I will check if I can get some of the last batch we have made but there not a finnished product.
Respect
Claude
Respect
Claude
I'm tired of arguing the fem seed issue thing. I have no hands on experience, and cannot say for sure their bad. Much of the negativity, is word of mouth, NOT experience, and Hoosier pointed that out to me. I'm admitting I was wrong, and moving on from here.
I'm willing to give fem's a shot, if they treat me well, I'll know for sure my beliefs were wrong. If not... never again.
Don't get me wrong, I'll always prefer reg beans, but until I grow them, I can no longer shit on fems. They have their place. (it seems)
Plus, if I want to run Serious 6 outside, and I do, I'll have to use fems.
I'm willing to give fem's a shot, if they treat me well, I'll know for sure my beliefs were wrong. If not... never again.
Don't get me wrong, I'll always prefer reg beans, but until I grow them, I can no longer shit on fems. They have their place. (it seems)
Plus, if I want to run Serious 6 outside, and I do, I'll have to use fems.
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Fair enough brother... I can't deny you (or anyone) that right... Trial and error, right? Grow forward with many blessings rassssssssta
I am not sure now if I will send to you those seeds as they are not ready yet!!
Respect
Claude
C
cork144
i experimented with 36hr darkness and my clone ended up flowering around 3 days earlyer compared to flipping into 12/12, i was pretty pleased, i speculated and think it could be because they start slowing down growth for awhile, lay alittle dormant, then when they hit the light they just snap and wake up, it was quick growth even for the first 12hr back into light and from there on it was just realy quick growth,
good to see serious come out with fems, shame to see people upset by the fatc youve moved that way,
if a breeder could make strains that have stuck around for so long won many cups and are still as legendary as the day they came out, then why would people think he wouldnt put the same degree of effort into fems?
best of luck,
good to see serious come out with fems, shame to see people upset by the fatc youve moved that way,
if a breeder could make strains that have stuck around for so long won many cups and are still as legendary as the day they came out, then why would people think he wouldnt put the same degree of effort into fems?
best of luck,
nyy27
Member
Well said cork144!
All breeding purposes aside, lets take a look at another side of the arguement.... the medical patient's side. Let's take for instance a medical marijuana patient would has been stricken with some sort of painful ailment that limits their mobility and compromises expendable energy. This type of patient, which is of common occurence outside of the realm of recreactional usage, would benefit headlongs more from feminized seeds than regular seedstock. The amount of marijuana they can cultivate can be increased because of the higher percentage of female plants (more medicine means more pain management), the quality of the marijuana would be among the same quality of the regular seedstock because more than likely the feminized versions were generated from the same genetics (same quality just easier to obtain a likeable phenotype), and lastly if still concerned with hermie rates... the rates for the expression of hermaphrodites within feminized seeds still doesn't hold a candle to the probabilities of recieveing either male or hermaphrodite plants from regular seedstock (lower percentage of unusable plants translates to more medicine production for consumption).
As everyone can see there is an incredibly useful premise to feminized seeds whether you are a medical marijuana patient, or just an avid horniculturalist. Whether your personal marijuana usage is medicinal or recreational, feminized seeds just make cultivating high quality marijuana more attainable...
Cheers
NYY
I am convinced that the same procedure of selection for the proper parents has to happen for both regular and forced breeding. I hardly see the arguments the myths carry.
And as far as the worth of fem seeds...nyy27 made some super valid points, and I would add that for the gorilla grower, they are revolutionary. Males can be a risk to security and the quality of the end product.
Look up some of ol' Silverback's arguments on the worth of fems.
And as far as the worth of fem seeds...nyy27 made some super valid points, and I would add that for the gorilla grower, they are revolutionary. Males can be a risk to security and the quality of the end product.
Look up some of ol' Silverback's arguments on the worth of fems.
silverback was cool,,,
1 thing i want to point out!!!!!!!!
like nyy points out here,,,,,,,,recessive traits are very hard to avoid when you use males,,,,recessive intersexed traits might not present a probblem in the current population but with impropper selection that recessive intersexed expreshion might raise-up and become dominant,,,
1 thing i want to point out!!!!!!!!
