Sweet leaf vs mk vs bhogart

[Gray Wolf]

Extraction is all about dissolving and or vibrating those molecules to free them into a mobile liquid solution to carry them away from the solid matter they were stuck in. Added heat increases vibration. In SCFE Super critical creates the same space between those molecules to make them mobile but at a much higher price. Super critical can be achieved with just about any solvent. It is not exclusive to CO2. It is a by product of CO2 being a sublimating solvent requiring high pressure to be effective.
The next factor is polarity which allows molecules with matching polarity that have an affinity for each other to bond just strong enough to come out together as they travel around and through plant matter and filters. The bond is weak enough to allow them to be freed apart with vibration again. Added heat. Vacuum does not create the same vibration as heat. Neither does Super Critical. It is a relative vibration. If you drew a line between frequencies vacuum would be on the other side than heat. In other words you cannot melt with a vacuum. You can melt with heat. However when using a loop process,,, by definitiion,,, you have to add time and then you can dissolve. So if the solvent and the thing you are trying to avoid match polarity added time will allow that solvent to dissolve that wax out. Hence the need to freeze that wax even more decreasing its vibratory state. But time with polarity will win if allowed enough time. So what do they do. Make it colder. WTF. Why not just avoid the time and increase production. If you are not looping then this is easy.
Cold freezes relative compounds and decreases vibration to avoid things, So does speed or low contact time. Heat frees melts and increases a solvents ability to dissolve more quickly decreasing contact time for faster extractions. It is all very dynamic but one thing is for sure. IF you cannot control time temp and polarity it is like having a car missing a break, throttle or transmission. And if you dont have a properly designed system it is missing the engine and the fuel. When I say control I mean use them when you need them and shut them off when you need them to be off.

I've used the Tamisium TE-175's and agree that it is a well made system, but failed to observe an edge it might have on a Lil Terp, or Sweetleaf.

I confess to never having run a BHOgart passively for comparison.

As you bring up polarity, temperature, and vacuum, may we look at that in more detail?

Theories aside, our playing field is using butane with a dielectric constant of around 1.4 and propane at around 1.6, changes in mixture don't make a huge difference in polarity.

Since ya'll have studied it so extensively, will you share the dielectric constants of the mono and diterpenes involved that demonstrate your point?

For the purpose of this discussion, I do know that Terpineol has a dielectric constant of around 2.7, Limonene around 2.3 and Pinene around 2.7.

Paraffin is about 2.1 to 2.5, candalilla plant waxes at 2.5 to 2.63, and carnauba plant waxes at 2.9.

https://www.kabusa.com/Dilectric-Constants.pdf

With dielectric constants clustered so close together and the polarity of butane and propane solvents so close, it's hard for me to see profound effects in selectivity.

Whether the molecules are vibrating in place or skittering around like a cut calf looking for an exit, heat clearly does increase molecular activity.

As the temperature drops, so does molecular activity, ceasing around zero kelvin. The higher boiling point constituents being the first to stop all activity, and the most sluggish in dissolving in a solvent at a given temperature.

What dropping the temperature during extraction does, is capitalize on this difference in dissolution rates, grabbing a higher ratio of the lower melting point constituents.

What reducing the atmospheric pressure does, is reduce the forces keeping the molecules from escaping the surface when they hit at varous angles, instead of ricocheting off it it, like they do the sides and bottom of the container.

There is about 14.7 pounds per spare inch of atmospheric pressure at sea level, preventing bubbles of vapor from forming and escaping the surface.

Saying it differently, it takes 14.7 psi less energy on the part of the molecule, if you take away the atmospheric pressure suppressing it, so it boils at a temperature closer to its melt point, vis a vis boiling point under standard conditions.

I admire someone who believes in his product, especially if they can support their opinions with hard data enlightening the rest of us'ns kindred spirits, sooo I'll do my part to support your effort by starting a separate thread, that doesn't clutter up a thread comparing BHOgart and Sweetleaf.

Instead, I'll start a thread comparing Tamisium and a Lil Terp, passive system, where perhaps the comparison is more direct, and you can point out how your system is better and more effective.

May we agree that the fish trap exists only for the fish, so may we also agree that the measure should be of the fish, caught in a safe sane manner?

 

[Tamisium]

beat that dead horse buddy. What you said about propane is completely false.......great explanation on looping tho, i don't think it's common practice any more.....

Extracting lavender or any of the other plants/herbs which were your biomass is quite different than making a dadable cannabis product. Tamisium has only been a successful extractor bc of innovators in the cannabis industry NOT doing what you recommended. Only then was quality product poured out of a tami.

False in what way?? It does have higher pressure, does create a faster flow and does reduce contact time. How is that false??
And you do have to use a RRM to recover it unless you have a way to chill it to -55F. Which is possible but not practical.
It serves no purpose if you know how to increase the speed of a more practical to recover solvent like butane.

Being able to extract from any plant is hardly a problem that prevents education. I would not use that as a point in reference. I would say it would round you off pretty well. There are many oil bearing plants that requires the same technique. That is exactly why and how I taught these guys to produce the products they produced. I do not know of anyone that has not done what I recommended if not for anything but a test to see what not to do.
Oil wax tar and chlorophyll is about the same in all plants. The method for dealing with them in one plant is very similar if not exactly the same in all plants. The plants I extracted from presented much larger hurdles than separating non polar compounds from non polar compounds but simple isomerization techniques solves most of the mj industry problems but they choose techniques that I do not recommend which are more costly and dangerous.. So you are ironically correct. But they are learning to move on to better methods.
I recommend based out acid washes such as can be found in the book Phychedelic Chemistry, or centrifuge, rotary evaporation distillation. I must say that most do not care to go that far and buy that equipment and have cumbersomely found other alternatives but I would not say that choosing to use "dewaxing columns", as they call it, means they are pioneering anything. There are faster, cheaper higher yielding methods than that. No reputable lab would put to use those archaic techniques. A dewaxing column is a byproduct of looping or adding time to the process and we all agree that going faster would be better.

