Reversed Backcrossing:)

[englishrick]

people have been smoking wild weed for thousands of years. without selective breeding landrace strains do very well on their own. I feel smoking weed only for the flavour misses the whole point of smoking weed. the only reason old strains dissapear is that new better strains come into being. though stuff like accapulco gold could still be found. If you cant find it, say a prayer to Eris and maybe she'll come through for you. if you still feel that selfing is the only way to go, then self. But I dont think its right to come up with ideas and then ask other people to do the work for you. If that is the path that you are going to walk, fair enough. But dont ask others to walk it for you.

i am doing the work myself....ive had too,,,,,ive got no problem with this....i just want to know if im allone o wrong in my understanding of the way thing are?


Hay GMT,,,what do you want to smoke landrace or hybrid,,,,,i think samS Sk1 and the Hazebros Haze sets the standard of weed......so as far as i see it,,,i want to smoke hybrids,,,,an this is where it gets compicated

 

[englishrick]

are you a bio-dynamic farmer?

 

[englishrick]

eventualy il just sut my mouth and just do this on my own back,,,,i just wish someone would to relate to me

 

[GMT]

I certainly have different tastes to you rick. My thread contains the answers to that question.
I'm a closet grower if that answers your 2nd Q.
And frankly, the answers to everything you have asked are already in this thread.

 

[englishrick]

please forgive me bro

but it sounds like your not a bio-dynamic farmer...so why are you so concerned with mantaining organic normality?

i feel alone in my understanding

only Rez breeds for the typa flavour i want in my weed,,,an thats why hes is special....same with Soma

 

[GMT]

I'm not. I am concerned with future health. Bring on the healthy freaks is I'm sure something I prove to be my philosophy everyday.

 

[englishrick]

oh and yeh samS got me with Sk1 ,an shanti is killin it with SSH

 

[englishrick]

I'm not. I am concerned with future health. Bring on the healthy freaks is I'm sure something I prove to be my philosophy everyday.

sounds like your gona be a hardcore "selfing" master sometime soon

 

[englishrick]

Haze is good to,,,,,,,but you gota admit

Haze an SK1 are both similar projects to what im proposing with fIBL`s...

and the way Haze and SK1 has been used in hybrids is very similar fIBL hybrids

 

[GMT]

nah, I'll never get into selfing, I just dont believe in it. Its a personal choice that I make. I'll leave that stuff for others to do. Perhaps its just the domain of the real masters, or artists of the weed world. I know my place and I'm happy with it. I wont use in breeding or grow anything that I know to have been selfed or femminised.

 

[englishrick]

i feel your turning a blind eye,,,and as far as im concerned,,,YOU are 1 of the masters

 

[englishrick]

thankyou for being honest GMT

 

[Colina]

Rick, I won't reply to that except to say that yes, for the most part, you've got it all wrong - please, stop trying to deal in absolutes.

GMT, do you eat food? Then you are into unnatural selfing. You are into mechanical and chemical detasseling, you are into chemical sprays that cause infertile pollen etc, you are into all kinds of "unnatural" breeding methods/mechanisms my friend. It seems to me either a bit disingenuous or naive to be applying a double standard only in regards to cannabis, don't you think?

 

[GMT]

OK Colina, I have double standards lol. I'm not saying I'm right mate, just that that's how I am

 

[englishrick]

Rick, I won't reply to that except to say that yes, for the most part, you've got it all wrong - please, stop trying to deal in absolutes.

please set me strait,,,,you seem to aprove of some of this.,,,,some of my basic points seem to have been confirmed by you,,,please explain?,,,,what points do you confirm

thankyou for guidence,,,,,i do need it,,,an i apreceate every bit

GMT, do you eat food? Then you are into unnatural selfing. You are into mechanical and chemical detasseling, you are into chemical sprays that cause infertile pollen etc,

ive never spoken about infertile pollen etc......whats the deal with that 1,,,"if you dont mind me askin" ?,,,,all help is mutch apreceated,,,,,infertile pollen could be a major problem, i dont want to do that!!

its hard to talk to people about Selfing,,,,i think we all have had problems with this one,,,everyone hates the idea,,,,,,but as far as i can see, the biology papers say [Not using "Selfing" disrupts the frequency of selection],,,,,what am i supposed to think?,,,,,i dont want to cause any harm nor do i want to be hated ...but this is a major conflict of intrest in our comunity,,,im sure you can empthize

you are into all kinds of "unnatural" breeding methods/mechanisms my friend. It seems to me either a bit disingenuous or naive to be applying a double standard only in regards to cannabis, don't you think?

