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Slownickel lounge, pull up a chair. CEC interpretation
- Thread starter slownickel
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Bungle,
If you need boron and calcium, looks to be reasonable. It is based on amino acids and the formula is acidified.
Never used the product. Personally I use either Baicor or Albion. Both have organic certifications which is also important for me.... my place is organic.
https://goo.gl/1U92jS
If you need boron and calcium, looks to be reasonable. It is based on amino acids and the formula is acidified.
Never used the product. Personally I use either Baicor or Albion. Both have organic certifications which is also important for me.... my place is organic.
https://goo.gl/1U92jS
FoothillFarming
Active member
I wish I could comment on the pics in your link.
What kind of bird is that, a fairly recent picture. Looks like a hawk of some kind. Very cool picture. Also, what's up with the bongs stuck in the pot full of dirt????? lol. What is that? The pic next to what looks like peppers on a table/rack.
What kind of bird is that, a fairly recent picture. Looks like a hawk of some kind. Very cool picture. Also, what's up with the bongs stuck in the pot full of dirt????? lol. What is that? The pic next to what looks like peppers on a table/rack.
FoothillFarming
Active member
Also, I been meaning to ask. What is the white residue on the limes and avocado leaves?
Some sort of hawk. There is a pair hanging out at the one farm, a pair of foxes too. Lots of burrowing owls.... flying gophers. The holes are small though....haha.
Bongs in dirt? Get your head out of the baggie already! Look up etiolation. It is a way to clone avocado root stock. Not working too well. I have made a couple more experiments using other "technology". Interestingly enough, my latest experiment is with a turbo kloner, it has been cranking for 2 months now, and we are seeing some pretty positive response to cloning this way, especially with a bit of zinc in the water.....
Yeah, my "team" plants a lot of stuff. My wife has some artichokes in there, some chinese astralagus (selenium bio-accumulator), black mission figs (15 or so in the field producing! Yum!), two types of mint, two types of green basil, and lots and lots of oregano. All for export.
I need to post a bunch more photos in there, the place has really filled in so much....
MrBungle
Active member
Good to hear its alright, I found a sample of it going through my cabinets... once upon a time I thought it might be a bad Ca-B ratio that caused my SSH to "claw" in early flower..I used it once or twice, and I'm really not a fan of foliar feeding so it got pushed back in my cabinet...I don't think that was what caused the claw (I'm pretty sure its copper def that causes the claw), but I recall my plants appreciating the extra Ca and B sprayed on...
Awesome farm pics too.. Suddenly I have a taste for guacamole!!
Awesome farm pics too.. Suddenly I have a taste for guacamole!!
FoothillFarming
Active member
Sorry
Sheds some light on the plant pirate thing. I will research that, thanks again.
Dust, spinosad, wettable sulfur, foliar, it just all builds up. We only wash down the trees once or twice a year. Not sure what it is. We get less than an inch of rain a year....
CEC, how much is enough?
CEC, how much is enough?
We are starting to gather an interesting data base, good versus not so good (being kind). The idea is to make the good better and the not so good, even better yet, no? There was even one set of samples to understand why one half of a plant had problems and the other half didn't (more sodium than potassium on the bad side).
A lot more data is coming in, I urge each and every one to join in.
What we are seeing is what was expected. The higher the Ca in the base distribution, the more incredible the grow. Ideally we would get real results in terms of leaf analysis even lab results from the dispensaries. Even better if we could get some of the medicinal growers involved to separate the actives from that of the recreational.
Some have contributed to this information data base unwittingly by admitting huge gypsum applications that make me look like like a gypsum cub scout. Caterpillar wins with more than 7 mt/ha of gypsum per season. Even my correctives don't go that high and I am pretty sure that dosis was never calculated as is would mean over a 90% Ca base saturation.
We have seen naturally occuring 80%+ Ca in the base exchange in Maui soils using AA@8.2, which obviously explains a lot about the myth of Maui.
