Never argue with a fool - they will drag you down to their level, then beat you with experience
Tea critisism please??
- Thread starter SONNN
- Start date
T
Toes.
Now im curious about the difference between kelp extract and seaweed extract. Is there a difference?
OO, thanks for throwing that poo under the scope for me.
OO, thanks for throwing that poo under the scope for me.
O
OrganicOzarks
No problem on looking at the poo. It was actually pretty damn interesting to see it close up.
I am out of the seaweed discussion. The others are going to have to continue on with that one.
My suggestion is try multiple products, and pick the one that works best.
Toes
There is no such thing as 'kelp extract' in spite of our grow store advocate's claims.
"Seaweed Extract" can be made using these methods:
1. Potassium or Sodium Hydroxide - these Alkaloids are used to cremate human remains. Remember back in grade school having a teacher tell you that if you took all of the Elements (Periodic Table) in the human body it would be worth about $2.00? Burn away EVERYTHING containing biological results in the family being able to keep Grandpa's remains sitting in an urn on the mantel - there's nothing to 'rot' or decompose.
A better example is BioAg and their humic and fulvic acid products. One of their products is a combination of Humic acid and 'powdered seaweed extract' - if there was anything alive in the extract combined with the Humic acid don't you think that this would have an extremely short shelf life?
So would I.
What OrganicOrzarks is attempting to do is to take the blurb from ASL (indirectly to his 'special supplier') and their modification of applying one of these hydroxides. I posted the f*cking link to the USDA NOP regulation on what can be used but of course he wants to talk about 'proprietary processes' and 'special conversations with the owner' and so on.
2. Another extraction process allows is mechanical which came about from the application for registration from KELPAK which is based in South Africa. Maxicrop and ASL harvest their kelp fronds in the North Atlantic and pull the species Ascophyllum nodosum and KELPAK harvests the South Atlantic species Ecklonia Maxima
3. Then there is another kelp product (not seaweed extract) out of Canada called KELPGROW and they harvest the off of the coast of British Columbia called Macrocystis Integrifolia
This product is kelp fronds that are ground to a consistent size, mixed with water and because it's alive you must stop the natural fermentation and they do that by adding Phosphoric acid
4. I asked about Eco-Nutrients specifically because there is a provision under the NOP Rules governing marine algaes and other plant materials that if you're using certain types of fermenting agents like lactobacillus (EM-1 for example) or tropical enzymes (papain and/or bromelain) then you do not have to register your product. You still have to list the Active Ingredients on the label and that's where the grow store gunk get's screwed - 'truth in labeling' which they abhor and hate.
That leads to the indicators that you're dealing with a sock-puppet or shill:
1. This is processed using a proprietary method from a famous university in (fill in the blank)
2. I talked with the owners and they assured me that (fill in the blank)
3. And my all time favorite: I was at an IGE show and I met the owners and they gave me the background on why their products work so well
IGE - Indoor Garden Expo - held all over the country with the big one in Las Vegas each year. Talk about a freak fair.
The reason that OrganicOzarks wants to play the 'proprietary processing' card is from the simple fact that anything sold at a nursery must be registered with EPA and USDA and FDA and when I mentioned that, once again OrganicOzarks plays the cards "I know what goes on in Oregon because yada, yada, yada" - these are federal agencies not state. Funny that, eh?
When a product is registered the information is entered into the specific agency's database and another which is shared among any state or federal agency. This is done so that if little Billy Bob drinks or eats this or that, the medical staff at the hospital will have the necessary information to begin treatment.
"Sorry ma'am - things don't look good for your kid. What he has in his stomach is 'proprietary' and filled with 'special stuff' for growing dank so basically you're f*cked!"
Think that happens?
So back to your choices: Kelp extract does not exist. Powdered seaweed extract is biologically dead - even if you add it to water (like Maxicrop) and call it 'liquified seaweed extract' it's hydrated powder.
The Kelp slurry product (KELPGROW) is adulterated with Phosphoric acid. See Microbeman on why that's an important consideration respective to ecto fungi.
KELPAK is adulterated, IMHO, because they just couldn't leave the raw material alone - they add synthetic IBA and IAA compounds. Not interested.
So we're back to kelp meal - unadulterated, unprocessed, raw.
And cheap if you buy it anywhere other than Hydro Heaven - farm stores are your best option. Of all the kelp meal bagged for distribution, the amount that ends up in a soil is miniscule. The overwhelming majority ends up in livestock feed supplements, hi-end pet foods, Nori (ASL is the world's largest producer of Nori and Japan is their largest customer), HABA, bio-mecical agents, etc.
There's the deal on Kelp meal vs. Powdered Seaweed Extract
Oranges vs. Tang
There is no such thing as 'kelp extract' in spite of our grow store advocate's claims.