Thai plants self on there own is that un-natural,,,,this is evoloution is it not?,,,,it all depends on what "we" want to conserve,,,and that that still seems NOT to be Bio-Dynamic in itself[/QUOTE]


im trying to follow the footsteps of my heroes,,,samS....TomHill ,,the HazeBros....you cant blame me for trying

i feel little demonized when you say you are into all kinds of "unnatural" breeding methods/mechanisms my friend...not that i take it to heart,,,but i take your advise,,,so its a little hard for me to read without cringing

is David Watson a demon??

David Watson, the CEO of the Dutch R&D company Hortapharm, has assembled what is arguably the world's most comprehensive cannabis-seed library.
By: Bill Breen

In the annals of medical-marijuana history, it was a significant moment: In June 1998, British regulators granted GW Pharmaceuticals a license to cultivate and supply marijuana for research and pharmaceutical development. There was just one problem: Where in the world would Geoffrey Guy, GW's founder and chairman, find a legal source of pharmaceutical-grade marijuana seeds -- enough to grow "tons" of material? Someone in England's Home Office gave Guy a tip: A reclusive Dutch company called Hortapharm, founded by two Californian expatriates, might be able to help him out.
In the world of ganja connoisseurs, Hortapharm's founders -- David Watson and Robert Clarke -- are near-gods. Clarke, Hortapharm's principal botanist, is the author of Marijuana Botany and Hashish!, the first serious, science-based books on cannabis cultivation for a counter-culture readership. Watson, the company's CEO, traveled to nearly every marijuana-rich country on the planet and assembled what is arguably the world's most comprehensive cannabis-seed library. Allen St. Pierre, executive director of the National Organization for the Reform of Marijuana Laws, credits Watson with "almost single-handedly preserving hundreds of strains of cannabis."
When I met Watson in his office in a residential neighborhood in Amsterdam, he presented me with two marijuana seeds. One seed, from Kashmir, was the size of a pinhead -- "wild ditch weed, wannabe marijuana," Watson called it. The other was a hemp seed, as fat as a lentil. The seeds could easily have symbolized the breadth of his study of Cannabis sativa.
Watson has a linebacker's build and a crooked, Jack Nicholson smile. On the subject of cannabis, he is ferociously opinionated, frequently punctuating his assertions with an in-your-face refrain: "Do you understand?" What follows are excerpts from a lengthy interview, in which he describes how he and Clarke came to be two of the pioneering entrepreneurs in the Aboveground Marijuana Economy.
What drove you to collect cannabis seeds?
I had a jewelry and clothing import business during the 1970s and early '80s, and I did a lot of traveling throughout Asia. While I was in India, I became aware of Ayurvedic medicine, which still uses cannabis to treat a wide variety of illnesses. I've always had an interest in seeds -- I'm a lifetime member of the Seed Savers Exchange in the US -- and I began collecting cannabis seeds to see how different strains might be used for different medical applications. I also saw how eradication efforts by international law enforcement agencies were having a negative effect on the very high end of the gene pool. I wanted to collect that high end before it was lost. I collected in Mexico, South Africa, Thailand, Colombia -- thousands of strains from dozens of countries.
How would you find the seeds that you wanted?
It depends. If it's during the growing season, you might be able to make contact with an illicit farmer. If it's out of season, you've got to connect with a person who sells illegal cannabis. I've walked into pharmacies and asked, "If I was interested in getting seeds from the cannabis plant for making medicine, where would I get them?" In south India, I notified the police that I was collecting and one of them gave me a plant as a present! My goal was to collect all of these genetics worldwide. It wasn't easy -- sometimes you have to step into harm's way to get the goods.
What kind of a plant would you look for?
In general, you're looking for a clean genetic profile -- the ability to produce the compound you're after. And you want a plant that's producing lots of flowers -- lots of resin. If the plant doesn't have a lot of resin on it, it's probably not going to have very much THC in it, even if the profile is incredibly clean. You need both.
The clones that people are using to produce illicit marijuana are by far primarily only THC [the psychoactive ingredient in marijuana]. They don't really have the other cannabinoids because year after year, recreational smokers have selected only for THC and rejected everything else. But because we're breeding for medicine, we're after THC and all the other cannabinoids. [Cannabis is comprised of 61 cannabinoids, complex molecules unique to the plant, of which THC is the best known.] I don't have any interest in collecting varieties that have been developed in the West by marijuana growers. They're just have the same old THC, which is what recreational smokers are looking for. I want varieties that have unusual characteristics in their growth or flowering period, or new and unusual sources of cannabinoids.
What led you to launch Hortapharm?