I have never extracted from lavender for money. I only chose it as an example to demonstrate basic extractor operation nearly 5 years ago. I could have used dirt and accomplished the same goal. Does that make sense? Lavendar oil is a non polar oil and demonstrating how to extract it was not the point. It was about how the process worked. Later demonstrating how to clean it with AC was something you could have used but I dont think you got that.

Thanks for stating that quality product was poured out of a tamisium though. I hardly think that anyone can do anything with the apparatus I created that I have not done myself already in regards to controlling the machine so thank for the compliment. The products they put in and get out are their own. I take no credit because it could not have been done without their hands and willingness to perform those extractions. I dont know of one customer that would take all the credit for that nor would I.
It is the extractor that I created that allowed them to succeed but they succeeded in that process to their own rights. If they want to credit me or my extractor makes no difference except for the fact that I would be stoked to hear it.
I would like to thank all my customers for turning a lot of theory into fact and I would also like to thank my competitors for showing the world how to do exactly what we decided not to do 10 years ago, and why..
A lot of changes are going to be made in 2016.

 

[Gray Wolf]

False in what way?? It does have higher pressure, does create a faster flow and does reduce contact time. How is that false??
And you do have to use a RRM to recover it unless you have a way to chill it to -55F. Which is possible but not practical.
It serves no purpose if you know how to increase the speed of a more practical to recover solvent like butane.

Being able to extract from any plant is hardly a problem that prevents education. I would not use that as a point in reference. I would say it would round you off pretty well. There are many oil bearing plants that requires the same technique. That is exactly why and how I taught these guys to produce the products they produced. I do not know of anyone that has not done what I recommended if not for anything but a test to see what not to do.
Oil wax tar and chlorophyll is about the same in all plants. The method for dealing with them in one plant is very similar if not exactly the same in all plants. The plants I extracted from presented much larger hurdles than separating non polar compounds from non polar compounds but simple isomerization techniques solves most of the mj industry problems but they choose techniques that I do not recommend which are more costly and dangerous.. So you are ironically correct. But they are learning to move on to better methods.
I recommend based out acid washes such as can be found in the book Phychedelic Chemistry, or centrifuge, rotary evaporation distillation. I must say that most do not care to go that far and buy that equipment and have cumbersomely found other alternatives but I would not say that choosing to use "dewaxing columns", as they call it, means they are pioneering anything. There are faster, cheaper higher yielding methods than that. No reputable lab would put to use those archaic techniques. A dewaxing column is a byproduct of looping or adding time to the process and we all agree that going faster would be better.

I have never extracted from lavender for money. I only chose it as an example to demonstrate basic extractor operation nearly 5 years ago. I could have used dirt and accomplished the same goal. Does that make sense? Lavendar oil is a non polar oil and demonstrating how to extract it was not the point. It was about how the process worked. Later demonstrating how to clean it with AC was something you could have used but I dont think you got that.

Thanks for stating that quality product was poured out of a tamisium though. I hardly think that anyone can do anything with the apparatus I created that I have not done myself already in regards to controlling the machine so thank for the compliment. The products they put in and get out are their own. I take no credit because it could not have been done without their hands and willingness to perform those extractions. I dont know of one customer that would take all the credit for that nor would I.
It is the extractor that I created that allowed them to succeed but they succeeded in that process to their own rights. If they want to credit me or my extractor makes no difference except for the fact that I would be stoked to hear it.
I would like to thank all my customers for turning a lot of theory into fact and I would also like to thank my competitors for showing the world how to do exactly what we decided not to do 10 years ago, and why..
A lot of changes are going to be made in 2016.

Anything to share on the thread I opened for the purpose? Ostensibly it should be easier for the readers to find than on a thread titled Sweetleaf vs Mk vs BHOgard.

https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=317477

 

[thehoil]

beat that dead horse buddy. What you said about propane is completely false.......great explanation on looping tho, i don't think it's common practice any more.....

Extracting lavender or any of the other plants/herbs which were your biomass is quite different than making a dadable cannabis product. Tamisium

Firstly....hope you had a good Christmas!

Just wanted to add a few comments here, because I feel you're making false comments when you say that " has only been a successful extractor bc of innovators in the cannabis industry NOT doing what you recommended. Only then was quality product poured out of a tami."

I bought my first and only (for now) closed extractor from David about 4 months ago (TE700) at first I was a bit overwhelmed...not because I scared to use it, but more to do with the fact that although simple looking; there was soo much I can do with it, but didn't know how. So, I spent a lot of nights talking with David on the phone asking questions and looking for guidance....if it wasn't for him I'd be a bit behind...guys like David and Tamisum are Innovators....a lot of extraction fabricators took his design and tried to make it Thier own...some even attribute Thier design to Tamisum . Anything he said his product can do...if the does..plain and simple.

Today I not only make some of the best dabable oil as you call it, but I'm also very efficient with my time and resources. I can recover 1500 grams of R600 N Butane in 28 min with dry ice....amazing...my friend has another system that incorporates a pump and he's not even recovering as fast as I. ...did I mention I use only one recovery tank? Everything David has told me is true....I've added some of my own process to his, so I can make what I want...exactly how I want it...but the base extraction and recovery process is the same....

From grinding to packing to extracting and recovery.....in the oven in less than 1 hour!

By no means hating...just providing an honest perspective in to what a Tamisum extractor can do.

