Pure ZHO extraction solvent

[Loc Dog]

Page 2, clearly listed. There is phone number for consumer safety on page 1, if you want to question it. I do not need to be convinced.

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&ved=0CCkQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ncsu.edu%2Fehs%2Fwww99%2Fright%2FhandsMan%2Flab%2FPeroxide.pdf&ei=uMBNU6qrPPK-sQT_yICoCQ&usg=AFQjCNEkujPUaUoGStIcz3Jv0seaDNmHSA&sig2=hx9vrqPD3Ab2oZsJXM0g3g&bvm=bv.64764171,d.cWc

 

[Loc Dog]

Lewis, 3rd ed., 1993, p. 854

Reactivity Profile
Dimethyl ether is a colorless, highly flammable gas (b. p. -24° C), slightly toxic. Very dangerous fire and explosion hazard when exposed to flame, sparks, heat or strong oxidizers. Violent reaction with aluminum hydride, lithium aluminum hydride. Upon standing and exposure to air (oxygen) tendency to form explosive peroxides. When ethers containing peroxides are heated (distilled) they can detonate [Lewis, 3rd ed., 1993, p. 854].

Their website compares its flammability to cooking sherry.

 

[Crooked8]

Go joe, I neg repped you for being a prick while distributing your information. I simply stated you could have done the exact same thing without the tone you chose. Speaking downward towards people is like purposely adding lighter fluid to a fire. I am not a chemist, i literally have NO IDEA who is right or wrong though and i dont care. I dont run this product and i doubt i ever will. Bho is of little concern to me in general let alone some new zho thing. I saw disrespect and i called you on it. That is all. You may continue your discussion as you choose. I just think all of this information passing could go smoother if you choose a tone other than the one you were leading off with. If you think im wrong, thats fine, but go re read your post i neg repped and just know, that appears to me to be the way one would speak to someone they dont respect. Oh and i have no idea who loc dog is, he and i are not friends, he pmd me a few times regarding this matter as a safety issue. He is concerned and with good reason in my opinion. Check out my bho disaster thread, if anything along those lines could potentially occur, every facet of its possibility should be tested to ensure safety for everyone. Some extraction issues are destroying mmj reputation in a dramatic way that could easily get worse.

 

[SkyHighLer]

And you are wrong. I tried to explain why you're wrong about that pdf in a way you could understand, but instead of you understanding, Crooked8 negrepped me for saying so, thinking it was obvious you understood I guess. He did get me thinking - are you two pals or is neg rep at the drop of a hat in the name of righteousness just his MO? Here's another opportunity.
ITS A TYPO
GO TO PAGE 5
DIMETHYL ETHER IS NOW DIETHYL ETHER, WHICH WASN'T ON PAGE 2



In a desperate measure to find something that backs up however many dozens of posts on this you have now, you are finding every typo on the internet. It's diethylene glycol dimethyl ether, one line. one chemical. I think that trips up MSDS writers too. This is why there are references, because people don't get things right. Go to the very bottom of that page where they give their reference:

R.J. Kelly, "Review of Safety Guidelines for peroxide-forming Organic Chemicals", Chemical Health & Safety, September/October 1996, pp 28-36.

Here it is
http://www-ehs.ucsd.edu/lab/pdf/kelly_peroxides.pdf

DME is not listed anywhere. Not even in the long list of section D "chemicals that may form peroxides". It's a good reference, anyone wanting a good review of the subject should check it out.

A little righteous indignation seems appropriate to me, kudos to G.O. Joe for his discovery! The DME industry owes you... and since there is a huge push to make DME the world's renewable energy source, quite timely....


This guy's considered by many to be the master of love, and yet he still seems to have a little righteous indignation for those he just can't get through to... ;-)

"20 Then He began to rebuke the cities in which most of His mighty works had been done, because they did not repent: 21 “Woe to you, Chorazin! Woe to you, Bethsaida! For if the mighty works which were done in you had been done in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes. 22 But I say to you, it will be more tolerable for Tyre and Sidon in the day of judgment than for you. 23 And you, Capernaum, who are exalted to heaven, will be brought down to Hades; for if the mighty works which were done in you had been done in Sodom, it would have remained until this day. 24 But I say to you that it shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom in the day of judgment than for you.”

Matthew 11:20-24(NKJV)

 

[Loc Dog]

Go joe, I neg repped you for being a prick while distributing your information. I simply stated you could have done the exact same thing without the tone you chose. Speaking downward towards people is like purposely adding lighter fluid to a fire. I am not a chemist, i literally have NO IDEA who is right or wrong though and i dont care. I dont run this product and i doubt i ever will. Bho is of little concern to me in general let alone some new zho thing. I saw disrespect and i called you on it. That is all. You may continue your discussion as you choose. I just think all of this information passing could go smoother if you choose a tone other than the one you were leading off with. If you think im wrong, thats fine, but go re read your post i neg repped and just know, that appears to me to be the way one would speak to someone they dont respect. Oh and i have no idea who loc dog is, he and i are not friends, he pmd me a few times regarding this matter as a safety issue. He is concerned and with good reason in my opinion. Check out my bho disaster thread, if anything along those lines could potentially occur, every facet of its possibility should be tested to ensure safety for everyone. Some extraction issues are destroying mmj reputation in a dramatic way that could easily get worse.

