ideal range, unless source water is very high in pH or alkalinity.

The ideal pH range for foliar sprays is ~6.5-8 ... of course the solubility of ions (ex., metals) is a concern with pH > ~7.

Both citric acid and ascorbic acid help keep stomata open and stomatal conductance high. And in turn help keep rate of photosynthesis high as well as carbon fixation (Co2 intake) and Ca and B uptake and movement within plant, etc.

Ascorbic acid is an important counter-balance to the endogenous H2O2 produced by leafs during the day (re the antioxidative virtue of ascorbic acid). H2O2 will reduce openness of stomata, and ascorbic acid (i.e., endogenous, or exogenous as foliar) works to nullify the effect of endogenous H2O2. It is also suggest via scientific evidence, that ascorbic acid may work to increase rate of photosynthesis independent upon effect on stomatal openness. Ascorbic acid offers other benefits too as foliar application.

Citric acid is an important counter-balance to reduction in rate of photosynthesis (re "midday depression of photosynthesis" and "photoinhibition"), whereby citric acid decarboxylation
may be an important mechanism for alleviating said ills to keep rate of photosynthesis high. However, there is no definitive data AFAIK, that shows specifically citric acid decarboxylation keeps rate of photosynthesis high in the case of ex., photoinhibition. Citric acid also helps plants in other areas, such as helping to keep stomata open. Citric acid offers other benefits too as foliar application.

Below are a few references:

Increasing Tolerance to Ozone by Elevating Foliar Ascorbic Acid Confers Greater Protection against Ozone Than Increasing Avoidance
Zhong Chen and Daniel R. Gallie
Plant Physiology 138:1673-1689 (2005)


Boosting Vitamin C in Plants Can Help Reduce Smog Damage
University of California - Riverside (2005)
(full text) http://newsroom.ucr.edu/1119

• This article is about the published paper above, entitled "Increasing Tolerance to Ozone by Elevating Foliar Ascorbic Acid Confers Greater Protection against Ozone Than Increasing Avoidance".

The Ascorbic Acid Redox State Controls Guard Cell Signaling and Stomatal Movement
Zhong Chen and Daniel R. Gallie
The Plant Cell 16:1143-1162 (2004)


Stomatal behavior and components of the antioxidative system in coffee plants under water stress
Sidnei Deuner, José Donizeti Alves, Ilisandra Zanandrea, Patrícia de Fátima Pereira Goulart, Neidiquele Maria Silveira, Paôla de Castro Henrique, Alessandro Carlos Mesquita
Sci. agric. (Piracicaba, Braz.) vol.68 no.1 Piracicaba Jan./Feb. 2011


Light and Stomatal Metabolism
Madhusudana Rao and Louise E. Anderson
Plant Physiol. (1983) 71, 456-459


Organic Acid and Potassium Accumulation in Guard Cells during Stomatal Opening
William H. Outlaw and Oliver H. Lowry
Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences of the United States of America
Vol. 74, No. 10 (Oct., 1977), pp. 4434-4438​

wow, thank you. very informative. i just bought some citric acid for my foliars this season, and was debating getting some ascorbic acid as well, but didn't know if i should use them together. sounds like i'll be fine, and will benefit from using both.



spurr- the more i learn about plant science and the soil food web etc the more i realize that a lot of "supplements" are already being provided and produced by either the plant and/or the beneficial microbiology. great stuff. obviously in a conventional salt based grow plant health and biology would be lacking and the presence of some of these supplements like citric acid and molasses would probably be more beneficial, which is what your already saying.

yeah i thought i remembered reading the plant exudes citric acid from it's root to help mineralize P. would you say that the addition of supplemental citric acid in the rhizosphere would be beneficial, or unnecessary(in a compost based organic grow)?

 

[seanseanhen]

Thank you guys for the all the great info, it is much appreciated. Spurr just checked out your fert-mix and it’s prompted me to re-look at my numbers, Higher B for me has always yielded much sturdier stems, what are your reasons for an above average dose. Also what about P at the very end of flowering when stretch has segued into trichome production.
Could you recommend a good source of Ascorbic Acid, would vitamin C suffice or do I need to use mineral ascorbates. Also do you have any info with relation to Ascorbic/ Citiric acid and rubisco activity.