Cheers

 

[Permacultuure]

That's great you pumping out good product. You say you bought your tami 4 months ago. I can remember around two plus years ago sitting in Carla's livings room (skunk pharm) while she was being thanked over and over again by an extractor who had the 25k tami. She gave him simple advice, and turned his failing investment into a profitable endeavor.

David is very well educated on herbal extractions, but the pointers he is giving you were derived from users in the field...for years he told people how to make dark full extract oil, not dabable.....

 

[Gray Wolf]

Firstly....hope you had a good Christmas!

Just wanted to add a few comments here, because I feel you're making false comments when you say that " has only been a successful extractor bc of innovators in the cannabis industry NOT doing what you recommended. Only then was quality product poured out of a tami."

I bought my first and only (for now) closed extractor from David about 4 months ago (TE700) at first I was a bit overwhelmed...not because I scared to use it, but more to do with the fact that although simple looking; there was soo much I can do with it, but didn't know how. So, I spent a lot of nights talking with David on the phone asking questions and looking for guidance....if it wasn't for him I'd be a bit behind...guys like David and Tamisum are Innovators....a lot of extraction fabricators took his design and tried to make it Thier own...some even attribute Thier design to Tamisum . Anything he said his product can do...if the does..plain and simple.

Today I not only make some of the best dabable oil as you call it, but I'm also very efficient with my time and resources. I can recover 1500 grams of R600 N Butane in 28 min with dry ice....amazing...my friend has another system that incorporates a pump and he's not even recovering as fast as I. ...did I mention I use only one recovery tank? Everything David has told me is true....I've added some of my own process to his, so I can make what I want...exactly how I want it...but the base extraction and recovery process is the same....

From grinding to packing to extracting and recovery.....in the oven in less than 1 hour!

By no means hating...just providing an honest perspective in to what a Tamisum extractor can do.

Cheers

Opinions are a luxury we all share, and believing is seeing, so shall we toss in a few factoids?

I personally got my inspiration from FOAF on this very forum.

4-26-2006. bho - large scale closed system published on IC Mag, fy FOAF, after prevously being published on Overgrow.

https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=27954&highlight=Butane+recovery

David filed for Patent 61/217,911 [FONT=&quot][/FONT]June 5, 2009, begging the question of where he got his inspiration, and as you may know, the patent wasn't granted.

As you may also know, David and Tamisium are in Texas, where cannabis isn't legal.

Given that they are still in business and Dave isn't in jail, what location and from whom do you think their R&D on actual cannabis came/comes from?

As PC notes, Carla and I've both trained Tamisium owners, because they came to us for help, despite what ever David's best efforts were at the time to do so from afar.

I think David is a fine fellow and he has a nice product. As such, it ostensibly has found its own level in the cannabis market place, relative to alternatives, and as you may note it hasn't dominated it, or even gotten a major share.

The reason for that is ostensibly that while a nice product, it offers no elegant advantages setting Tamisium ahead of alternatives and offers less overall utility at the margin based on price versus utility. Not my opinion, the free market speaks for itself.

I opened a thread on this forum specifically so that someone from Tamisium, or a knowledgeable customer could post the attributes setting them above the others, and you will note no one has done so.

That wasn't an attempt on my part to prove Tamisium inferior, only to draw out actual facts that will be required to sway the potential customers on this forum with significant personal experience, and a thirst for actual facts versus tired sound bites.

 

[thehoil]

I have a lot of respect for both you and David; many communities in this industry owe you guys some respect.

We all have our opinions. I've had a great experience with the extractor. It produces good yields and whatever consistency oil I want. Today I did a 98% recovery in 20min!

Knowing how to use a tool is more valuable than having the best tools. End results of the same regard can be achieved with different tools and methods.

Find what we like and stick to it.

Cheers and have a good day.

 

[Tamisium]

That's great you pumping out good product. You say you bought your tami 4 months ago. I can remember around two plus years ago sitting in Carla's livings room (skunk pharm) while she was being thanked over and over again by an extractor who had the 25k tami. She gave him simple advice, and turned his failing investment into a profitable endeavor.

David is very well educated on herbal extractions, but the pointers he is giving you were derived from users in the field...for years he told people how to make dark full extract oil, not dabable.....

Way out of context brother. To this day I still say you should turn up the heat and time and get it all out dark. But I qualify that by saying only if you know how to clean it. Your yields will be higher and your array will be too. As much as 50% higher.
If you dont know how to clean it then turn down the heat and time and restrict the extractor and solvent from being effective. What is important is to have a system that can do both.
I recognize the images from the post here and know who that is. He is just recently getting involved with a tamisium but that is in no way a bad thing. It shows we are continuing on with the same business practice after years.
It is still the same extractor. Maybe a few changes like wider openings on the tanks but that was only after I was asked to do it and knew they would pay the extra cost to do that. Removable perf plates and little changes like that but the design function never changed. I have been doing the same thing for years. And now that we closed the patent I will start sharing more. In the beginning I was reluctant but that did not mean we did not know how.