In afterthought, growers are realizing that this monster CEC of 20 or more is like trying to steer the Titanic in a tiny river, it is super difficult, unless perfectly tuned in from day 1 and you better not plan on moving it much. If you make one mistake, you will be very unhappy, as any error will take a huge amount of something to fix.
So what does this mean about the size of the CEC? Keep it slim and trim, like a top shape athlete, that can be easily shifted from 85% Ca down to 82 or 83% Ca with just a bit of K, yet not so much K that we can't shift it back to high Ca 85% at early flowering only to start pushing K further and further after week 3 or so. This means a lower CEC, 12 to 14 or so. This way it will only take small amounts of inputs to change things. And without all this organic material and carbonates, the soil will react much better to the application of the more difficult metals like copper and manganese which get easily tied up with organic material and little makes it to the plant.
Some of you all have heard of my investigations into the Fe/Mn ratios. Where we have pushed Mn to be in excess of Fe, the results are incredible, not only with yields, but quality. Dumping on worm castings or compost that is full of iron is not a good idea. Makes the objective of balancing your Mn someday nearly an impossible task.
Have I done this on your crop, nope. Have I done it on thousands of hectares of melons, yep. Best melon you ever had too. That is a short term annual that must be dialed in to get both yield and quality.
Yield and quality need not be mutually exclusive objectives. You can have your cake and eat it to!
There are a couple of you out there that have given me the liberty to try some experiments on your grow, hopefully these individuals will share their results. I cannot share what is not mine.
As most of you know, I am not charging for my services nor time, nor sell anything. I am here to learn. Hopefully we can all learn together.
Peace!
CEC, how much is enough?
We are starting to gather an interesting data base, good versus not so good (being kind). The idea is to make the good better and the not so good, even better yet, no? There was even one set of samples to understand why one half of a plant had problems and the other half didn't (more sodium than potassium on the bad side).
A lot more data is coming in, I urge each and every one to join in.
What we are seeing is what was expected. The higher the Ca in the base distribution, the more incredible the grow. Ideally we would get real results in terms of leaf analysis even lab results from the dispensaries. Even better if we could get some of the medicinal growers involved to separate the actives from that of the recreational.
Some have contributed to this information data base unwittingly by admitting huge gypsum applications that make me look like like a gypsum cub scout. Caterpillar wins with more than 7 mt/ha of gypsum per season. Even my correctives don't go that high and I am pretty sure that dosis was never calculated as is would mean over a 90% Ca base saturation.
We have seen naturally occuring 80%+ Ca in the base exchange in Maui soils using AA@8.2, which obviously explains a lot about the myth of Maui.
In afterthought, growers are realizing that this monster CEC of 20 or more is like trying to steer the Titanic in a tiny river, it is super difficult, unless perfectly tuned in from day 1 and you better not plan on moving it much. If you make one mistake, you will be very unhappy, as any error will take a huge amount of something to fix.
So what does this mean about the size of the CEC? Keep it slim and trim, like a top shape athlete, that can be easily shifted from 85% Ca down to 82 or 83% Ca with just a bit of K, yet not so much K that we can't shift it back to high Ca 85% at early flowering only to start pushing K further and further after week 3 or so. This means a lower CEC, 12 to 14 or so. This way it will only take small amounts of inputs to change things. And without all this organic material and carbonates, the soil will react much better to the application of the more difficult metals like copper and manganese which get easily tied up with organic material and little makes it to the plant.
Some of you all have heard of my investigations into the Fe/Mn ratios. Where we have pushed Mn to be in excess of Fe, the results are incredible, not only with yields, but quality. Dumping on worm castings or compost that is full of iron is not a good idea. Makes the objective of balancing your Mn someday nearly an impossible task.
Have I done this on your crop, nope. Have I done it on thousands of hectares of melons, yep. Best melon you ever had too. That is a short term annual that must be dialed in to get both yield and quality.
Yield and quality need not be mutually exclusive objectives. You can have your cake and eat it to!