Nyy said:
like nyy points out here,,,,,,,,recessive traits are very hard to avoid when you use males,,,,recessive intersexed traits might not present a probblem in the current population but with impropper selection that recessive intersexed expreshion might raise-up and become dominant,,,
hey Claude,
first of all let me thank you very much for the thorough reply,
really appreciated
It would be nice to hear more details about the method used to reverse sex/produce fem seeds though..
Many companies seem to be quite open about their methods , some companies/breeders mention they use G.Acid , others say they use STS (Silver Thiosulfate Solution) , others like Soma use simple techniques where no substances are used/lets the plants ~2 extra weeks in flowering till they produce bananas and uses their pollen on other female plants to produce fem seeds..
as a potential customer of Serious Seeds products I believe I should be entitled to know what kind of method Serious Seeds use to create their fem seed products.
I can understand that it may be a new revolutionary method that you invented and are using and you may not want to share for some reason...but if you can't share the exact process with us it would be nice to know at least if any other substances are used to reverse sex and make fem seeds or if its a different 'natural' method.
Regards
l33t
first of all let me thank you very much for the thorough reply,
really appreciated
It would be nice to hear more details about the method used to reverse sex/produce fem seeds though..
Many companies seem to be quite open about their methods , some companies/breeders mention they use G.Acid , others say they use STS (Silver Thiosulfate Solution) , others like Soma use simple techniques where no substances are used/lets the plants ~2 extra weeks in flowering till they produce bananas and uses their pollen on other female plants to produce fem seeds..
as a potential customer of Serious Seeds products I believe I should be entitled to know what kind of method Serious Seeds use to create their fem seed products.
I can understand that it may be a new revolutionary method that you invented and are using and you may not want to share for some reason...but if you can't share the exact process with us it would be nice to know at least if any other substances are used to reverse sex and make fem seeds or if its a different 'natural' method.
Regards
l33t
nyy27,
Fem seeds definitelly have their place in the market (and they are already taking over the market). I will not argue about that , fem seeds are popular for a reason. They are great for certain purposes just like with the case of guerrilla growers.
But I believe the real issue is when it comes to breeding with plants that come from fem seeds.
Now I personally agree 100% with Shanti on this:
"the only real issue is this. Feminized seed are great for those who do not want to breed, but grow a flower with minimum of ease"
"Regular seed is the genetic pool and therefore should be kept separated until a lot more experience and research is done without polluting and destroying all we selected for over the last decades."
One can start off with regular seeds and flower straight from seed (zero veg time). Most hybrids will show sex within 14-22 days from cracking the soil surface. You then toss the males and keep only the females , then switch to veg mode ie 18/6 lighting and veg till you are happy before going to flowering mode. This process takes very little extra time and minimum effort and if you start with with good genetics in the form of regular seeds you should not experience hermi problems at all. This is all from my personal experience with multiple tests and strains so I know well what I m talking about.
Not always the pheno others have selected for you is the one you would select for yourself.
Here is an example to make my point..A fast/high yielding , say SSH pheno may be popular amongst most growers...but this doesn't mean that me and many other growers would also chose to grow and keep this pheno.. For instance me as a personal grower I would always prefer a more hazy leaning phenotype from the SSH line over a faster/higher yielding plant from the same line. Its all about personal preference and in a well bred line one should be able to find multiple phenos that are great each in its own right.
So one great thing reg seed has is that it gives the ability to the grower to chose himself the desired phenotype according to his own criteria and likings and there is more variation to chose from. Also its nice to be able to experience different phenotypes that somewhat vary when you grow f1 seedsplants from a line.
This is not the case from what I have been seeing from many different growers.
There are many regular seed lines out there that will not give any hermis (at least when grown descent/well) but there are many fem seed lines in the seed market that will give hermis and in many cases at a high percentage even in almost ideal growing conditions. This is shown in way too many grow reports..and this is why people are still skeptical about using fem seeds (and esp for breeding). Plus this is why I asked Claude to give some info on Serious Seeds preferred method for making fem seeds
Anyway..I think if seedbanks produced fem seeds as an addition to their reg seed lines there wouldn't be such a negative 'reaction' towards fem seeds. But it seems that the majority of seedbanks only sell fem seeds nowadays and this is certainly not a good thing. There are still many growers out there that want to use males..they should have the option.