As far as Carla giving advice on how to run a tami, Thanks. There are many people that get it. But are you actually saying that you can call up Porsche and say hey, I found this cool little switch that changes the cruise rmp, did you know it was there and they will say thanks for figuring that out for us.
I will add this too. If someone gives you advice on how to run a tamisium call me and I will tell you a few other tricks to do the same thing and you can decide which one works best for you. I cannot count the times that someone called me after getting bad advice only to learn they have been wasting sometimes a little and sometimes a lot of time, money or labor. I could write a book on that subject alone.
For example, they decrease cold and ask why did my extract not get lighter. Because your contact time increased due to not decreasing pressure with cold. Does that mean adding pressure will increase speed, Yes and reduce contact time. Does that mean adding more pressure will reduce color even more. Yes but does that mean it is the pressure that is causing it or the contact time or the temp. At first you think temp but,,, lets think of temp as BTUs instead and imagine them as finite giving them a number of 10 per gallon. If it takes 1 hour to absorb BTUs in liquid and 20 hours in gas was it a temp change increase or decrease if your only had 10 minutes of contact time. how much power was pushing those BTUs around.
You can see now why some get it and some dont.
I try to keep it as simple as possible but get carried away at times.
Throw in a co solvent and WTF.
That is why I say forget all that and turn up the heat and time and just learn how to clean it.

We hate to see guys throw away 50% of such a valuable chemical oil etc when all they have to do is learn a few cleaning techniques. And some have and they thanked me for it. In the end it is your choice. Quick Easy and low profit or qucker harder at first and high profit.
It is like the triangle in business, Cheap, Fast, Quality. You only get 2 so choose which ones and move on. It is rare that you get all 3. When you have an apparatus that does do that. You have a Tamisium.
it is cheaper than a SCFE Machine.
Higher quality than all the knock offs
And Faster than all of them.
In the middle we will give a new 4th dimension.
All that together makes us Happy. )

A lot has to do with the volume and the education of the money handlers. If they knew you are throwing away product I am damn certain they would fire you and hire someone who knows how to squeeze very gram of money out of that plant and turn it into gold. No pun intended. But most of the guys involved dont know much about that.
There will always be the type that dont want to invest much time. They just want to get up and running. Then there will be the type that do want to invest it and waste nothing.
In this market it is a wasteful thing to see how fast it is growing and how that negatively effects the outcome. Hope we all slow down a bit and watch and learn a little.
But just because you dont understand or dont call dont mean we dont know.

I will guarantee you this!
Anyone that had a problem with how to extract or run a tamisium can call me and they will have a problem no more.
I dont know who you are or what your number is but mine is posted all over the world and I get those calls very day. The only unsatisfied customer I have is one I dont know about because they did not ask for help. One thing I regret is sharing anything with the guys that were too proud to call and thought they could start this new trend of making something work that was never broke.

What is funny to me is that the Tamisium is a simplified version of every extractor out there and instead of figuring the Tamisium out they made a lot of over complicated dangerous products all over again after we dropped those same processes.
As i said before. They are exactly where I was 8 years ago and 3-5 years after I started. They are on their way to making a real Tamisium Design while leaving a broken design. But now they are not going to be able to do that.

It is so simple.
Change your polarity if desired by adding co solvents.
Set your time and temp to any degree.
Turn on the heat and turn on the cold to create any speed of flow and when the tank is empty your are done extracting.
Reverse the heat and cold on the tanks and when your tank is empty you have recovered your solvent.
Empty your column and reverse the heat and cold and start again.
it is so simple that even a robot can do it.
Most people just leave the extractor and come back when it is done. Now tell me you can say that about any other system.
There are thousands of tamisium owners doing that every day thousands of times successfully winning gold cups, highest yields, highest array across the polarity band.
Dont be the one out of a thousand that cant figure it out. Call me.

Think about this. If you buy from a guy that builds knock offs of a tamisium you are buying from that 1 out of a 1000 that could not figure it out.
Post your question about a tamisium extractor in my forum on icmag.

 

[Tamisium]

Opinions are a luxury we all share, and believing is seeing, so shall we toss in a few factoids?

I personally got my inspiration from FOAF on this very forum.

4-26-2006. bho - large scale closed system published on IC Mag, fy FOAF, after prevously being published on Overgrow.

https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=27954&highlight=Butane+recovery

David filed for Patent 61/217,911 June 5, 2009, begging the question of where he got his inspiration, and as you may know, the patent wasn't granted.

As you may also know, David and Tamisium are in Texas, where cannabis isn't legal.

Given that they are still in business and Dave isn't in jail, what location and from whom do you think their R&D on actual cannabis came/comes from?

As PC notes, Carla and I've both trained Tamisium owners, because they came to us for help, despite what ever David's best efforts were at the time to do so from afar.

I think David is a fine fellow and he has a nice product. As such, it ostensibly has found its own level in the cannabis market place, relative to alternatives, and as you may note it hasn't dominated it, or even gotten a major share.

The reason for that is ostensibly that while a nice product, it offers no elegant advantages setting Tamisium ahead of alternatives and offers less overall utility at the margin based on price versus utility. Not my opinion, the free market speaks for itself.

I opened a thread on this forum specifically so that someone from Tamisium, or a knowledgeable customer could post the attributes setting them above the others, and you will note no one has done so.

That wasn't an attempt on my part to prove Tamisium inferior, only to draw out actual facts that will be required to sway the potential customers on this forum with significant personal experience, and a thirst for actual facts versus tired sound bites.

All tamisium post have been moved to the Tamisium Thead.
There are many post about tamisium on youtube, other forums and this one. One thread hardly does justice to anything.
If you want I can send out emails to my customers to post here??

Inspiration,, well it was not that link. That is for sure.
And guess what GW, the patent is not over.. After talking to DC patent examiners I can proudly say congratulations are in order.

Now looking at your BOM (Bill of Materials) and the photos in the link you provided it is easy to see where your inspiration came about and it was not that link you shared. Maybe for inspiration but no design... Considering when your BOM was shared with the world and the comment you made about Tamisium on that page instead of FOAF. So lets be honest.