"Seaweed Extract" can be made using these methods:
1. Potassium or Sodium Hydroxide - these Alkaloids are used to cremate human remains. Remember back in grade school having a teacher tell you that if you took all of the Elements (Periodic Table) in the human body it would be worth about $2.00? Burn away EVERYTHING containing biological results in the family being able to keep Grandpa's remains sitting in an urn on the mantel - there's nothing to 'rot' or decompose.
A better example is BioAg and their humic and fulvic acid products. One of their products is a combination of Humic acid and 'powdered seaweed extract' - if there was anything alive in the extract combined with the Humic acid don't you think that this would have an extremely short shelf life?
So would I.
What OrganicOrzarks is attempting to do is to take the blurb from ASL (indirectly to his 'special supplier') and their modification of applying one of these hydroxides. I posted the f*cking link to the USDA NOP regulation on what can be used but of course he wants to talk about 'proprietary processes' and 'special conversations with the owner' and so on.
2. Another extraction process allows is mechanical which came about from the application for registration from KELPAK which is based in South Africa. Maxicrop and ASL harvest their kelp fronds in the North Atlantic and pull the species Ascophyllum nodosum and KELPAK harvests the South Atlantic species Ecklonia Maxima
3. Then there is another kelp product (not seaweed extract) out of Canada called KELPGROW and they harvest the off of the coast of British Columbia called Macrocystis Integrifolia
This product is kelp fronds that are ground to a consistent size, mixed with water and because it's alive you must stop the natural fermentation and they do that by adding Phosphoric acid
4. I asked about Eco-Nutrients specifically because there is a provision under the NOP Rules governing marine algaes and other plant materials that if you're using certain types of fermenting agents like lactobacillus (EM-1 for example) or tropical enzymes (papain and/or bromelain) then you do not have to register your product. You still have to list the Active Ingredients on the label and that's where the grow store gunk get's screwed - 'truth in labeling' which they abhor and hate.
That leads to the indicators that you're dealing with a sock-puppet or shill:
1. This is processed using a proprietary method from a famous university in (fill in the blank)
2. I talked with the owners and they assured me that (fill in the blank)
3. And my all time favorite: I was at an IGE show and I met the owners and they gave me the background on why their products work so well
IGE - Indoor Garden Expo - held all over the country with the big one in Las Vegas each year. Talk about a freak fair.
The reason that OrganicOzarks wants to play the 'proprietary processing' card is from the simple fact that anything sold at a nursery must be registered with EPA and USDA and FDA and when I mentioned that, once again OrganicOzarks plays the cards "I know what goes on in Oregon because yada, yada, yada" - these are federal agencies not state. Funny that, eh?
When a product is registered the information is entered into the specific agency's database and another which is shared among any state or federal agency. This is done so that if little Billy Bob drinks or eats this or that, the medical staff at the hospital will have the necessary information to begin treatment.
"Sorry ma'am - things don't look good for your kid. What he has in his stomach is 'proprietary' and filled with 'special stuff' for growing dank so basically you're f*cked!"
Think that happens?
So back to your choices: Kelp extract does not exist. Powdered seaweed extract is biologically dead - even if you add it to water (like Maxicrop) and call it 'liquified seaweed extract' it's hydrated powder.
The Kelp slurry product (KELPGROW) is adulterated with Phosphoric acid. See Microbeman on why that's an important consideration respective to ecto fungi.
KELPAK is adulterated, IMHO, because they just couldn't leave the raw material alone - they add synthetic IBA and IAA compounds. Not interested.
So we're back to kelp meal - unadulterated, unprocessed, raw.
And cheap if you buy it anywhere other than Hydro Heaven - farm stores are your best option. Of all the kelp meal bagged for distribution, the amount that ends up in a soil is miniscule. The overwhelming majority ends up in livestock feed supplements, hi-end pet foods, Nori (ASL is the world's largest producer of Nori and Japan is their largest customer), HABA, bio-mecical agents, etc.
There's the deal on Kelp meal vs. Powdered Seaweed Extract
Oranges vs. Tang
...or for the kids that aren't familiar with the fantastic astronaut drink of the 70's 'Tang'...it's like orange Kool-aid vs. oranges....then again some 80% of kids these dayz would rather have orange Kool-aid than a fresh orange....
I guess you could say it's personal choice.....or maybe what kind of parents you had as a youth and what purchases they made at the grocery store.
....the biologically 'welcoming' material option suites some more than others.
Zdub7k
Member
add a microbe source bro...try some ewc and humus at about 1 cup total per gallon..half cup of each..I use ancient forest from the grow shop and humus and manure from Home Depot....seems to work well for me..I usually put 12-16 different ingredients in mine, but I do nutrients and microbe teas
Yeah...dude...
Hey Coot..have you heard of this 'seaweed extract'....found a bunch just sitting on a shelf for 2 bucks a bottle.
http://www.growmore.com/productpages/seaweed.html
Hey Coot..have you heard of this 'seaweed extract'....found a bunch just sitting on a shelf for 2 bucks a bottle.
http://www.growmore.com/productpages/seaweed.html
T
Toes.