 

[spurr]

wow, thank you. very informative. i just bought some citric acid for my foliars this season, and was debating getting some ascorbic acid as well, but didn't know if i should use them together. sounds like i'll be fine, and will benefit from using both.

Yea it will be fine; just don't got crazy and add a ton

I have (and do) use both for foliar, and I have used both at the same time to lower pH of my aerated-aero cloner rez* and fertilizer mix for plants. FWIW, Mullray posted the ingredients in A.N. Big Bud (maybe an older version) and IIRC it has 1 g/L ascroibc acid and 1 g/L citric acid; I only mention A.N. (a company I dislike) because I haven't heard of anyone unhappy Big Bud due to either of those two organic acids.

* I have tested use of only ascorbic acid to lower pH in my aerated-aero cloner with R/O water and 1 ml per gallon of G.H. Micro, Gro and Bloom, along with fulvic acid. I added a lot of ascrobic acid because I had bad pH drift (upward) from the addition of anti-microbial product. I would think over the period of 5 days I added over a few grams of ascorbic acid to the rez (~15 gallons) of the aerated-aero cloner to keep pH in the ideal range. The clones still got roots in 4-5 days and were ready to transplant in 7-9 days. And the clones where healthy as 'all get out', as usual.

I use a rooting hormone mix from Super-Grow called "Root Tonic" [link] (i.e., IBA @ ~250 ppm and NAA @ ~175 ppm; IIRC) as a 60 second basal end dip after taking cutting, before putting in aerated-areo cloner. FWIW, I do not cut the leafs in half on the newly taken vegetative clones.

​

spurr- the more i learn about plant science and the soil food web etc the more i realize that a lot of "supplements" are already being provided and produced by either the plant and/or the beneficial microbiology. great stuff.

Yup, amazing. I am continually amazed by what media biota, phyllosphere biota, and plants are capable of doing. Especially when they are working as a 'team' (synergistically).

I am kind of a man with a foot in each world: biological-organic growing and conventional growing. I prefer and adhere to an 'organic' paradigm in life, and when growing very much prefer biological-organics. But I need to work with conventional fertilizes, as well as biological-organics, to enable me to carry out many studies I have planned over the next couple of years.

obviously in a conventional salt based grow plant health and biology would be lacking and the presence of some of these supplements like citric acid and molasses would probably be more beneficial, which is what your already saying.

Kind of. I would not suggest in a conventional grow that plant health "would be lacking" as a rule. I would suggest that in nearly any grow plant health can be improved, even if the plants are already in 'good' health.

When using either conventional or biological-organic growing, adding citric acid and molasses will be beneficial, even for the most healthy plant that had not previously been provided either.

The molasses isn't for plant health, per se; and definitely is not to increase aroma, IMO anyway. I am always conservative when I suggest what molasses may do for plants. From what I could find, the topic of plant response to application of molasses specifically, and exogenous sugar/complex carbs generally, is not well studied in academia or other credible and unbiased organization. I do suggest molasses is good for some (many ... most?) media and phyllosphere biota, when not over applied in quantity or applied too often. In the absence of scientific evidence that molasses does all kinds of things for plants, I have little to base an opinion upon, besides upon my and other growers anecdotal evidence (incl. brix levels) and that is something I loath to do.

yeah i thought i remembered reading the plant exudes citric acid from it's root to help mineralize P. would you say that the addition of supplemental citric acid in the rhizosphere would be beneficial, or unnecessary(in a compost based organic grow)?

Many plants do exude citric acid, as do many microbes. However, the amount of citric acid (and citrate) as exudates from roots varies between species, plant health and age, etc. You probably read the info about citric acid and P from a thread of my posts, or posts in reference to those threads, if you read it on Icmag. There are two main threads on citric acid based mostly on my research, and that other IC'ers like VerdantGreen. Both VerdantGreen and I have used citric acid for quite a while, as have other ICers who have posted in those threads and elsewhere. I think it's fairly safe to say citric acid, if nothing else, will lower pH and not hurt the plant (in an obvious manner; incl. Pn).

I have written a lot about citric acid, with full references; but I'm still learning more about it all the time. If you want to find those threads I was referring you can use my nic, or VerdantGreen and the search term "citric".