I appreciate your compliments but that does not help recover all the lost millions when you shared the BOM telling everyone they can make a Tamisium at a reduced price without informing them if they went with your design it will be full of shortcomings and unsafe practices. Those designs not only stole our rightful market share but put everyone at risk while also ruining our image of safe. That is a problem yet to be sorted out. Until we got the patent there was literally nothing we could do but warn everyone that they may be liable for damages on that day of they continued. I am not going to ruin your holiday. Happy New Year.
I will leave you with this..
There may be room for you and I to reconcile in some way. You and very few others have at least been semi polite about ripping me off. I would much rather have friends than enemies.

In regards to where I was located and the apparent lack of MJ to work with. As I said before. Oil and Wax is oil and wax. Does not matter what plant it comes from. Math is same math in every part of the universe. But what little I had to learn I learned from my customers. No argument there. There are two schools of thought. My extractor process that allows anyone to perform any EXTRACTION process. One begets the other.
Everyone in the business knows from soxhlet and other reflux extractors how to extract pretty much anything. They know what heat time and polarity does and know what way to go. They just need to know to what degree. But the direction to go is known.
Cold and speed avoids color. Cold avoids wax. Time includes it.
Sugar dissolves in cold water slowly but does.
Sugar dissolves in hot water fast.
Wax dont dissolve in cold water but does in butane with enough time.
Wax melts in both hot water and cold butane.
You guys need to know the polarity and other physical properties of what you want to include and avoid and then you need an extractor that allows you to use the controls of the process to include or avoid them.
yes you have all learned a little about those properties. Hats off to you but most did not know that they could do that.
That is what I brought to the table. That knowledge to test and learn with.
And I brought an extractor that can do that.

You could say we all leaned together. I sort of used the world to prove my point. It was pretty easy since we could control at least one variable by using only one plant. That made all the test go a lot quicker. Prob had it figured out with the first dozen customers.

 

[Tamisium]

""The reason for that is ostensibly that while a nice product, it offers no elegant advantages setting Tamisium ahead of alternatives and offers less overall utility at the margin based on price versus utility. Not my opinion, the free market speaks for itself. ""

I almost missed that.
Price is what you pay over all when compared. We are cheaper over all. What do you buy after buying a tamisium. a 10 pack of $20 Orings every 5 years.
But what do you get rid of? A pump. Fire hazard, noise, lack of control. I would buy 2 tamisium extractors to get rid of all that forever.
Yes the free market spoke with over 3000 systems sold. Very little if any negative comments posted ever. Most speak flatteringly highly highly recommending a Tamisium. The only who sayers that make any comment are just that. Who are you. A competitor speaks up now and again hiding in a forum with no photos or proof they ever operated a tamisium. that is hardly going to hold water.
The only opinion I would value from competitors would be from Fritz Eden Labs and Andy at Apeks. It was Fritz that set me on my path over 15 years ago that I am still on today.

Even you GW would be totally enamored after using a Tamisium with my guidance. ;o)
how do I know that. Because I used that system made from the BOM you shared. We used it for years before you ever shared it. The Tamisium is an improvement over that. I hold the prior art to that system too. I also hold the prior art to the Mr. Extractor. There are only 3 systems out there. Loop and Closed Pump systems (your bom), Tamisium, closed passive, and Vertical Reflux (mr Extractor). The only one that could be patented is the Tamisium. The other ones we saw no use for by comparison and dumped them preventing any patent ever being granted. The other systems not mentioned are old styles of SCFE and other inferior closed systems.

What a nice feeling to know you can walk away from an extractor as it works silently and safely while it produces anything you want it to. What can you do to improve upon that? It is kind of like a race. You know when it is is over when you can see the finish line.
And GW, I saw that finish line a long time ago.

 

[Gray Wolf]

All tamisium post have been moved to the Tamisium Thead.
There are many post about tamisium on youtube, other forums and this one. One thread hardly does justice to anything.
If you want I can send out emails to my customers to post here??

Inspiration,, well it was not that link. That is for sure.
And guess what GW, the patent is not over.. After talking to DC patent examiners I can proudly say congratulations are in order.

Now looking at your BOM (Bill of Materials) and the photos in the link you provided it is easy to see where your inspiration came about and it was not that link you shared. Maybe for inspiration but no design... Considering when your BOM was shared with the world and the comment you made about Tamisium on that page instead of FOAF. So lets be honest.

My inspiration to design and build closed loop extractors came from FOAF, who did both passive and active recovery.

My inspiration to design and build the Lil Terp came from the TE-175 being priced out of the reach of ma and pa's medical needs.

I also offered to donate my time free to a joint development program by which Tamisium would produce a more affordable unit for ma and pa's medical needs.

Here is the transaction that followed:

http://skunkpharmresearch.com/2012/06/27/cease-desist/

I appreciate your compliments but that does not help recover all the lost millions when you shared the BOM telling everyone they can make a Tamisium at a reduced price without informing them if they went with your design it will be full of shortcomings and unsafe practices.

Yet somehow has been certified by third party Registered Professional engineers..................

Speaking of shortcomings and unsafe practices, the record is clear that it was you floating out the atmosphere by injecting the butane, instead of the safer practice of vacuuming it out first.

Those designs not only stole our rightful market share but put everyone at risk while also ruining our image of safe. That is a problem yet to be sorted out.

Clearly my designs did take a market share, but we will have to agree to disagree on who it legitimately belonged to.

Since I gave away the design to public domain, as is my right under free speech.

Until we got the patent there was literally nothing we could do but warn everyone that they may be liable for damages on that day of they continued. I am not going to ruin your holiday. Happy New Year.

Given that FOAF also gave away the passive design to public domain on Overgrow, and subsequently IC Mag, several years before Tamisium's filing, it will be interesting to see you defend your patent.

I will leave you with this..
There may be room for you and I to reconcile in some way. You and very few others have at least been semi polite about ripping me off. I would much rather have friends than enemies.