There are a couple of you out there that have given me the liberty to try some experiments on your grow, hopefully these individuals will share their results. I cannot share what is not mine.
As most of you know, I am not charging for my services nor time, nor sell anything. I am here to learn. Hopefully we can all learn together.
Peace!
plantingplants
Active member
Found this on some forum: Over 70% Calcium base saturation CEC and the other nutrients become exponentially less available to plants esp the micro-nutrients.
Do you know who they're quoting and what do you think about that? Is that the creation of space that you mean to happen? Is that also the reason we can apply micros weekly?
Do you know who they're quoting and what do you think about that? Is that the creation of space that you mean to happen? Is that also the reason we can apply micros weekly?
Realize that most folks are using calcium carbonate, if so, that will increase pH dramatically. If you try and use that as your primary calcium source on an alkaline soil with alkaline water, you are doomed to have micronutrient issues.
Gypsum doesn't do that.
Calcium nitrate will also spike the pH upwards just like carbonate (but it is very quick and works well under the right circumstance and in the right quantities).
Most folks don't know about nor use gypsum. George Washington did though! They called it land plaster.... read up on that one.
Gypsum doesn't do that.
Calcium nitrate will also spike the pH upwards just like carbonate (but it is very quick and works well under the right circumstance and in the right quantities).
Most folks don't know about nor use gypsum. George Washington did though! They called it land plaster.... read up on that one.
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plantingplants
Active member
So thatdoesnt happen with gypsum if saturation is >70?
Why did tiedjens preach limestone and not gyp?
Why did tiedjens preach limestone and not gyp?
Gypsum is pH neutral and can sometimes push pH lower as it pushes out sodium and magnesium.
It is almost impossible to build inventories of Calcium with gypsum. Gypsum is to clean up a soil and push the bases in the correct direction pushing Na, Mg and K out, making space for K applications while feeding Ca in quantities with no negative affects with metals.
Of course the response using gypsum to open a soil is a whole other issue.
Calcium carbonate can be used or bone meal can be used to build up Ca inventories, better to mix either in a good compost. Gyspum is used to throttle up soluble Ca at the right moments in time.
Tiedjens was in acid soils, as was Albrecht. They never thought to try gypsum even though Albrecht did speak well of gypsum after he retired, the same time he realized 85% Ca was a better target than 68% Ca. From what I have been able to gather, Albrecht was travelling and was in an area where the soil was alkaline where he witnessed gypsum applications and when he tested the soil, he realized the same thing that I did. The distribution of bases has to equal 100%.
Paying it forward...
It is almost impossible to build inventories of Calcium with gypsum. Gypsum is to clean up a soil and push the bases in the correct direction pushing Na, Mg and K out, making space for K applications while feeding Ca in quantities with no negative affects with metals.
Of course the response using gypsum to open a soil is a whole other issue.
Calcium carbonate can be used or bone meal can be used to build up Ca inventories, better to mix either in a good compost. Gyspum is used to throttle up soluble Ca at the right moments in time.
Tiedjens was in acid soils, as was Albrecht. They never thought to try gypsum even though Albrecht did speak well of gypsum after he retired, the same time he realized 85% Ca was a better target than 68% Ca. From what I have been able to gather, Albrecht was travelling and was in an area where the soil was alkaline where he witnessed gypsum applications and when he tested the soil, he realized the same thing that I did. The distribution of bases has to equal 100%.
Paying it forward...
Good question, thanks for asking it.
I've been reading Tiedjens on Slow's recommendation and wondering the same thing.
Where Tiedjens and Albrecht worked, they were on washed out soils in relatively high rainfall areas. They had to build a soil and in almost all the places they worked, they were rain fed conditions.
Everything is relative to where you are in agriculture and the dynamics between all your variables.
Everything is relative to where you are in agriculture and the dynamics between all your variables.