Thank You!!! My intentions are for the best interest of ICMAG, GW, SkunkPharm, all of the wonderful people here, and anyone that might be to anxious to adopt, and be harmed/harm others. I know GW is very concerned about the number of people, not taking seriously, and injuring/killing, themselves and others.

I suggest contacting the lab that analyzed, and asking for the source of the information.

Second would be testing! Find some old DME, expose to heat, oxygen and moisture, over and over, for more than a year (the shelf life).

For the purpose intended, it should go through FDA approval, which equals many years, and probably a million dollars.

Crooked8, I think anyone considering BHO or similar, should have to watch videos of burn victims, and structures destroyed.

I would not want that for anyone!!!!!! Consider your loved ones that might be exposed.

Be Well and BE SAFE!!!!!!

 

[Loc Dog]

This thread is dead. Have not seen one post believing this. Any questions PM me. This thread should rot. Will check back occasionally, to protect the easily led.

It was started for ZHO, which has disappeared, after GW said it was methylene chloride, a known carcinogen. Give me a like if you agree, or them if you agree with them. Avoid posting here.

SH, the MSDS created from those cans claims it does, which supercedes anything else. MSDS is top of chain.

Except ones like mz12x has on their site, which states they are not responsible if it is wrong. Is that legal in US!!!!

Would you trust Korea with your health???? Hyundai needed 20 years to get it right.

Pay a reputable university to do a study. Would be cheaper than paying labs for long term work. Have GW pick the university, to increase credibility.

 

[jackgastche]

In my experience with mz12x (4 runs, 2 closed, 2 open) I am losing roughly 7-10% of my yield pre winterization. Its just not worth it for me as the cost is just a bit more than double what I'm paying for butane and the people that I bought it from instantly knew what I was using it for and weren't shy about hounding me for meds (not a fault of the product, just a small reason I won't be heading back to pick up anymore anytime soon).

It was a very quick and easy purge, but I don't have trouble purging butane.

If it works for you and you feel its safe, go for it, but if you're still using butane you shouldn't feel left out. Nothing too magical about this stuff.

 

[SkyHighLer]

Neither purezho.com or mz12x.com will open for me this morning...

Btw, the analysis GW had done on MZ12X was only $350. He has been reimbursed.

 

[CarefulGrower]

Sites are down from me as well.

I am still waiting on ZHO though (which I thought was announced first and started the whole 'dr.z' controversy), with the flammability and cost of mz12x, it's no benefit (to me) compared to butane. Hopefully the non-flammable touted ZHO appears one day...

 

[A6 Grower]

That site that IES posted had a MSDS for mz12x and now its not diemthyel ether, its MZ formula.... Also i will bash and hate on that site for as long as i live because of how he came on here and acted, to bad the mods deleted his posts, i think they should have stayed up as a example of how he handles business.

Sites are back up, they changed the msds to add MZ formula to the bottom after DME and Co2. Changing your MSDS every other week is really sketchy in my eyes, specially when its already on the public market.

 

[Gray Wolf]

Dimethyl Ether and Peroxides

Sorry to drag this out, but I needed the vacation, and was away from my resources, which in this case was someone who was qualified by training and experience on the subject of Dimethyl Ether, to answer how prone they were to forming peroxides, because I’m not.

While us’ns Joe has the organic chemistry training, his focus is biochemistry and he is short on field experience in organic chemistry. We agreed that it is a serious enough issue that I demurred further comment until I could talk to an amply accredited and experienced source.

I agree that maximum focus on safety is called for, but in balance with the actual level of threat. I think both sides are in agreement on the first part as well, but there appears to be unanswered questions creating disharmony on the “actual level of threat part.”

I have now found a forensic lab director, whom meets our experience and credentials criteria, but they prefer to remain anonymous, because their bread and butter is forensic work for state and police agencies, and would be career limiting to be our official authority.

I personally take all anonymous second hand experts with a grain of salt, so recommend that you always do the same, including now, but the context was as follows:

In our oral discussion, he said that Dimethyl Ether is on the list of things that form explosive peroxides, so the issue isn’t to be ignored, but was one of the least prone to peroxides. He said it was the longer chains that were problematic and that Dimethyl Ether is a Class B peroxide former.