Our original business plan was to breed pharmaceutical-grade cannabis and use it to produce a cheaper, generic version of Marinol. [Marinol is a synthetic-THC tablet for treating nausea induced by cancer chemotherapy.] We knew we could produce pure THC from the plant, which is superior to a synthetic. I'm convinced that the synergistic effects of the full plant, which in its natural form produces 400 compounds, is far more medically beneficial that any single synthetic component.
We were going to knock our price down at least a third or more from Marinol's price tag. We thought that within a year or two, we could grab 66% of Marinol's $20-million market, which was enough to support our small company. But money wasn't the reason we did this. We were really interested in bringing cannabis back into mainstream medicine.
Given the drug laws in the United States, I guess you had no choice but to set Hortapharm up in the Netherlands.
We never could have carried out this activity in America -- we would have turned old and gray just waiting to do the work. So in 1994, we applied to the Dutch Ministry of Health for a license to cultivate cannabis. We finally got it in 1997, which made us the Netherlands' first legal operation to grow cannabis for pharmaceutical research. The application process was extraordinarily rigorous. I was shocked by how long it took. Holland has this rep as the marijuana capital of the world. But while it's true that you can buy a small amount in a coffee shop, the government is very strict with cultivation.
How did you go about growing pharmaceutical-grade cannabis, which must be standardized to be made into a medicine?
That's the thing. If you bought tomato seeds and grew 100 plants, they'd all come out the same. But if you bought cannabis seeds on the black market and grew 100 plants, you're probably going to get a lot of variation. Amateur growers just don't have a full understanding of how to breed. I had spent years collecting cannabis seeds worldwide. We grew thousands and thousands of those, analyzed them, and selected for the target compounds we really wanted. We grew the plants in a big glasshouse and we also grew outdoors, in secret locations.
[Watson displays a photograph of five acres of high-grade pot, cultivated for seed production, from "somewhere" in Europe.] After we extracted the seeds we wanted from this crop, we burned all five acres. My American friends were dumbfounded -- it would have been worth millions of dollars on the black market. But that's what plant breeders do -- we grow 100,000 plants, keep 100 of them, and trash all the rest. I love to kill. I'm getting rid of everything that's imperfect.
Okay, so you got the seeds you wanted. How did you then grow plants that were genetically consistent -- a prerequisite for producing medicine?
Cannabis is normally a heterozygote, which means it has two sets of chromosomes -- one from the mother and one from the father, and they vary. Through a proprietary technique we developed called selfing, we became the world's first breeders to develop homozygote cannabis, in which both sets of chromosomes are identical. We then mass produced plants with just the one cannabinoid profile we wanted. We grew plants that were 98% THC, or 98% CBD. And that's what Geoffrey Guy [founder of GW Pharmaceuticals] was looking for. He wanted different cannabinoids -- THC, CBD, CBC, CBG -- which he could then blend in different ratios and explore them for their medical efficacy. We were the only ones in the world who had what Geoffrey badly needed.
How did you meet Dr. Guy?
We had sent a representative to a meeting of the Multiple Sclerosis Society in England, which Geoffrey attended. We were the only people there that were supporting the U.K. government's position on medical marijuana, which was to take a step-by-step approach to studying the issue. Everybody else just wanted to legalize medical marijuana tomorrow. We felt it was better to test the materials first and put them through a normal drug-approval process. Our colleague impressed Geoffrey, and he contacted us.
When Geoffrey came over here in 1998, we were getting close to our financial limit. We're an R&D company -- we didn't have a product that was making an income. The problem for Geoffrey is that all cannabis experts have backgrounds -- they've built their expertise by working with an illegal material. But Hortapharm was fully licensed by the Dutch government. So Geoffrey got a legal supply of pharmaceutical grade germ-plasm. And he got me and Robert Clarke to pass along our knowledge. We gave him at least a five-year head start.
If Sativex, GW's cannabis-based medicine for treating MS symptoms, gets approved by British regulators, what effect will that have on the debate over medical marijuana? It will prove to people, patients, and businesses that cannabis can be a valuable therapeutic agent. And once Sativex gets the go-ahead in the UK, it will quickly win approval in Europe, Canada, and Australia -- and the U.S. will be the one country to stand there and say, No, cannabis has no therapeutic application. But I don't think American scientists will stand for that.

 

[Chimera]

only Organic/biodynamic farmers hate Selfing,,,,an we ain bio dynamic farmers

>> This is just another snippet from the vast amounts of uter nonsense Rick has posted in this thread. There are so many flawed arguments it would take me a couple of days to go through the whole thread and explain why each of these arguments are erroneous, and at 40 some pages I'm just NOT going to do that.

But riddle me this Rick:

How could an organic tomato farmer produce seeds without selfing?

Some species are selfers, some species are outcrossers. Both selfers and outcrosser require specific breeding schemes that allow improvement of the species in question.