I would say addition of citric acid would be beneficial, not only to mineralize P from some organic matter, but also for helping keep P soluble by 'bonding' to Ca cations, Al cations, Fe cations, etc.

If you're in the organic soil section, check out grows by VerdantGreen, he and I have been using and researching citric acid for some time. His source water has pH of ~9ish, he adds a decent amount of citric acid.

 

[spurr]

Hi seanseanhen,


I will answer those B and P questions here, but not in-depth because I don't want to derail this thread off-topic. If you ask the question about B here and about P here, I could give a more in-depth responses (if they are needed); and other people are more likely to respond, too.

Spurr just checked out your fert-mix and it’s prompted me to re-look at my numbers, Higher B for me has always yielded much sturdier stems, what are your reasons for an above average dose.

I am unsure to what you are referring. I only started to use 1 ppm B just this week. Before that I had been using ~0.167 ppm B. But I have tried higher ppm than 1, before. That said, 1 ppm isn't high to my understanding and IME; are you referring to higher than 1 ppm? I think up to 2 ppm (max) may be okay at some stages.

My reasons for providing B is for it's role in 'building' cell walls, preventing/reducing toxicities (from some elements), N fixation, benefiting budset/formation, as well as other reasons. The role of B in cell wall formation may account for the "sturdier stems" you notice.

Also what about P at the very end of flowering when stretch has segued into trichome production.

I am unsure what you are asking. Maybe expand on that question in the 'P myth is a myth' thread?

Could you recommend a good source of Ascorbic Acid, would vitamin C suffice or do I need to use mineral ascorbates. Also do you have any info with relation to Ascorbic/ Citiric acid and rubisco activity.

Vitamin C (L-ascorbic acid) is the same thing as ascorbic acid; I think the difference in name is due to referring to nutrition or chemistry (respectively).

I get my ascorbic acid at a (almost) local beer brewing and wine fermenting shop. Along with citric acid.

I do not have info with respect to citric acid and Rubisco, from a credible source. Citric acid is imporant in the "Krebs cycle" though (aka "citric acid cycle" and "Tricarboxylic Acid Cycle"). IIRC, at one point I thought exogenous citric acid (ex., as foliar spray) would affect Rubisco, more directly than indirectly; but I am not sure if that's true.

I have read one study that found AsA (ascrobic acid) reduced Rubisco, but I haven't found much other work on the topic. Granted, I haven't looked into it far, but I will tomorrow. What is odd, though, is (I believe in most cases) H2O2 reduces Rubisco and AsA reduces H2O2 (being that AsA is an antioxidant); that seems to suggest AsA would help reduce/prevent Rubisco loss.

 

[tester]

Ascorbic acid is vitamin C

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vitamin_C

 

[spurr]

Hey tester,

Good point, thanks. I posted late last night and should have proof read. I was thinking L-ascorbic acid and ascorbic acid were not the same thing, but they are, as you pointed out.

I wonder why it's rereferred to by L-ascorbic acid and ascorbic acid. IIRC there is also a d-ascorbic acid, but that's not sold or used most (all?) of the time.

 

[pufferfish]

hay guys im kinda new to this...my buds are lose..small..very lil smell ....so just add the black strap molasses to my mix ?

These Nutrients & Supplements are mixed into 4 separate mixes. One mix for each stage of the plant's life.
Growth Mix- Grow Big & Big Bloom.
1st Bloom Mix- Tiger Bloom,Big Bloom,Open Sesame.
2nd Bloom Mix- Tiger Bloom, Big Bloom,Grow Big &
Beasty Bloom.
3rd Bloom Mix- Tiger Bloom, Big Bloom, Cha-Ching.