As you recall, I tried that once, but you refused to talk to me without a lawyer in the middle, and appeared more interested in shutting me up and controlling me, than working with me.

I am "friends" with several extractor manufacturers, none of which require an attorney to talk to me.

In regards to where I was located and the apparent lack of MJ to work with. As I said before. Oil and Wax is oil and wax. Does not matter what plant it comes from.

And therein lies a bone of contention, because my extractions of other botanicals all produced different results.

Math is same math in every part of the universe. But what little I had to learn I learned from my customers. No argument there. There are two schools of thought. My extractor process that allows anyone to perform any EXTRACTION process. One begets the other.
Everyone in the business knows from soxhlet and other reflux extractors how to extract pretty much anything. They know what heat time and polarity does and know what way to go. They just need to know to what degree. But the direction to go is known.
Cold and speed avoids color. Cold avoids wax. Time includes it.
Sugar dissolves in cold water slowly but does.
Sugar dissolves in hot water fast.
Wax dont dissolve in cold water but does in butane with enough time.
Wax melts in both hot water and cold butane.
You guys need to know the polarity and other physical properties of what you want to include and avoid and then you need an extractor that allows you to use the controls of the process to include or avoid them.
yes you have all learned a little about those properties. Hats off to you but most did not know that they could do that.
That is what I brought to the table. That knowledge to test and learn with.
And I brought an extractor that can do that.

You could say we all leaned together. I sort of used the world to prove my point. It was pretty easy since we could control at least one variable by using only one plant. That made all the test go a lot quicker. Prob had it figured out with the first dozen customers.

I accept and second your last statement, that we all learned together. I opine and proffer that there is also enough business for everyone who can supply a certifiable product, with competitive utility at the margin.

With legalization, comes regulation, so I expect to see some of the builders fade away, as should anyone not building units capable of certification.

What I don't accept David, is that you are the best source for all the answers, given the collective sum total of experience using other designs, or were the original source.

What would gladden my heart, and make me feel closer, would be for you or one of your representatives to simply post the processes and procedure that you deem better than our current practices, so that we can try them ourselves.

Simply debating that you were ripped off, as well as we have unsafe products and don't know what we're doing isn't winning as many friends and influencing as many brothers and sisters as you you may be hoping.

 

[Gray Wolf]

""The reason for that is ostensibly that while a nice product, it offers no elegant advantages setting Tamisium ahead of alternatives and offers less overall utility at the margin based on price versus utility. Not my opinion, the free market speaks for itself. ""

I almost missed that.
Price is what you pay over all when compared. We are cheaper over all. What do you buy after buying a tamisium. a 10 pack of $20 Orings every 5 years.
But what do you get rid of? A pump. Fire hazard, noise, lack of control. I would buy 2 tamisium extractors to get rid of all that forever.

Are you expanding the debate by comparing your passive system to an active system, or the passive Lil Terp that "stole millions" from you?

Yes the free market spoke with over 3000 systems sold. Very little if any negative comments posted ever. Most speak flatteringly highly highly recommending a Tamisium. The only who sayers that make any comment are just that.

Perspective, perspective, perspective. It is a matter of public record that I've always said you have a nicely made system, that is priced out of the range of ma and pa needing medications not available to them from their pharmacy.

I took exception to your method of purging the atmosphere, and suggested that you enlarge the lid opening on the TE-175, which you did.

Who are you. A competitor speaks up now and again hiding in a forum with no photos or proof they ever operated a tamisium. that is hardly going to hold water.

Up this point, I've never been your competitor, and I supported your customers by teaching them how to use your units for free, as has my Skunk Pharm Research associates. No need to thank us, your customers already did.

I have certainly supported your competitors by handing them equipment designs pro bono that sold in place of your equipment, but have never personally made any money from the cannabis market. The records are in fact clear that it has been a dark hole to pour my hobby allowance into.

But back to the point at hand; I continue to ask for specifics as to why the Tamisium is better than the products you malign, and not only have you not provided that information, but now you are trying to discredit the messenger.

What message do you think that sends to the thinking members of this forum. That you have nothing to share and discrediting the messenger is your only recourse???

PS: Here is a picture dated 2012 of the first TE-175 I laid hands on.

The only opinion I would value from competitors would be from Fritz Eden Labs and Andy at Apeks. It was Fritz that set me on my path over 15 years ago that I am still on today.

Fritz and Andy are fine fellows, whom I consider friends and whom I haven't needed an attorney to converse with. It was Fritz that turned me on to the Haskel pump.

Even you GW would be totally enamored after using a Tamisium with my guidance. ;o)

I have no doubt that there are things you could teach me. Would one of them be that the Tamisium can do things that the Lil Terp can't?

how do I know that. Because I used that system made from the BOM you shared. We used it for years before you ever shared it.

Pictures and records?

The Tamisium is an improvement over that. I hold the prior art to that system too. I also hold the prior art to the Mr. Extractor.

Several of us do hold prior art to the Mr Extractor, but I don't see his current system as designed, passing certification

There are only 3 systems out there. Loop and Closed Pump systems (your bom), Tamisium, closed passive, and Vertical Reflux (mr Extractor). The only one that could be patented is the Tamisium.

Would this be a, "third time is a charm" thing? As previously noted, prior art published on public domain before 2006 suggests you will have expensive fun defending any patent granted that covers the basic operational features.

It has been my own experience, that only the intellectual properties attorneys egging us on, make money from the process. How expensive has it been for you so far?

The other ones we saw no use for by comparison and dumped them preventing any patent ever being granted. The other systems not mentioned are old styles of SCFE and other inferior closed systems.