FoothillFarming
Active member
If I can figure out how to post up tests on my new computer, I will show how SlowN's application of gypsum can really change a soil. (SlowN, if you post remove my real name please)
_tessarecting
ஓ
Hit the print screen button [prnt scrn] then go into Paint or photoshop. Press Paste or ctrl V. A screenshot will paste into the program. You can then select which part you want to copy, create a new file, and paste that. Save. Upload to icmag or imgur.com which strips exif data.
Analysis
Analysis
These are the different samples that Foothill has run.
The two AOG samples are before and after gypsum. Note how the copper index and manganese index respond with the addition of gypsum. The opposite of applying carbonate or nitrates.
Note how the Base Distributions changed. Look at Mg dropping. Look at Na falling out.
Paying it forward...
Analysis
These are the different samples that Foothill has run.
The two AOG samples are before and after gypsum. Note how the copper index and manganese index respond with the addition of gypsum. The opposite of applying carbonate or nitrates.
Note how the Base Distributions changed. Look at Mg dropping. Look at Na falling out.
Paying it forward...
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Oh boy oh boy this can be misleading not all soils are the same so adding gyp should be used wisely .
AGVISE recently conducted a laboratory project looking at the affect gypsum has on soil test levels of calcium, soluble salts, cation ratios, soil pH and CEC. The results of the laboratory project are shown in figures 2 & 3. Some people who sell gypsum claim that it lowers the soil pH dramatically. It is apparent that this is not true, even at rates as high as 36000 lb/a gypsum the soil pH is about the same as the check.
As the rate of gypsum is increased you can see the test level for calcium increases while the level of magnesium, potassium and sodium remain the same (Figure 2). [IMG] When gypsum (calcium sulfate) is applied to the soil, it dissolves in the soil solution. Some of the calcium becomes attached to soil particles as part of the cation exchange capacity of the soil. The remaining gypsum stays in the soil solution as dissolved calcium sulfate salt. The soil testing method used by all commercial and University soil testing laboratories picks up the calcium that is held on the soil, as well as the calcium that is dissolved in the soil solution as soluble salts. The calcium in the soil solution is “NOT” held on the soil, and should not be included because it is not held on the soil, but it is included in the common method used by all soil testing laboratories. Because this soil testing method includes the calcium from the soil solution, the test values reported are inflated on the high side. You can see this inflation occurring as the rate of gypsum increases in Figure 2. The calcium test value goes up, but the soil is not holding more calcium, the test is just including the calcium dissolved in the salts in the soil solution. You can see this is true because the salt level increases as the rate of gypsum increases.
The base saturation value for a soil is a calculation that determines the percent each cation makes up of the total cations in the soil. When the percent base saturation for a soil is calculated, the ppm value for calcium, magnesium, potassium and sodium are used in the calculation. Since the calcium ppm level keeps increasing as more gypsum is applied, calcium becomes a larger percentage of the total cations. We know that the soil is not holding more calcium, we are just measuring the increasing amount of calcium in the salts of the soil solution.
The Cation Exchange Capacity (CEC) of a soil is the ability of a soil to hold the cations calcium, magnesium, potassium and sodium. The CEC of a soil is a permanent feature based primarily on soil texture, clay content and organic matter. When gypsum is applied to the soil it does not actually change the CEC of the soil, but it does change the calcium test value determined in the laboratory, which is used to calculate the CEC value for the soil. Because an inflated calcium value is used to calculate the CEC of the soil, the calculated CEC goes up as the gypsum rate increases (Figure 3). [IMG] These CEC values are erroneous due to the error caused by including calcium from the salts in the soil solution. The correct CEC of this soil, determined by a special laboratory method that does not include calcium from the salts in the soil solution is 18 meq. The routine method, used by all commercial soil testing labs, did a good job of determining the CEC to be 17, until higher rates of gypsum were applied. That means that you can change the calculated CEC of the soil by adding gypsum, but you are not really changing the ability of the soil to hold cations.
Facts learned from past field research and AGVISE laboratory project:
You can achieve high yields on soils with a wide range of cation ratios.
You can apply enough gypsum to a soil to change the laboratory test results for calcium, but this does not actually change the CEC of the soil or the amount of each cations actually held on the soil.