Tomato (lycopersicon esculentum) is a perfect example of a self-crossing plant. Only emasculation of the flowers permits a significant degree of outcrossing / hybridization with non-related cultivars. Tomato plants can self for 20+ generations with no significant loss of vigour.

Try selfing Cannabis for 5 generations using single seed decent and see how far you get in terms of improvement, while maintaining vigour. It won't be far. Thus, selfing is a tool, not a breeding scheme.

1:1 breeding schemes are not conducive to improvement; by definition create bottlencks and narrow the breeding pool to a incredibly damaging degree.

Backcrossing a 1:1 line by choosing single plants to mate to one of the parents FURTHER reduces the genetic variability of the progeny.

Sure it increases homozygosity, but that is not a necessarily a good thing when you consider that it narrows the variability of the traits NOT under selection.

Breeders should slowly move POPULATIONS towards stability of specific traits of interest (as outlined by the CHOSEN BREEDING GOAL), and all the while PRESERVING genetic variability at the loci NOT UNDER SELECTION.

If a seed-maker / HACK doesn't understand the difference of selfing species and outcrossing species, they have NO BUSINESS using techniques that reduce the genetic variability with the gene pool. You are fucking with the amount of variability within the gene pool which limits the potentially available resources that future breeders (who may actually know what they are doing) have at their disposal. You are eliminating alleles that can't be brought back! Once they are gone, they are gone.

Selfing increases homozygosity %50 at every generation. Tomato, an inbreeding / selfing species has had it's genome shaped over thousands of years by repeated selfing and has thus PURGED deleterious or non-viable alleles, the genome is fairly homozygous (nay, incredibly homozygous compared to Cannabis). The selfing process doesn't narrow the gene-pool as it does with Cannabis - an obligate OUTCROSSER.

Outcrossers like humans and Cannabis have genomes that are riddled with deleterious and non-viable (homozygous lethal) alleles. The concept of human brothers creating progeny with their sisters is frowned upon in every culture (except certain Royal families )- and not out of some idealistic moral code, but from evaluation of the progeny of such crosses that have taken place in the past. Siblings certainly created offspring as humans were expanding their population and spreading the world and had greatly reduced fitness and greatly increased incidence of genetic diseases. Observations of the progeny from incestuous crosses created the cultural taboo... the moral objection to the practice.

The same situation holds true for Cannabis. I find myself having to re-build populations out of what has been passed down to me from the past 30-40years of uneducated and uninformed selections and 1:1 matings.

Think of it this way. You are going to colonize MARS. What are you going to do... take ONLY your brother and sister and their respective spouses... and from this miniscule representation of the total human genome go and try to develop a new population through multiplication of the genetics you brought with you? Or are you going to bring as many and as diverse a breeding pool as possible to ensure the future genetic health of your population?

Breeding cannabis is akin to selecting individuals for the development of a Mars colony, EACH TIME YOU CREATE A GENERATION . Breeders MUST consider theses same implications every time they select individuals for their inclusion in or exlusion from a breeding population.

If you plan to engage in a genetically narrowing mating scheme like selfing or backcrossing Cannabis, you should be aware of the consequences and limitations of the breeding scheme and have plans in place to rectify these consequences at future generations.

If you don't understand these concepts, you should be growing ELITE individuals that you may have access to. Leave the breeding to people that aren't going to put the genetic integrity (or what is left of it) of the species in jeopardy by engaging in and promoting the use of breeding schemes that they don't understand, all the while claiming that science backs up their speculations and assumptions, which they have clearly not researched.


Talk of genome topology, QTLs (Qualitative Trait Loci) and such by someone that CLEARLY doesn't even understand the difference between selfing/inbreeding species and outcrossing species is plainly ludicrous... at least to someone that does understand. Rick you have no clue of the work involved in determining QTLs... by your own admission just recently discoverred how to mix STS! Talk about putting the cart before the horse.

Espousing techniques you have not attempted, and have certainly not properly researched does no favours to the species we are trying to protect. We are the guardians of the genome, and with that comes a large responsibility. Please show our species some respect by learning before you become a teacher, so that your students can promote responsible breeding techniques and not further the damage to a genome already under threat.

I'm sorry I don't have time to elaborate further right now, but I hope that you will give this post some more consideration than you did my previous one.

Respectfully,
-Chimera

 

[englishrick]

i think terp profiles are worth collecting...

 

[englishrick]

i want to conserve the species just as you do,,,,but the way in witch we conserve that witch we want, devides us ,,,,

 

[englishrick]

i want to see us united!!

 

[englishrick]

united in our owng groups,,,,,,and different groups,, with different goals