What a nice feeling to know you can walk away from an extractor as it works silently and safely while it produces anything you want it to. What can you do to improve upon that? It is kind of like a race. You know when it is is over when you can see the finish line.
And GW, I saw that finish line a long time ago.

If you were less enthused and dedicated to your product, I would think less of you, but that takes us back to perspective and the free market.

Good that you've already seen the finish line that you believe the rest of us seek, but consider that our finish line may be different than yours, and more to the point, I personally have no finish line.

I just move on to the next question..........

 

[SkyHighLer]

No offense David, you brought out high quality, well thought out products, but we have legalization knocking on the door, and affordable butane/propane CLS extractors were/are needed, and GW accomplished it. If you get a patent, and try and enforce it now, you will be dragging down the cannabis movement, and that, imo, is bad karma. If I were you I'd have a wee bit of an attitude problem also, my advice is to keep it a little more subdued, and take your rightful place in the hall of fame. Best, John

 

[Tamisium]

No offense David, you brought out high quality, well thought out products, but we have legalization knocking on the door, and affordable butane/propane CLS extractors were/are needed, and GW accomplished it. If you get a patent, and try and enforce it now, you will be dragging down the cannabis movement, and that, imo, is bad karma. If I were you I'd have a wee bit of an attitude problem also, my advice is to keep it a little more subdued, and take your rightful place in the hall of fame. Best, John

Hello
No offense taken but I dont think you have the full picture. We are certified safe and have been selling safe certified systems from day one. The issue is with Denver Colorado because we fired the engineering company that they have placed all their faith in. So that one city is our hangup. Even that said we have a Professional Engineering EPR that shows that the PR approved our system and this guy wont approve any of the systems PSI approved. There for anyone that wants a system in Colordado.
In regards to affordable, I have systems that use pumps at half the price I sell systems without pumps. But I dont recommend them due to the loss of control and safety issues with any electrically powered reciprocating pump system. And the systems we sell that could use a pump would run exponentially faster than the systems compared.
In addition, as most are aware now, pumps dont save money they cost money. So although a little cheaper up front you will never get out of the pump cost trap and that savings will be long gone soon after you get the system.
My half pound extractor can recover 1500 grams of solvent in 20 minutes. Show me a pump system that can do that with that volume of extractor and be done extracting afterwards. Not recovered but forced to loop it back through. I am talking about how long total time did it take to recover all the solvent required to extract completely. And that is a Tamisium with one recovery tank compared to a pump system price.
That being said a TE12000 can recover 12 gallons or 48 liters of solvent in less than 2 hours. We are talking about recovery and extraction. Extraction finishes first in around 5-120 minutes you choose. Times given for recovery assuming the faster extraction time.
We dont have to loop and that is why we can extract so much faster.
We have specially designed evaporator tanks. Not Dairy Tanks and that is why we recover so much faster.
the entire system is optimized and calibrated in its dimensions, surface areas, conductive and convection qualities and volume ratios and every single tool available for use on any system is still also available on any other extractor including mine. The difference is that works fine without those other tools and even works better safer faster with more control.

What I mean by we can use the same tools,,,
1.You can add a cold sleeve to the column but none is needed because we accomplish the same thing by design.
2. You can add a recovery pump but none is needed. We accomplish that by design. A Tamisium can go faster than a system designed around the pump even without the pump and you can also go faster than our system design if you added a pump but are you trying to beat our system or theirs in speed.
When is speed and the cost of speed a problem?
When it limits your control, destroys your product and puts your life at risk.
That is when it is a problem.

Now if you take the pumps off all systems and compare. No comparison. We run faster even if we gave a handicap to the compared by allowing them to run with a pump. Just read "thehoils" post in the icmag forum or the tamisium forum on icmag. He is not the only one and I wish others that can achieve those speeds would chime in There are dozens that go slower as designed because they dont care about the speed.
If anyone wants to go faster just call me and allow me to help you achieve your goals.
The problem is that I dont want to over promise and send someone a system that they cannot achieve what I designed it to do in worst case scenarios. Such as using only ice or a basic chest freezers to condense when they recover.
I state in worst case scenario you can expect this but that does not mean that if you add more BTUs or more Wattage you wont go faster. On the contrary.
You could recover in one minute theoretically. But who wants to waste that much money to do that.
You have to draw a line somewhere.
I can guarantee you this.
You will always be the slower one if you dont design to be fast and the guys that design for pumps rely on the pump instead of the very basic principles of physics to achieve speed. And those are all HVAC Air conditioner pumps.

 

[Tamisium]

No offense David, you brought out high quality, well thought out products, but we have legalization knocking on the door, and affordable butane/propane CLS extractors were/are needed, and GW accomplished it. If you get a patent, and try and enforce it now, you will be dragging down the cannabis movement, and that, imo, is bad karma. If I were you I'd have a wee bit of an attitude problem also, my advice is to keep it a little more subdued, and take your rightful place in the hall of fame. Best, John

by the way,,
enforcing a patent can be done without shutting guys down. They can purchase licensing rights and so on.
And shutting some of these guys down would do the world a favor. Contamination, safety, controlling what you can make and so on are benefits to the industry. So those that don't posses that would be shut down and that would be an improvement.
The consumer will still have extractor options but they will not have to worry about all the crap to sort through to get to a reliable choice anymore.
To be honest, I am tired of dealing with all the upset customers that come from the other side and I am tired of spending hours on the phone convincing new extractor techs what is wrong with the other equipment. I would be a lot more successful and we all would be in a better place if I spent that time developing equipment and promoting it.
Let me finish by saying if you call me upset by poorly designed equipment of need help understanding why your going to get it and you will have my sympathy when you do. No matter if you understand it and buy a machine or not.
I spend a lot of time helping others learn how to use other machines and even machines of mine that I did not sell them.

