I only run the ionic bases. With ionic boost and monster bloom in flowering. I run a 4 week veg. I have to use cal/mag in veg. I average .7-1.0 gpw strain depending. I run 2 plants per light. Traditional 1000 watt hps.
Premium nutrients - Real deal or hype???
- Thread starter chomsky
- Start date
I only run the ionic bases. With ionic boost and monster bloom in flowering. I run a 4 week veg. I have to use cal/mag in veg. I average .7-1.0 gpw strain depending. I run 2 plants per light. Traditional 1000 watt hps.
Really? Cause many agro-companies (the big ones, those for farmers and common garden veggies and ornamentals) still use the older fully synthetic chelates. I already wondered why they don't switch to GLDA aka Dissolvine GL which is probably the best and healthiest (eco-friendly and otherwise) chelate available at the moment.
Just when you think you're on to something, someone else beats you to it... ah well...
Absolem
Active member
Really? Cause many agro-companies (the big ones, those for farmers and common garden veggies and ornamentals) still use the older fully synthetic chelates. I already wondered why they don't switch to GLDA aka Dissolvine GL which is probably the best and healthiest (eco-friendly and otherwise) chelate available at the moment.
Just when you think you're on to something, someone else beats you to it... ah well...
Hello Only Ornamental. Mad respect for you here and at TLG. Reading your posts has given me great insight into plants. Thank You. I posted a question in the "Advanced" section. I was hoping you would be around. Cheers.
Really? Cause many agro-companies (the big ones, those for farmers and common garden veggies and ornamentals) still use the older fully synthetic chelates. I already wondered why they don't switch to GLDA aka Dissolvine GL which is probably the best and healthiest (eco-friendly and otherwise) chelate available at the moment.
Just when you think you're on to something, someone else beats you to it... ah well...
This stuff is a synthetic glutamic acid. made from the process of MSG, which uses GMO's!!!!! MTF! It qualifies as organic as an ingredient for making soap, not as an agricultural nutrient chelating agent according to the companies website. Not sure how they got that one by...
Amino acids are a far superiour chelating method and glutamic acid along with glycine are some of the best to have in agriculture. One of the best in the market is Albion, they also have an organic line. Baicor is just as good if not better (same chemist made them) and is half the price.
https://www.akzonobel.com/dissolvin...hure_Dissolvine_print_071014_tcm108-88978.pdf
Absolem
Active member
That's strange. Because Dissolvine is partnered with Yara providing micronutrients for them.
http://www.yara.us/agriculture/products/other/2498-dissolvine-e-fe-13/
Akzonobel markets them for ag.
https://www.akzonobel.com/micronutrients/products/mn_zn_cu_ca_mg/
http://www.plantproducts.com/ca/images/13_dissolvinee-fe-13_user_rec_sheet.pdf
Here in Peru as well. They make the stuff here. Pure GMO bugs to make those ferments. They use sugar cane waste (bagasse) as the food supply.
From the internet.... Since 1957, MSG has also been produced using genetically modified bacteria (genetically modified organisms or GMO's), that secrete glutamic acid through their cell walls. MSG can be extracted from any food that contains protein.
Thanks for the advice, I agree its good to get a few opinions to.
I did not know that trichomes were composed of mostly silica.
I might give the stuff a go
True, glutamic acid (which is used in the form of MSG as flavour enhancer) can be derived by fermentation with the aid of genetically modified micro-organisms but many producers of glutamic acid use either microbes modified by means of biotechnology (not gene technology) or such derived by selection. Either way, in the end product, there are no GMOs present and the yields are a lot higher and the costs and environmental impact way lower than trying to extract and purify single amino acids out of waste proteins. And even if, many other amino acids are also derived from GMOs or indeed extracted from protein wastes... waste obtained from corn, wheat, or rice starch production and unfortunately, these cereals are often GMOs (real GMOs, not just biotech-modified like the microbes).
An alternative would be EDTA and co. which are 100% synthetic and nearly non-biodegradable. The amino acid derived chelates such as GLDA are at least based on a high percentage of renewable resources and not mineral oil, use green chemistry, and do not accumulate in nature. That counts at least for something (IMHO a lot). If you don't approve of that compromise, you shouldn't use mineral based fertilisers and many organic ones at all! Given their current mode of mining, purification, transportation, and so on, they pollute and destroy nature way more than green chemicals and fermenter based products.