Prof. Cootz, thank you sir.
Phosphoric acid was in the fish fertilizer i just threw away. It wasnt on the label... but i found it in their MSDS. Along with Sulfric acid.
Thanks for keeping it real CC.
Phosphoric acid was in the fish fertilizer i just threw away. It wasnt on the label... but i found it in their MSDS. Along with Sulfric acid.
Thanks for keeping it real CC.
You're welcome and you are to be congratulated for reading labels - pretty enlightening isn't it?
CC
CC
Toes
Here's another way to find a MSDS which the grow store industry tries as hard as they can to hide these documents.
Hit Google (or whatever search engine you use) and type in the name of the product and simply add MSDS to the text string as in 'Billy Bob's Grow Stuff MSDS and you're there.
These are public documents and cannot, by law, be withheld to anyone who wants to review them.
Again you'll find 3 filings - USDA, FDA and EPA
CC
Here's another way to find a MSDS which the grow store industry tries as hard as they can to hide these documents.
Hit Google (or whatever search engine you use) and type in the name of the product and simply add MSDS to the text string as in 'Billy Bob's Grow Stuff MSDS and you're there.
These are public documents and cannot, by law, be withheld to anyone who wants to review them.
Again you'll find 3 filings - USDA, FDA and EPA
CC
Lol......dude.....
In the USA, a product can be registered as 'organic' even if it isn't a cultivated crop - like Yucca for example.
Some countries (as in where the adults are in charge) their laws require 'wild harvested' which is more accurate perhaps.
Touching isn't it?
Some countries (as in where the adults are in charge) their laws require 'wild harvested' which is more accurate perhaps.
Touching isn't it?
If they did not put phosphoric acid in there you would be experiencing exploding bottles or running for the puke bucket inbetween gardening sessions. Having both phosphoric acid and sulphuric acid is overkill and sounds fishy.
I usually look for the 3% max phosphoric acid stabilizer.
...or the ever popular 'wild crafted'....sounds cool too.
Butt Hairs harvested from Tanzanian Jacking Apes is such a product - 'wild crafted' but still mainly harvested from a special ape cage at San Diego Zoo.
Bring an umbrella......
Bring an umbrella......
Cyat
Here's the MSDS as filed by BioBizz (We Create Nature!) from The Netherlands.
70% water which isn't the big strike agains it - they're using Green Marine Algae (seaweed) and the green varieties are completey and totally lacking in the main compounds found in the brown varieties. Brown kelp sits near the surface and the green grows below.
This affects the benefits in major ways - Alginic acid, Mannitol and Fucoidan which are found in all brown species but are completely and totally lacking in the green & red marine algaes.
So you're starting with 70% water with a base material that lacks about 60% of the reason to use kelp in the first place. Then there's the price (MSRP) - $270.00 for 10 liters. Pretty good return on their investment, eh?
Kelp meal is around $1.25 per lb. One pound of kelp meal will make 40 gallons of ready-to-use kelp meal tea.
Then there's the factor that green kelp is now coming primarily from the South China Sea and processed there and then shipped in 55-gallon of barrels all over the world. See Alibaba.com for a better idea on what's going on.
HTH
CC
Here's the MSDS as filed by BioBizz (We Create Nature!) from The Netherlands.
70% water which isn't the big strike agains it - they're using Green Marine Algae (seaweed) and the green varieties are completey and totally lacking in the main compounds found in the brown varieties. Brown kelp sits near the surface and the green grows below.
This affects the benefits in major ways - Alginic acid, Mannitol and Fucoidan which are found in all brown species but are completely and totally lacking in the green & red marine algaes.
So you're starting with 70% water with a base material that lacks about 60% of the reason to use kelp in the first place. Then there's the price (MSRP) - $270.00 for 10 liters. Pretty good return on their investment, eh?
Kelp meal is around $1.25 per lb. One pound of kelp meal will make 40 gallons of ready-to-use kelp meal tea.
Then there's the factor that green kelp is now coming primarily from the South China Sea and processed there and then shipped in 55-gallon of barrels all over the world. See Alibaba.com for a better idea on what's going on.
HTH
CC
T
Toes.
The fish fertilizer claimed it was "derived from hydrolyzed fish vicera"
I saw the word "hydrolyzed" and jumped for joy. I should have known better however, because it was sold as fish emulsion.
I'm still on the hunt for a locally sourced hydrolyzed fish product... I hate to pay for shipping on anything. Thank you MicrobeMan, your a fountain of knowledge. along with Cootz you guys should charge tuition.
Aren't we?
Is there no Organic Gem or Neptune's available in your area?
T
Toes.
Neptune's Harvest... if it's worth a shot. I've always written it off as over priced hydro store decorations...
another $15K I can't pay back...<---- lol