 

[Gray Wolf]

Hello
No offense taken but I dont think you have the full picture. We are certified safe and have been selling safe certified systems from day one. The issue is with Denver Colorado because we fired the engineering company that they have placed all their faith in. So that one city is our hangup. Even that said we have a Professional Engineering EPR that shows that the PR approved our system and this guy wont approve any of the systems PSI approved. There for anyone that wants a system in Colordado.

I think its fair to rule out any systems incapable of being certified, as not really being in the competition long term. There are enough that do, to eliminate any need for them, and the legislation and liability will continue to mount.

Besides an OR PE ASME certification of the Terpenator design, is was subsequently approved by a WA PE for use there, and the Mk IVC by PSI for use in OR, WA, CO, NV, and MD.

As far as PSI goes, I found them more demanding than the other PE firms, and we didn't agree on all the finer points, but I agree with how we were able to resolve it, using techniques achieving the same ends. While it made the certification more tedious, I would rather find out up front, than after the fact in a lawsuit.

In regards to affordable, I have systems that use pumps at half the price I sell systems without pumps. But I dont recommend them due to the loss of control and safety issues with any electrically powered reciprocating pump system. And the systems we sell that could use a pump would run exponentially faster than the systems compared.

In addition, as most are aware now, pumps dont save money they cost money.

And for those of us morons who are acutely unaware of that statement, could you explain with supported fact, how that statement is anything but hyperbole

So although a little cheaper up front you will never get out of the pump cost trap and that savings will be long gone soon after you get the system.
My half pound extractor can recover 1500 grams of solvent in 20 minutes. Show me a pump system that can do that with that volume of extractor and be done extracting afterwards. Not recovered but forced to loop it back through. I am talking about how long total time did it take to recover all the solvent required to extract completely. And that is a Tamisium with one recovery tank compared to a pump system price.
That being said a TE12000 can recover 12 gallons or 48 liters of solvent in less than 2 hours. We are talking about recovery and extraction. Extraction finishes first in around 5-120 minutes you choose. Times given for recovery assuming the faster extraction time.
We dont have to loop and that is why we can extract so much faster.
We have specially designed evaporator tanks. Not Dairy Tanks and that is why we recover so much faster.
the entire system is optimized and calibrated in its dimensions, surface areas, conductive and convection qualities and volume ratios and every single tool available for use on any system is still also available on any other extractor including mine. The difference is that works fine without those other tools and even works better safer faster with more control.

What I mean by we can use the same tools,,,
1.You can add a cold sleeve to the column but none is needed because we accomplish the same thing by design.
2. You can add a recovery pump but none is needed. We accomplish that by design. A Tamisium can go faster than a system designed around the pump even without the pump and you can also go faster than our system design if you added a pump but are you trying to beat our system or theirs in speed.
When is speed and the cost of speed a problem?
When it limits your control, destroys your product and puts your life at risk.
That is when it is a problem.

Now if you take the pumps off all systems and compare. No comparison. We run faster even if we gave a handicap to the compared by allowing them to run with a pump. Just read "thehoils" post in the icmag forum or the tamisium forum on icmag. He is not the only one and I wish others that can achieve those speeds would chime in There are dozens that go slower as designed because they dont care about the speed.
If anyone wants to go faster just call me and allow me to help you achieve your goals.
The problem is that I dont want to over promise and send someone a system that they cannot achieve what I designed it to do in worst case scenarios. Such as using only ice or a basic chest freezers to condense when they recover.
I state in worst case scenario you can expect this but that does not mean that if you add more BTUs or more Wattage you wont go faster. On the contrary.
You could recover in one minute theoretically. But who wants to waste that much money to do that.
You have to draw a line somewhere.
I can guarantee you this.
You will always be the slower one if you dont design to be fast and the guys that design for pumps rely on the pump instead of the very basic principles of physics to achieve speed. And those are all HVAC Air conditioner pumps.

The proof of the pudding is in the market place, and it has been my experience that it follows what works best, bringing to question why you continue to lag behind in market share.

Perhaps if you demonstrated your superiority for us to see, versus continuing to tell us about it, your market share would increase?

 

[Gray Wolf]

by the way,,
enforcing a patent can be done without shutting guys down. They can purchase licensing rights and so on.
And shutting some of these guys down would do the world a favor. Contamination, safety, controlling what you can make and so on are benefits to the industry. So those that don't posses that would be shut down and that would be an improvement.
The consumer will still have extractor options but they will not have to worry about all the crap to sort through to get to a reliable choice anymore.
To be honest, I am tired of dealing with all the upset customers that come from the other side and I am tired of spending hours on the phone convincing new extractor techs what is wrong with the other equipment. I would be a lot more successful and we all would be in a better place if I spent that time developing equipment and promoting it.
Let me finish by saying if you call me upset by poorly designed equipment of need help understanding why your going to get it and you will have my sympathy when you do. No matter if you understand it and buy a machine or not.
I spend a lot of time helping others learn how to use other machines and even machines of mine that I did not sell them.

Last I heard, there was no patent after at least two attempts. Has that changed?

 

[thump easy]

I tried 2 pasive systems and they didnt perform for volume of units per day. Picked up a bhogart its in customs waiting ill post back and let you know. How it hold up to an industry standard.

 

[Old Gold]

I tried 2 pasive systems and they didnt perform for volume of units per day. Picked up a bhogart its in customs waiting ill post back and let you know. How it hold up to an industry standard.

Yew didnt dew it ryte

What was the passive setup like?

 

[PinnacleStainls]

Wow this is something else to read.