He said that it is thought stable enough to be used as a propellant in hair spray, and is being experimentally blended with propane as a fuel.

Stored away from light, oxygen, and water, in a mild steel can, Class B peroxide formers are considered low risk for up to 12 months.

JD,

Took a look at dimethyl ether for peroxide formation. It’s considered to be stable, compared to other ethers. It is being explored as a propane replacement, so it’s pretty stable. Not nearly as much information as diethyl ether, but it has a much lower risk, and is used as a propellant occasionally. Here’s some info on it.

See attached supportive link to Thomas K Wray’s list, showing Dimethyl Ether as a Class B peroxide former:

https://mail.google.com/mail/u/0/?hl=en&shva=1#inbox/1456b33e77075c8c?projector=1

Sooooo, the way I’m reading it, it is probably not much of a peroxide hazard in open spraying, but might be in closed loop recycle if the issue wasn’t addressed.

There is a ready source of water from the material, and aspirated air from a leak can provide the oxygen, leaving it short a UV source for a perfect peroxide generator. Both Joe and Authoritive Anonymous Expert A say the stream could be treated to remove them, sooooo it suggests that is just another process detail. More on that, after I know more.

If that pans out, that possibly leaves the greatest hurdle to be finding elastomers that are suitable for our application, and resistant to Dimethyl Ether, which attacks most of them.

PTFE valve seals work, but we still need an oil-less recovery pump piston sleeve that is both Dimethyl ether resistant and able to seal for long periods between rebuilds, while being cycled back and forth rapidly in a cylinder sleeve, or another recovery process.

 

[SkyHighLer]

GW, your link doesn't work,
https://www.drs.illinois.edu/css/factsheets/pdf/PeroxidizableChemicalsReference.pdf

G.O. Joe, I didn't check far enough, and then you didn't check far enough, here's where the story changed regarding peroxide formation by dimethyl ether on concentration.

The link to the paper you said had no reference period to dimethyl ether, http://www-ehs.ucsd.edu/lab/pdf/kelly_peroxides.pdf lists it under Section D as dimethoxymethane, where it has the following attached Note,

"These chemicals easily form peroxides and should probably be considered under Part B."

Which they now are apparently...

Peace

 

[G.O. Joe]

See attached supportive link to Thomas K Wray’s list, showing Dimethyl Ether as a Class B peroxide former:

We've already gone over that one. Notice how diethyl (ethyl) ether is not on the list. The most common peroxide example. Translation: typo. At my job, a large chemical plant that uses hundreds of thousands of dollars of chemicals a week, the safety person is the most chemically ignorant person on the job short of the loaders and drivers. You cannot trust anyone in safety departments (people who write MSDS) to look around the internet and get things right - GW, YES IT DOES FORM PEROXIDES IT SAYS SO RIGHT HERE. Because people have no clue. The confusion of ethylene glycol dimethyl ether for having something to do with DME is a great example. Here's another one.

G.O. Joe, I didn't check far enough, and then you didn't check far enough, here's where the story changed regarding peroxide formation by dimethyl ether on concentration.

The link to the paper you said had no reference period to dimethyl ether, http://www-ehs.ucsd.edu/lab/pdf/kelly_peroxides.pdf lists it under Section D as dimethoxymethane, where it has the following attached Note,

These chemicals easily form peroxides and should probably be considered under Part B.

Which they now are apparently...

Not. It's another example of nonchemists not getting things right. Dimethoxymethane is unrelated to DME. It's also another example of something with peroxidizable -under normal conditions - hydrogen, which DME does not have, in this case the CH2 I mentioned earlier.
CH3OCH2OCH3

All the references posted in an attempt to label this as peroxidizable so far are bogus or not scientific and giving no references to science. This is probably not an accident. If you don't believe Wray is wrong even though diethyl ether does not appear anywhere, his references are the same as Bretherick's and include Bretherick. You can find your own copy at libgen.org by entering Bretherick's as title.

 

[SkyHighLer]

Don't you ever get stoned G.O. Joe? ;-) Thanks!

Do you have access at ACS? Here's the 1988 reference, http://pubs.acs.org/doi/abs/10.1021/ed065pA226

 

[G.O. Joe]

Understood. At this point, merely being up late at night is enough to fog my mind more than drugs and alcohol ever did when I was a teen.

From the start of organic chemistry classes, students are told of the dangers of peroxides in ethers, notably THF, DIPE, and diethyl ether. It's natural for all chemists even PhD's to think that all ethers form peroxides, though I'd expect a PhD to be cautious in saying specifically that DME is included.