~Mix for Growth/(24 Hour Light Cycle)- per Gallon~
#1.Grow Big Soil = 3 teaspoons
#2.Big Bloom = 2 tablespoon

~Mix's for Bloom/(12/12 Light Cycle)- per Gallon~
#1. Grow Big Soil = 3 teaspoons
#2. Big Bloom = 1 table-spoon
#3. Tiger Bloom = 2 teaspoons
#4. Open Sesame = 1/2 teaspoon
#5. Beasty Bloom = 1/2 teaspoon
#6. Cha-Ching = 1/2 teaspoon

 

[Butte_Creek]

pufferfish-i'd first recommend looking into acquiring new genetics.

unless your absolutely sure your genetics is not what's lacking, i'd recommend if your getting small loose smell-less flowers make it easier on your self until you get the results your looking for by just using FF 3 part: big bloom, grow big, and tiger bloom. wait to use the bloom boosters until you dial in the 3 main bottles. keep it simple, start adding supplements slowly.
just a suggestion.

but yes, add molasses at 1 tsp a gallon, it'd probably be beneficial.

make sure you also let the flowers mature, check trichomes with a small scope. early flowers will be loose and less aromatic.

 

[orange juice]

regarding molasses as a bloom booster I found this-

"Molasses contains a complex sugar called sucrose. This sugar does NOT substitute as a flowering enhancer in hydroponic gardening. Sucrose cannot be transferred through a plants cell membrane and therefore can not be used by the plant for cellular production. Other substitute "sugar boosters" for hydroponics contain Deoxyribose, Lyxose, Ribose, Xylulose, and Xylose. These simple and complex carbohydrates are the main components of cellular reproduction. These carbohydrates deliver an immediately usable form of energy to the plant; which would normally rely on a soil-type organic medium for beneficial microbial activity"

I use it for the soil (especially when I add BTi to keep gnats away) and it's great, but I don't think it'll do much in way of adding cards or whatever directly to the plant.

 

[mg75]

regarding molasses as a bloom booster I found this-

"Molasses contains a complex sugar called sucrose. This sugar does NOT substitute as a flowering enhancer in hydroponic gardening. Sucrose cannot be transferred through a plants cell membrane and therefore can not be used by the plant for cellular production. Other substitute "sugar boosters" for hydroponics contain Deoxyribose, Lyxose, Ribose, Xylulose, and Xylose. These simple and complex carbohydrates are the main components of cellular reproduction. These carbohydrates deliver an immediately usable form of energy to the plant; which would normally rely on a soil-type organic medium for beneficial microbial activity"

I use it for the soil (especially when I add BTi to keep gnats away) and it's great, but I don't think it'll do much in way of adding cards or whatever directly to the plant.

are those the ingredients in AN carboload?

 

[Butte_Creek]

orange juice-that is from wikipedia, be careful... i'd be very weary to read to much into that.

mg75-i thought the same thing, it sounded strangely close to a carboload/rosebud advertisement. i think AN might of added a bit of their "scientific" discoveries to wikipedia. very interesting if true. i'm gonna do a few google searches on b vitamins and plant additives see what i can find.

 

[desertsquirrel]

Nice thread. Im also of the camp that plants cannot uptake sugars, but there are several other reasons to use them as have been pointed out..

Just wanted to add that bacteria can not synthesize Sucrose either, only glucose (the main plant exude). Fungi however can.

 

[forty]

why is "blackstrap" considered superior to other types of molasses for our plants/teas? seems blackstrap may have higher amounts of micro nutrients but less sugars?

The highest grade, pure molasses - like Grandma's - is made from 100% pure, natural sugarcane juices, clarified, reduced, and blended to get just the right color and consistency. But there's difference in grades of molasses.

The purest molasses is pure cane juice. If a manufacturer wants sugar, the cane juice will be processed. The result is a raw sugar and low purity molasses. But Grandma's Original Molasses (Gold Label) is the original, high purity, unprocessed cane juice without any sugar extraction. In manufacturing raw sugar, after the cane has been harvested and mashed, the raw juices are boiled to extract sugar. To produce table sugar, the manufacturer will further process raw sugar into refined sugar. The remaining syrup - after the sugar has been crystallized - is called first molasses. Grandma's Robust Molasses (Green Label) is a blend of first molasses. First molasses, a thick brown syrup, is then thinned with water and re-boiled so that more raw sugar can be extracted.

The leftover syrup from the second boiling is second molasses, and so on. The more boiling you have, the less sweet molasses becomes until you get down to three or more boilings. By this time, the molasses known as "blackstrap" has almost no sweetness, but the highest nutritional value.

 

[farmdalefurr]

has anyone ever used big swell from aurora innovations(soul synthetics)? its seems to be mostly molasses. i got a free sample from work and was thinking about trying it out.