Using amino acid blends obtained from hydrolysis of non-GMOs would be even more eco-friendly but they often don't chelate but complex metals. On one hand, cheap products often contain only partially complexed amino acids or an excess of amino acids whilst the good and hence expensive ones require more than just add-stir-sell. And then you've got a product with a low logK0 which is best used in alkaline soil...
Well, probably HIDS or MGDA are better in hydroponics because of less likelihood to accumulate in plants. GLDA seems to require some time for microbial adjustment to be really degraded... and as always, in planta data are lacking cause nobody asks for it and we're consuming shit till someone dies and the world goes "you should have known".
Bottom line is, if you're talking about premium nutrients, do it right and either go truly organic or use green chemicals such as GLDA and co.
An alternative would be EDTA and co. which are 100% synthetic and nearly non-biodegradable. The amino acid derived chelates such as GLDA are at least based on a high percentage of renewable resources and not mineral oil, use green chemistry, and do not accumulate in nature. That counts at least for something (IMHO a lot). If you don't approve of that compromise, you shouldn't use mineral based fertilisers and many organic ones at all! Given their current mode of mining, purification, transportation, and so on, they pollute and destroy nature way more than green chemicals and fermenter based products.
Using amino acid blends obtained from hydrolysis of non-GMOs would be even more eco-friendly but they often don't chelate but complex metals. On one hand, cheap products often contain only partially complexed amino acids or an excess of amino acids whilst the good and hence expensive ones require more than just add-stir-sell. And then you've got a product with a low logK0 which is best used in alkaline soil...
Well, probably HIDS or MGDA are better in hydroponics because of less likelihood to accumulate in plants. GLDA seems to require some time for microbial adjustment to be really degraded... and as always, in planta data are lacking cause nobody asks for it and we're consuming shit till someone dies and the world goes "you should have known".
Bottom line is, if you're talking about premium nutrients, do it right and either go truly organic or use green chemicals such as GLDA and co.
In the US, there are good supplies of non-gmo based hydrolized soy at 16% N, all based on aminoacids. There is 12.2% N from hydrolized fish, all based on aminoacids.
Lots to choose from in the states! This way folks can make up their own mixes and not have to use EDTA (which is a huge molecule and not very mobile in the plant) or GMO made glutamic acids....
A very little goes a long way, constant applications of small quantities feeds microbiology as well as the plant.
Protein hydrolysates may or may not qualify as chelate. Partially hydrolysed proteins aka peptides might work whereas products containing only free amino acids simply don't if you just mix them with metal salts. It works for EDTA but not for simple amino acids ;( .
Not saying amino acids aren't good for plants and microbes, they are, but you can not replace EDTA (or GLDA) by adding hydrolysed proteins. If it "works", then you wouldn't even need EDTA in the first place .
But we're deviating from the subject which is "Premium Nutrients" and these are supposed to not leading to precipitates and hence likely to contain chelates or complexes...
Not saying amino acids aren't good for plants and microbes, they are, but you can not replace EDTA (or GLDA) by adding hydrolysed proteins. If it "works", then you wouldn't even need EDTA in the first place
.But we're deviating from the subject which is "Premium Nutrients" and these are supposed to not leading to precipitates and hence likely to contain chelates or complexes...
Protein hydrolysates may or may not qualify as chelate. Partially hydrolysed proteins aka peptides might work whereas products containing only free amino acids simply don't if you just mix them with metal salts. It works for EDTA but not for simple amino acids ;( .
Not saying amino acids aren't good for plants and microbes, they are, but you can not replace EDTA (or GLDA) by adding hydrolysed proteins. If it "works", then you wouldn't even need EDTA in the first place
But we're deviating from the subject which is "Premium Nutrients" and these are supposed to not leading to precipitates and hence likely to contain chelates or complexes...
The best rated chelates out there according to USDA research are amino acid chelates from Albion. EDTA works, it painted a nice color, but very little yield differences due to lower mobility in the plant. To my understanding, a great part of GH is made by Albion.
As the guys from Simplot who sell the soy stuff were saying, the soy aminos clean out irrigation line carbonate and METAL build up. We see the same thing here in Peru in my farm with the fish.
Maybe try some of the Albion aminos from protein, we mix them all together even with extra manganese and zinc sulfates. Baicor works real well too. Same stuff, aminos from protein. I guess there is some trade secrets at work because it never leaves residue at the bottom of our mixing tank nor in the bottom of our 4000 ltr sprayer which does have a great agitation system.
Here is what the manufacturer wrote:
Fish Soluble derived peptides have not been denatured and
remain highly bio-active. As a result of the selective nature of the membrane filtration manufacturing process, the
hydrophilic product contains a source of fat acids, optimum levels of digestible nutrients and low levels of biogenic
amines.