A quote on peroxidizability, right after trashing safety officers
http://www.bnl.gov/esh/cms/PDF/peroxides.pdf

The auto-peroxidation potential of a compound is greatly influenced by adjacent and nearby functional groups. These relationships were first reported by Jackson et al (6) and subsequently refined by other authors (3, 15, 16, 22). Peroxide-forming compounds invariably contain an autooxidizable hydrogen atom that is activated by adjacent structural components and/or actinic radiation (not necessarily continuous). These compounds react with atmospheric oxygen under ambient conditions to initially form a hydroperoxide (3). Initially, the autocatalytic reaction proceeds very slowly, then the rate gradually increases to a maximum velocity.
Activated hydrogen atoms are often on a:
v Methylene group adjacent to an ethereal oxygen atom (-O-CH2-, e.g. diethyl ether, THF, dioxane, diglyme).
v Methylene group adjacent to a vinyl group or benzene ring (C=C-CH2- or Ph-CH2-, e.g. allyl or benzyl compounds).
v CH group adjacent to two ethereal oxygen atoms (-O-CH-O-, e.g. acetals or methylenedioxy compounds).
v CH group adjacent to two methylene groups (-CH2-CH-CH2-, e.g. isopropyl compounds and decahydronaphthalenes).
v CH group between a benzene ring and a methylene group (-CH2-CH-Ph, e.g. cumene and tetrahydronaphthalenes).
v A vinyl group (-C=CH2, e.g. vinyl compounds, dienes, styrenes or other monomers)

 

[mofeta]

Isn't the removal of peroxides from solvents trivial? Like passing it through an alumina column?

Don't these strips work pretty well also?

From my limited knowledge, DME doesn't form peroxides easily, but if you were cycling it a couple times a day for a year, hmm don't know. But like I said, trivial problem with a solution that is almost effortless and very effective.

 

[mofeta]

... MSDS created from those cans claims it does, which supercedes anything else. MSDS is top of chain.

Ha Ha! That's the funniest thing I've read today! MSDS are to chemistry what Justin Beiber is to music.

 

[Loc Dog]

Ha Ha! That's the funniest thing I've read today! MSDS are to chemistry what Justin Beiber is to music.

Read the end of the MSDS on their website. They have a disclaimer saying they are not responsible for anything, if it is not correct. MSDS's can have disclaimers????? PDF has been modified, with an editor. They put their logo on first page, and eliminated reactivity section

Is that legal????

I have zero interest in it. Website claims it is as flammable as cooking sherry!!!! It is rated same category as Butane on MSDS's

It can be filtered. But n-butane does not need to be, and does not create equipment gasket problems.

What is their selling point????

Their premier product pureZHO is no longer sold, since it contained methylene chloride, a known carcinogen.

I am tired of this. I can sleep at night and not worry about being wrong, since if I am. No lives are ruined, or lost.

GO Joe, you do not have to convince me, you have to convince GW. How do we know your credentials?????

Bottom line, do not be a guinea pig. Would you trust Korea???

Also, I know GW credentials. Anyone else's opinion, is just that. As is mine. I post direct references, to scholarly articles.

For all we know, SH, GO, and the new one, are all Dr. Z (LMFAO), or empoyee's.

If you recommended to someone, and the worst happened, would you take legal responsibility????? It is better to be cautious, then be foolish.

 

[Loc Dog]

Page 6 Stability section. By Dupont (you must know better than them) -

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=2&ved=0CDAQFjAB&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.aeropres.com%2Ffiles%2F7294FR%2520Dymel%2520A%2520%26%2520Isobutane%2520%28A-31%29%2520Blends.pdf&ei=k1BTU8DUC9TfsAS_3oHYDg&usg=AFQjCNEB2uxr01Jp-2bkxQQbr1PR3FsQFw&sig2=JCxWW4KdYqPYn-tozcueqQ&bvm=bv.65058239,d.cWc

There was a term in early PC days, called "Bleeding Edge Technology", meaning you would get cut, as early adopters.

Page 4 Stability-

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=...=pPvxoyxcqERi7Z8y1upDhw&bvm=bv.65058239,d.cWc

Page 4 and 5 -


http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=...=e3hZFB1EyIv9v9sOjqYsuQ&bvm=bv.65058239,d.cWc

Page 4, section 10
http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=...=PHA24rVG_k5RnPygTrQCug&bvm=bv.65058239,d.cWc

You have burden of proof! Only get hearsay.

 

[Loc Dog]

GW, your link doesn't work,
https://www.drs.illinois.edu/css/factsheets/pdf/PeroxidizableChemicalsReference.pdf

G.O. Joe, I didn't check far enough, and then you didn't check far enough, here's where the story changed regarding peroxide formation by dimethyl ether on concentration.

The link to the paper you said had no reference period to dimethyl ether, http://www-ehs.ucsd.edu/lab/pdf/kelly_peroxides.pdf lists it under Section D as dimethoxymethane, where it has the following attached Note,

"These chemicals easily form peroxides and should probably be considered under Part B."

Which they now are apparently...

Peace

?