Fem seeds definitelly have their place in the market (and they are already taking over the market). I will not argue about that , fem seeds are popular for a reason. They are great for certain purposes just like with the case of guerrilla growers.
But I believe the real issue is when it comes to breeding with plants that come from fem seeds.
Now I personally agree 100% with Shanti on this:
"the only real issue is this. Feminized seed are great for those who do not want to breed, but grow a flower with minimum of ease"
"Regular seed is the genetic pool and therefore should be kept separated until a lot more experience and research is done without polluting and destroying all we selected for over the last decades."
I do agree..but not completely.
That sounds to be the case but its not necessarily true. Let me explain..
One can start off with regular seeds and flower straight from seed (zero veg time). Most hybrids will show sex within 14-22 days from cracking the soil surface. You then toss the males and keep only the females , then switch to veg mode ie 18/6 lighting and veg till you are happy before going to flowering mode. This process takes very little extra time and minimum effort and if you start with with good genetics in the form of regular seeds you should not experience hermi problems at all. This is all from my personal experience with multiple tests and strains so I know well what I m talking about.
Here is something to think about:
Not always the pheno others have selected for you is the one you would select for yourself.
Here is an example to make my point..A fast/high yielding , say SSH pheno may be popular amongst most growers...but this doesn't mean that me and many other growers would also chose to grow and keep this pheno.. For instance me as a personal grower I would always prefer a more hazy leaning phenotype from the SSH line over a faster/higher yielding plant from the same line. Its all about personal preference and in a well bred line one should be able to find multiple phenos that are great each in its own right.
So one great thing reg seed has is that it gives the ability to the grower to chose himself the desired phenotype according to his own criteria and likings and there is more variation to chose from. Also its nice to be able to experience different phenotypes that somewhat vary when you grow f1 seedsplants from a line.
This is not the case from what I have been seeing from many different growers.
There are many regular seed lines out there that will not give any hermis (at least when grown descent/well) but there are many fem seed lines in the seed market that will give hermis and in many cases at a high percentage even in almost ideal growing conditions. This is shown in way too many grow reports..and this is why people are still skeptical about using fem seeds (and esp for breeding). Plus this is why I asked Claude to give some info on Serious Seeds preferred method for making fem seeds
Anyway..I think if seedbanks produced fem seeds as an addition to their reg seed lines there wouldn't be such a negative 'reaction' towards fem seeds. But it seems that the majority of seedbanks only sell fem seeds nowadays and this is certainly not a good thing. There are still many growers out there that want to use males..they should have the option.
Its all good Claude, I have read a majority of this thread overtime. I guess I am just down and out that hes not releasing any indicas....lol
where is Greeninthethumb,,i bet he would get a right laugh outa this,,,,,,
fem beans are bad,,,,,umkay
fem beans are bad,,,,,umkay
One of the real problems for breeding with all female seeds is the number of plants used to find the selected female clones to be used for transforming to male for pollen.
If a breeder can't use males because he don't have enough grow space, then maybe, maybe he should not be breeding in the first place. I mean that breeding Cannabis is not something to cut corners on, you need large plant numbers to make any sort of quick progress toward any goal. Using only females for breeding because you don't have any room for unwanted males really reveals something fundamentally lacking in your breeding program and your priorities.
BTW I do not believe that using all female seeds will be worse for growers of commercial crops, if the seeds were made from true females and not inter-sexed females. I see no increase of inter-sexed plants from properly made all female seeds. But that said I have no idea what percentage of all female seeds are properly made, not a whole lot I suspect, it is just to easy to STS a female clone you got yesterday, and make a batch of whatever X whatever all female seeds, without any stress testing of the female clones for inter-sexed traits before you use them to make seeds. That is the problem, anyone can make all female seeds you just need STS not any breeding ability, but the good part is it is a lot easier then maintaing males, hell, anyone can do it. And because the qualities of an F1 all female or not are most often between the two parents, if you use strong female clones as parents then the odds of your all female offspring being at least ok bud is very high.