Whatta ya think?
I do know that there is negative response to some aminos. Always do trials!
Theres only one way to definitively prove or disprove the validity of higher priced products and thats to test them against the alternatives with all other things being equal.
I haven't grown enough with more basic or even natural products to say Ive done that test.
Im a sandal wearer at heart and only use the high tech, intensive farming, illuminati methods I do because I can only micro grow these days. When I move, which I plan to, I will ditch it all for all organic greenhouse growing. Bat shit is about as advanced as it will get.
I haven't grown enough with more basic or even natural products to say Ive done that test.
Im a sandal wearer at heart and only use the high tech, intensive farming, illuminati methods I do because I can only micro grow these days. When I move, which I plan to, I will ditch it all for all organic greenhouse growing. Bat shit is about as advanced as it will get.
How far from harvest were those photos (which are impressive)?
What type of fade did you have at the end?
chomsky
Member
They are still going. They have about another month to go.
See comments within your quote
.
And what do you want with 90 or so elements and are there non-natural ones found on this earth? BTW there are waaaaay more minerals around but that's a different story.
You just need the essential ones and many of which interact with amino acids you simply ditch on soil. It's not true chelation though but interactions which might help assimilation. And that's where GLDA and company come into play: These true chelates can simply be added to the water and will chelate away many of the metals. That's who phytosanitation works . IIRC amino acids have been tested too but aren't quite as effective.
The best rated chelates out there according to USDA research are amino acid chelates from Albion. They are indeed well renowned. You should read some of their publications on THEIR site. Sure enough, they're bragging like anyone else and it's hard to tell if holding hundreds of patents and financing hundreds of studies makes their products better (it certainly tells us that they have money and that does come from somewhere). EDTA works, it painted a nice color, but very little yield differences due to lower mobility in the plant. Hasn't anything to do with mobility within the plant. It's not much larger than an amino acids chelate (i.e. 2-3 amino acids). EDTA is somewhat plant toxic due to accumulation (which was believed to not happen for a long time). To my understanding, a great part of GH is made by Albion. Possible, their aa chelates are well made and they sell to many companies worldwide.
As the guys from Simplot who sell the soy stuff were saying, the soy aminos clean out irrigation line carbonate and METAL build up. We see the same thing here in Peru in my farm with the fish. Sure, amino acids and peptides from partially hydrolysed proteins do help against scale and salt build up but that has nothing or at least not much to do with chelation. Peptides work like polyanionic agents such as polyaspartate or synthetic polycarboxylates added to laundry detergents or humic and fulvic acid. They act as cation exchange site via ionic interactions and not by complexation.
Maybe try some of the Albion aminos from protein, we mix them all together even with extra manganese and zinc sulfates. If you mix amino acids and zinc sulfate you get a mix of amino acids and zinc sulfate
Here is what the manufacturer wrote:
Fish Soluble derived peptides have not been denatured and
remain highly bio-active. Peptides are usually obtained by partial hydrolysis of proteins. Hydrolysis IS denaturation by definition. Well possible that they are (become or remain or whatever) biologically active (obviously depending on their definition of active). I don't see a way of obtaining non-denaturated peptides from fish without major efforts in costs, material, and time. VERY unlikely that they mix their fish with buffers at 4°C and ultrafiltrate. I did that kinda things in the lab and can roughly estimate what it would take to produce on a big scale (and my heart starts bleeding when I imagine that the product would be ditched on some field crops). As a result of the selective nature of the membrane filtration manufacturing process, the hydrophilic product contains a source of fat acids, optimum levels of digestible nutrients and low levels of biogenic amines. That, I think, is true and honest but it tells me that they know or test shit regarding non-denaturated peptides.
Whatta ya think?
22? How do you get that number? Okay, I know how but it includes pyrrolysine which usually isn't present in terrestrial organic material and can't be used by the majority of living organisms. There are a few other non-proteinogenic amino acids present in everyday life which can be quite beneficial for plants
.And what do you want with 90 or so elements and are there non-natural ones found on this earth? BTW there are waaaaay more minerals around but that's a different story.
You just need the essential ones and many of which interact with amino acids you simply ditch on soil. It's not true chelation though but interactions which might help assimilation. And that's where GLDA and company come into play: These true chelates can simply be added to the water and will chelate away many of the metals. That's who phytosanitation works
. IIRC amino acids have been tested too but aren't quite as effective.