Even low rates of gypsum over the long term on a poorly drained soil will increase the salt level of the soil. As the soil salt level increases, crop yields will decrease over time.
Gypsum does not decrease or increase the soil pH of productive soils
It is most important to know the level of each nutrient in the soil. If a nutrient tests in the deficient range, it needs to be applied. The concept of balancing cations is not supported by the facts of the real world.
http://www.agvise.com/educational-articles/gypsum-magic-part-3/
AGVISE recently conducted a laboratory project looking at the affect gypsum has on soil test levels of calcium, soluble salts, cation ratios, soil pH and CEC. The results of the laboratory project are shown in figures 2 & 3. Some people who sell gypsum claim that it lowers the soil pH dramatically. It is apparent that this is not true, even at rates as high as 36000 lb/a gypsum the soil pH is about the same as the check.
As the rate of gypsum is increased you can see the test level for calcium increases while the level of magnesium, potassium and sodium remain the same (Figure 2). [IMG] When gypsum (calcium sulfate) is applied to the soil, it dissolves in the soil solution. Some of the calcium becomes attached to soil particles as part of the cation exchange capacity of the soil. The remaining gypsum stays in the soil solution as dissolved calcium sulfate salt. The soil testing method used by all commercial and University soil testing laboratories picks up the calcium that is held on the soil, as well as the calcium that is dissolved in the soil solution as soluble salts. The calcium in the soil solution is “NOT” held on the soil, and should not be included because it is not held on the soil, but it is included in the common method used by all soil testing laboratories. Because this soil testing method includes the calcium from the soil solution, the test values reported are inflated on the high side. You can see this inflation occurring as the rate of gypsum increases in Figure 2. The calcium test value goes up, but the soil is not holding more calcium, the test is just including the calcium dissolved in the salts in the soil solution. You can see this is true because the salt level increases as the rate of gypsum increases.
The base saturation value for a soil is a calculation that determines the percent each cation makes up of the total cations in the soil. When the percent base saturation for a soil is calculated, the ppm value for calcium, magnesium, potassium and sodium are used in the calculation. Since the calcium ppm level keeps increasing as more gypsum is applied, calcium becomes a larger percentage of the total cations. We know that the soil is not holding more calcium, we are just measuring the increasing amount of calcium in the salts of the soil solution.
The Cation Exchange Capacity (CEC) of a soil is the ability of a soil to hold the cations calcium, magnesium, potassium and sodium. The CEC of a soil is a permanent feature based primarily on soil texture, clay content and organic matter. When gypsum is applied to the soil it does not actually change the CEC of the soil, but it does change the calcium test value determined in the laboratory, which is used to calculate the CEC value for the soil. Because an inflated calcium value is used to calculate the CEC of the soil, the calculated CEC goes up as the gypsum rate increases (Figure 3). [IMG] These CEC values are erroneous due to the error caused by including calcium from the salts in the soil solution. The correct CEC of this soil, determined by a special laboratory method that does not include calcium from the salts in the soil solution is 18 meq. The routine method, used by all commercial soil testing labs, did a good job of determining the CEC to be 17, until higher rates of gypsum were applied. That means that you can change the calculated CEC of the soil by adding gypsum, but you are not really changing the ability of the soil to hold cations.
Facts learned from past field research and AGVISE laboratory project:
You can achieve high yields on soils with a wide range of cation ratios.
You can apply enough gypsum to a soil to change the laboratory test results for calcium, but this does not actually change the CEC of the soil or the amount of each cations actually held on the soil.
Even low rates of gypsum over the long term on a poorly drained soil will increase the salt level of the soil. As the soil salt level increases, crop yields will decrease over time.
Gypsum does not decrease or increase the soil pH of productive soils
It is most important to know the level of each nutrient in the soil. If a nutrient tests in the deficient range, it needs to be applied. The concept of balancing cations is not supported by the facts of the real world.
http://www.agvise.com/educational-articles/gypsum-magic-part-3/
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