My own reasons for not making all female seeds is I want growers to have both female and male plants, so the seeds planted will reproduce if grown outdoors un-helped by man.
While with all female the plants are dependent on man for reproduction. Unless man turns one of the all females to male with STS then there will be no seeds, and soon who knows what? I do understand why cultivators like all female seeds, but breeders? I can't help but think they are just trying to cut corners and reduce plant numbers, something that should be avoided if you want to be a breeder, large plant numbers are the key to quick progress, wise up.
-SamS
If a breeder can't use males because he don't have enough grow space, then maybe, maybe he should not be breeding in the first place. I mean that breeding Cannabis is not something to cut corners on, you need large plant numbers to make any sort of quick progress toward any goal. Using only females for breeding because you don't have any room for unwanted males really reveals something fundamentally lacking in your breeding program and your priorities.
BTW I do not believe that using all female seeds will be worse for growers of commercial crops, if the seeds were made from true females and not inter-sexed females. I see no increase of inter-sexed plants from properly made all female seeds. But that said I have no idea what percentage of all female seeds are properly made, not a whole lot I suspect, it is just to easy to STS a female clone you got yesterday, and make a batch of whatever X whatever all female seeds, without any stress testing of the female clones for inter-sexed traits before you use them to make seeds. That is the problem, anyone can make all female seeds you just need STS not any breeding ability, but the good part is it is a lot easier then maintaing males, hell, anyone can do it. And because the qualities of an F1 all female or not are most often between the two parents, if you use strong female clones as parents then the odds of your all female offspring being at least ok bud is very high.
My own reasons for not making all female seeds is I want growers to have both female and male plants, so the seeds planted will reproduce if grown outdoors un-helped by man.
While with all female the plants are dependent on man for reproduction. Unless man turns one of the all females to male with STS then there will be no seeds, and soon who knows what? I do understand why cultivators like all female seeds, but breeders? I can't help but think they are just trying to cut corners and reduce plant numbers, something that should be avoided if you want to be a breeder, large plant numbers are the key to quick progress, wise up.
-SamS
It's all in the numbers. Good post Sam.
hay sam,,,,,,,,,love your work
i too have worries about repoduction outside of the lab,,,,,,,,!!!!!!!
i also think,,,,,,YES!!!!!,,,,IT IS VERY IMPORTANT FOR EVERYONE TO OBTAIN POLEN!!!!
but,,,, what about polution of landrace via hybrid polen??,,,,,,,,is this issue too small to worrie about?,,,,,,fem seeds would kill the landracePolenPoloution problem...
IS IT A GOOD-THING TO HAVE SO MUTCH POLEN FLYING AROUND???......breeders could still obtain polen via Cs or STS revercal...no?............
[ive never heard of a plant that wont bare polen,,but i could be wrong]
this raises the question ,,,,,,,,what is better,,,,,,,Fempolen[xx],,,,or,,,,Malepolen[xy]
if we use Malepolen newbreeders are making an almost blind observation,,,,,,,,,,,wouldnt you rather have newbreeders starting-off by making choices baced on more extencive observations than they have used in the past?
id say its a good idea havin all the newbis hunting to isolate traits via selfing,,,,,,,,,,
i think its a good idea to have 100`s of removed lines,,,,no?
,,,,,,,,,love your worki too have worries about repoduction outside of the lab,,,,,,,,!!!!!!!
i also think,,,,,,YES!!!!!,,,,IT IS VERY IMPORTANT FOR EVERYONE TO OBTAIN POLEN!!!!
but,,,, what about polution of landrace via hybrid polen??,,,,,,,,is this issue too small to worrie about?,,,,,,fem seeds would kill the landracePolenPoloution problem...
IS IT A GOOD-THING TO HAVE SO MUTCH POLEN FLYING AROUND???......breeders could still obtain polen via Cs or STS revercal...no?............
[ive never heard of a plant that wont bare polen,,but i could be wrong]
this raises the question ,,,,,,,,what is better,,,,,,,Fempolen[xx],,,,or,,,,Malepolen[xy]
if we use Malepolen newbreeders are making an almost blind observation,,,,,,,,,,,wouldnt you rather have newbreeders starting-off by making choices baced on more extencive observations than they have used in the past?
id say its a good idea havin all the newbis hunting to isolate traits via selfing,,,,,,,,,,
i think its a good idea to have 100`s of removed lines,,,,no?
imo,,,,the best way to preserve supirior genotypes is via a selfing breeding project with over x2000,,,,,,,,
bobs ya unkle
sam is the man
bobs ya unkle
sam is the man
Lets take a look around and see how many folks are responsibly breeding with males....
I'd say if we were to point a finger at what continues the intersex trait, it would be folks chucking male pollen indiscriminately.
I'd say if we were to point a finger at what continues the intersex trait, it would be folks chucking male pollen indiscriminately.
Could be true, I believe progeny are as good as the parents, be they male and female, or female transformed to male with a female. If breeders spend time to discover if a female has inter-sexed traits by stressing them with every known way, and keeping the ones with no inter-sexed traits for breeding with they are off to a good start.
But I see a serious change in the seeds being produced and sold nowadays, 3/4 or more are all female, if this continues then soon almost all genes in the Cannabis Drug Genepool will be in fact be from populations without males. This is already true.
Of course the Western bred Cannabis seeds are a small fraction of the total number of Drug Cannabis seeds produced yearly, while the commercial drug Cannabis seed market
may seem big it is less then 1,000 kg or one metric ton per year, that is less then 50 million seeds. The amount of seeds produced yearly with commercial Cannabis crops worldwide is thousands of times more, many many thousands of times.
The first step is to be aware of the problems and then do something to help people avoid the worst problems, like inter-sexed progeny.
-SamS
But I see a serious change in the seeds being produced and sold nowadays, 3/4 or more are all female, if this continues then soon almost all genes in the Cannabis Drug Genepool will be in fact be from populations without males. This is already true.
Of course the Western bred Cannabis seeds are a small fraction of the total number of Drug Cannabis seeds produced yearly, while the commercial drug Cannabis seed market
may seem big it is less then 1,000 kg or one metric ton per year, that is less then 50 million seeds. The amount of seeds produced yearly with commercial Cannabis crops worldwide is thousands of times more, many many thousands of times.
The first step is to be aware of the problems and then do something to help people avoid the worst problems, like inter-sexed progeny.
-SamS
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thx for the prompt answer claude
but i have to ask about this again... so you asume that the sex of a cannabis plant depends on enviroment and not on the genetic of the seed?because if we asume that there are genetically true females (as you can see sam also states that) which can be used to produce real female seeds, then temperature in the vegging stage is pretty irrelevant for the sex. it only might become important with genetical hermaphrodites that show mostly female flowers...
also from what you post about the new strain (that there will only be regulars when you have sent all your stock to simon) i understand that it's not simon's creation but yours or somebody else, is that true?
do you also produce the fem seeds of the 5 classic serious seed strains? or does simon himself do it?
hay sam,,,,,,,what would you rather have???
peeps breeding from random "basicly untested" males,,,,,,,,or would you rather have newbis playing with polen from a proven true female??,,,,,,,,,,,,,[imo its easyer to run a female 100`s of times]
lets take my cheese clone for example,,,,,,,
would you rather me use 5 random males,,,or would you rather i self it,,,,,,,,ive grown this clone in many "niche" enviroments and its never expressed intersexed traits
according to the rachet theory ,,,with males[xy], the Y is missing a leg,,,,how do you feel about breeding with XX just so we dont miss the data in the leg??????????
,,,,,,,what would you rather have???peeps breeding from random "basicly untested" males,,,,,,,,or would you rather have newbis playing with polen from a proven true female??,,,,,,,,,,,,,[imo its easyer to run a female 100`s of times]
lets take my cheese clone for example,,,,,,,
would you rather me use 5 random males,,,or would you rather i self it,,,,,,,,ive grown this clone in many "niche" enviroments and its never expressed intersexed traits
according to the rachet theory ,,,with males[xy], the Y is missing a leg,,,,how do you feel about breeding with XX just so we dont miss the data in the leg??????????
